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GoZips
deleted
mes102
QUOTE(GoZips @ Oct 28 2011, 09:45 PM) *
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Oct 28 2011, 09:12 PM) *

Did not take Fox News (sic) to pull the story.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/28/profe...ate-university/

apparently just click on the story right below "Most Active"...not sure why it's not working...
Keener'92
QUOTE(mes102 @ Oct 28 2011, 09:53 PM) *
QUOTE(GoZips @ Oct 28 2011, 09:45 PM) *
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Oct 28 2011, 09:12 PM) *

Did not take Fox News (sic) to pull the story.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/10/28/profe...ate-university/

apparently just click on the story right below "Most Active"...not sure why it's not working...

Links with the name of that Portage County school in their url will not work because they get changed to Can't.
Jacob M
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!
RootforRoo44
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.
Ada Zip
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.

Z.I.P.
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 02:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.

Mahalo, Ada! wave.gif biggrin.gif
meatwad
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 08:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.


After rereading this topic I see what you are saying, but I think the implication of what he is saying goes beyond a nation-state, right?
Dave in Green
What exactly does "death to Israel" mean to those who utter the words? Is it a political statement about destroying a country or a religious statement representing "holy war" on people practicing a different religion?

A USA Today article quotes the following:

Via e-mail to Inside Higher Ed, Pino gave his rationale as follows: "What I spoke was for the sake of the children of Palestine, and no other reason. The only politics I have are 'There is no God but God, and Mohammed is His Messenger.' " Asked about the controversy over his comments, he quoted the Koran: "They try to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will allow nothing but the perfection of that light, though the disbelievers dislike it."

USA Today Story

If people with different religious beliefs cannot exist side-by-side in peace with respect for each other's beliefs, there is little room for negotiation or solution to religious-based discord.

Dave in Green
Server hiccup.
Doug Snyder
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 05:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.



I am not denying that what you are referring to does not happen...but can you give me some specific instances of professors doing this?? I want to write letters to those universities as well. Thanks
Dave in Green
Doug, here are the internet results I got for the following Google search terms:

"Death to Saudi Arabia" = 71 results

"Death to Iran" = About 32,600 results

"Death to Palestine" = About 53,900 results

"Death to Israel" = About 4,930,000 results
Ada Zip
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Nov 1 2011, 10:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 05:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.



I am not denying that what you are referring to does not happen...but can you give me some specific instances of professors doing this?? I want to write letters to those universities as well. Thanks


Doug, I do not have any instances neither am I interested in finding them for you or debating this topic any further. I was merely stating that opposing a political state is not the same as opposing a race or a religion.


Doug Snyder
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 08:51 PM) *
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Nov 1 2011, 10:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 05:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.



I am not denying that what you are referring to does not happen...but can you give me some specific instances of professors doing this?? I want to write letters to those universities as well. Thanks


Doug, I do not have any instances neither am I interested in finding them for you or debating this topic any further. I was merely stating that opposing a political state is not the same as opposing a race or a religion.



Hate is hate. Teachers and professors should be held to a higher standard and should never espouse hate. Period.
Yaznasty
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Nov 2 2011, 12:17 AM) *
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 08:51 PM) *
QUOTE(Doug Snyder @ Nov 1 2011, 10:37 PM) *
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 1 2011, 05:35 PM) *
QUOTE(RootforRoo44 @ Nov 1 2011, 07:38 PM) *
QUOTE(Jacob M @ Nov 1 2011, 11:39 AM) *
I can't believe he still has a job! Sure he has free speech as an American, but if Can't feels that what he said goes against their values (or lack thereof) they have every right to fire him! I guarantee if he had gone in and said "Death to Homosexuals" they would have fired him! I'm sick of cowering in fear to Radical Muslims!


can you imagine if a college professor went to a black college students meeting and yelled "death to all (N word)"?! Or if i went to a muslim students meeting/muslim speaker and yelled "death to islam"?

Yeah...what a disgusting double-standard.

This loon has been doing crap like this for years though.


I don't usually like to get into this kind of debates on this board but you leave me no options.
Israel is a political state, not a race, not a religion. So your comparison to someone yelling death to N word/Islam has no ground.

Yelling death to Israel compares to yelling death to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Palestine, which, by the way, happens everyday and nobody cares.



I am not denying that what you are referring to does not happen...but can you give me some specific instances of professors doing this?? I want to write letters to those universities as well. Thanks


Doug, I do not have any instances neither am I interested in finding them for you or debating this topic any further. I was merely stating that opposing a political state is not the same as opposing a race or a religion.



Hate is hate. Teachers and professors should be held to a higher standard and should never espouse hate. Period.


Ada is correct, this isn't about death to the Jewish people, but the elimination of an out of control government that has too much power and abuses it at the cost of innocent lives. Blurring the line between Jews and Israel is a common mistake that comes out of a lack of knowledge of the conflict, which Americans have a distorted image of because of the bias presented in the media.

Also, there is a difference between unfounded hate and hatred towards an entity that has destroyed so many lives. Hating the Israeli government is much closer to hating Al-Qaeda than hating black people or homosexuals, despite what both sides of the media tell you.

I'd write more but I've gotta run, I think I hear the moderators coming and it's past my bed time.
Yaznasty
Here is a very well timed article that supports a few of my points.

""Pino’s view of Israel is “harsh, and I completely disagree with it, but it’s not illegal,” said Wilson Huhn, a specialist in constitutional law at the University of Akron."

He is an Akron professor, so maybe you will be less inclined to think he is wrong

Some faculty nationwide have been fired for “saying something inappropriate, but that was usually in the classroom,” said Sara Kilpatrick, executive director of the Ohio Conference of the American Association of University Professors.

“Outside the classroom, it’s a grayer area of whether this was a faculty member acting as a faculty member or a private citizen.”

I also agree with this. Someone mentioned that educators should be held to a higher standard, but I don't think you forfeit your right to free speech by being an educator. Now, in the class room your job is to be a neutral voice, and if you aren't doing that, then there is a problem. I wonder if this was a problem in the case of this guy?

"In the case of Pino, students have not complained about his teaching or for “taking his politics into the classroom,” said Ken Bindas, chairman of the Can't State history department."

But, whether or not he was in a position that he could say this, it was still hate speech right?

"In addition, his language would not be considered hate speech, because he did not make a credible threat to the speaker, said Jonathan Entin, a professor of law and political science at Case Western Reserve University.

“It is a point of view, as controversial as it may be, about policy. That will afford it pretty broad latitude,” he said."

Dave in Green
QUOTE(Yaznasty @ Nov 2 2011, 02:22 AM) *
Ada is correct, this isn't about death to the Jewish people, but the elimination of an out of control government that has too much power and abuses it at the cost of innocent lives. Blurring the line between Jews and Israel is a common mistake that comes out of a lack of knowledge of the conflict, which Americans have a distorted image of because of the bias presented in the media.

Also, there is a difference between unfounded hate and hatred towards an entity that has destroyed so many lives. Hating the Israeli government is much closer to hating Al-Qaeda than hating black people or homosexuals, despite what both sides of the media tell you.

I'd write more but I've gotta run, I think I hear the moderators coming and it's past my bed time.

So, if we can't believe what we read in the media, where do we go for factual data on which to form an educated opinion? For example, where did you get the data that led you to the conclusion that the government of Israel is primarily to blame for the problems in the Middle East?
Yaznasty
QUOTE(Dave in Green @ Nov 2 2011, 11:56 AM) *
QUOTE(Yaznasty @ Nov 2 2011, 02:22 AM) *
Ada is correct, this isn't about death to the Jewish people, but the elimination of an out of control government that has too much power and abuses it at the cost of innocent lives. Blurring the line between Jews and Israel is a common mistake that comes out of a lack of knowledge of the conflict, which Americans have a distorted image of because of the bias presented in the media.

Also, there is a difference between unfounded hate and hatred towards an entity that has destroyed so many lives. Hating the Israeli government is much closer to hating Al-Qaeda than hating black people or homosexuals, despite what both sides of the media tell you.

I'd write more but I've gotta run, I think I hear the moderators coming and it's past my bed time.

So, if we can't believe what we read in the media, where do we go for factual data on which to form an educated opinion? For example, where did you get the data that led you to the conclusion that the government of Israel is primarily to blame for the problems in the Middle East?


I guess I didn't distinguish between print media, internet media, and television media. I do not watch the news. I feel as though the major TV networks have an agenda and have a very effective way to spread what they believe. If you are going to learn about a certain topic, there are a plethora of ways to find what you are looking for on the internet. I like to read other sources from other countries besides the big news sources in the US. It is a better way to get a different perspective of what is really going on in the world. I know reading other source material is not as convenient as turning on the television and watching a news program, but if you are really trying to delve into a particular world topic, I think it is the better route. I guess really, every news outlet probably has some agenda, but if you want a comprehensive view of what the conflict is, reading multiple sources to put the pieces together is the best way to do it. With the topic of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, that is something for which I have done a great deal of research, in and out of school, because I have personal ties to it and I care about what is going on in the Middle East. I can understand though that if you're not heavily interested in what is happening you are not going to spend a bunch of time trying to connect the dots. I could share my views about Israel if you'd like, I assure you they are nothing close to "death to Israel" but they would probably still be enough for me to be lambasted for being crazy.
Dr Z
QUOTE(Dave in Green @ Nov 2 2011, 11:56 AM) *
So, if we can't believe what we read in the media, where do we go for factual data on which to form an educated opinion?
Reminds me of a time back when I was 17. I went to an Indians game with a friend and was having a discussion the next day with my Dad about how many strike outs a certain pitcher had. I counted them at the game and the newspaper was wrong, but there was no telling him. It was printed in the newspaper, so it had to be correct. laughing.gif
Hilltopper
My daughter is Post Secondary student at UA. She is taking a Freshman level english composition class. She had to write a paper about an event in her life that she felt has shaped her as a person. When she got back the first draft from the professor, there were a few corrections that needed to be made in regards to the composition of the paper. That was to be expected. What was disturbing was the lengthy note from the professor regarding the topic of the paper. The professor scolded her for her view points and called her immature in her thought process. She then told her that she was in a similar situation and that my daughter was wrong in how she handled it. This is where the professor crossed the line. It's not her job to dictate her morals on my kid. The class is about learning how to compose the written word, not a referendum on my daughters personal beliefs. If Professor Pino is able to just stick to teaching the "facts" so to speak that is fine. I seriously doubt that someone who is as passionate as he is is capable of keeping his political agenda out of the classroom. My kid isn't attending college for political indoctrination.
Dave in Green
@Yaznasty, I agree with you completely that the best way to get a comprehensive view on anything is to explore multiple sources and arrive at your own conclusions. There are many different perspectives on every issue, and none by itself is likely to be 100% accurate. But it does take a lot of time, and none of us has the time to thoroughly research all the important issues on our own. Ultimately, we have to try to find readily available sources of information that prove over time to be more accurate than others on many different subjects.

On the subject of the Middle East, I've done of a lot of reading from a lot of different sources over the years and have not reached the same conclusion that you have -- that the government of Israel is primarily responsible for most of the problems in the area. Even if Israel did not exist, Middle Eastern countries would still be warring with each other and creating innocent victims. The recent wars between Iran and Iraq and invasion of Kuwait by Iraq are only the most recent examples. The various tribes and religious sects in the area and within each country's borders have been warring with each other for centuries.

As a country, Israel is essentially the newest neighbor in a very tough neighborhood where the weak are regularly trampled by the strong. The Jewish people, who primarily populate Israel, learned a very tough lesson in Nazi Germany. They cannot afford to be weak in a tough neighborhood full of bullies. The very survival of Israel and its citizens relies on a strong self-defense.

Now, it's certainly fair to question whether the government of Israel has gone too far in some of its actions intended to protect its citizens. There's a diversity of opinion among Israeli citizens on the best course of action to secure peace in the area. Unlike its neighbors, Israel is a democracy, so the citizens regularly elect different political parties with different philosophies in search of the best route to peace.

But no matter what Israel does, the fact remains that they live in a tough neighborhood full of bullies where violence is a common solution to disagreements. Until that attitude changes among all parties, and until every country in the area agrees that every other country in the area has the right to exist, there will continue to be conflict.

I'm interested in everyone's views on the Middle East. I think it's in everyone's best interests to explore all reasonable courses of action to end the perpetual conflict in the area, as the danger of a regional conflict growing into a global war continues to increase.
GoZips
Who is kidding who?

Islam has fomented hate and treachery through out the world for 1,400 years.

Israel is a current popular target of Islam. The blame for terrorism and hatred
rests squarely on Islam.

Political correctness allows this piece of crap to hold on to his job a Cantville.
Had he spoken against blacks or homosexuals they would have fired him in
less than a minute.

Popular targets for evil are Christianity, the Catholic Church, Conservatives,
Pro-Life, anything that represents goodness, a black man who is a Conservative,
fair play, justice and America.

How long would the occupy wall street demonstrators be allowed to foist their
views on the world if they were the TEA Party? Done in a New York minute.
Ada Zip
QUOTE(GoZips @ Nov 3 2011, 10:54 AM) *
Who is kidding who?

Islam has fomented hate and treachery through out the world for 1,400 years.

Israel is a current popular target of Islam. The blame for terrorism and hatred
rests squarely on Islam.

Political correctness allows this piece of crap to hold on to his job a Cantville.
Had he spoken against blacks or homosexuals they would have fired him in
less than a minute.



No body is kidding no body!

In my book, Ignorance is defined as the situation when some one is so arrogant to think that his opinion is absolutely true and that he knows it all and he can judge others.
Gozips is saying that more than a billion people in this world support a religion that fomented hate and treachery and doing that, the religion survived for 1400 years!
He is also saying that the academic system, and the administration of Can't state and the education system in Ohio are wrong and he is right. Also the Ph D holding gentleman is now a piece of crap because he doesn't share his point of view about the political state of Israel.

A wise man once said: whenever i debate a wise person, I may win or lose the debate. However, every time i debate an ignorant, I lose the battle. So sure gozips, you're not wrong! everyone else is.
Yaznasty
Dave, first of all I'd like to say that it is great to hear that someone is interested in having this conversation and is willing to share viewpoints and listen to different perspectives rather than just reducing the whole thing to being as simple as "all Islam's fault." I think that second line of thinking is what has lead to most of hate and misunderstanding that exists in the world today.

Now on to the topic. Palestinians are currently entrenched in a battle (figurative battle, not actually warfare) to be recognized as a state. After Israel was established in '48, many Arabs held on to their angry feelings and were violent in trying to protest the state of Israel. Within the last 15-20 year the Palestinian Liberation Organization has denounced violence and has instead focused on diplomacy and building institutions to help further their argument for statehood. Palestinian leadership saw that violence was ineffective and that pushed them to adopt diplomatic methods and try to negotiate with Israel, often though help from the United States. The big issues that have plagued the peace process are boarders, settlements, right of Palestinians to return to the land that once belonged to them, and the status of East Jerusalem as the capital of a future Palestinian state. There was one point where an agreement was almost met in 2000, but the then leader of the PLO felt that the conditions were not right and that accepting this deal would be settling for less than they should receive.

The issue with the boarders is that while Israel says it is willing to recognize a Palestinian state, it still wants to be able to patrol the boarder between Palestine and Jordan. How can a sovereign nation have another nation patrolling their boarders? The issue with East Jerusalem is that for much of the previous negotiations, Palestinians were promised that East Jerusalem, home to several Muslim holy sites and a predominantly Arab area, would be given to them as the capital of their state. Now, the right-wing Israeli government asserts that "there is one Jerusalem, there has always been one Jerusalem, there is no east and west, it is one city that cannot be divided." The issue with the settlements is that in the West Bank, the area that is supposed to be sovereign Palestinian land, Israel comes in and bulldozes villages and erects new Jewish neighborhoods. These illegal neighborhoods are spread throughout the West Bank and have effectively changed the facts on the ground. Now for negotiations about boarders to be had, you have to consider the settlements which dig deep into Palestinian territory. Furthermore, the settlements effect the conflict because of settler violence. It is not uncommon for these settlers to go into the Arab villages and burn crops, vandalize property, and even burn mosques. Talk about a rough neighborhood. There is also the "security wall." There is a giant wall the runs through the West Bank dividing it from Israel for "security purposes." The issue with this, however, is that the way the wall was constructed, much of it actually lies on Palestinian land, dividing families and dividing people from their own property. There are also checkpoints that lie throughout the WB. These checkpoints are operated by young Israeli soldiers who will will detain Arabs for whatever they see fit. It becomes very difficult for Palestinians to travel to different parts of the WB because they can sometimes be held up for hours.

Now the most recent demand that the Israeli leadership has put on the Palestinian leadership is the demand for Israel to be recognized as a Jewish State. Now, on the outside, it would appear as though not accepting this is stubborn and perhaps shows a lack of willingness to accept Jews. Actually, the reason why the Palestinian Authority won't do this is because that will give the Israeli leadership freedom to enact laws to treat Arabs in Israel as second class citizens, something it has already tried doing. Simply put, Israel always says it is willing to negotiate for peace with Palestinians, but it has implemented policies that make coming to the negotiating table almost impossible. How can you say you are willing to help establish a Palestinian state when at the same time you are building on land for that future state?

So what is the United States' role in all this? Well the US has on many occasions expressed its unwavering support for Israel. How is a country going to be an effective mediator when it has unwavering support for one of the parties? The US refuses to ever not support Israel in something. This has never been truer than in the Palestinian's recent bid for statehood at the UN. The PLO figured that since Israel won't really negotiate, they will just go to the UN to try to be recognized as a state. Now, while many countries have supported this bid, the US has said that it will veto a bid in the security council for a Palestinian state no matter what, because the US sees it as a unilateral move and the only way to achieve peace is through negotiation, which as I have shown is extremely difficult. The US will not budge on this issue, but does it seem fair? How can we, the nation that preaches democracy and freedom suppress this country from acquiring its freedom the same way we achieved freedom? The United Nations Educational, Scientific, and Cultural Organization just admitted Palestine as a member. They are now a member of a UN organization, which is a massive achievement. They won 107-14 with fiftysome countries abstaining. 14 countries in the entire world vetoed this with the US being one of them. So do you know what we did? We just withdrew the $60 million in aid we were going to give to that organization. Why is democracy only fair when the outcome is the one we want?

How can the United States do this in good faith? Well although I don't have the number in front of me, there is a strong belief that it is because of the Israel lobby. There are a lot of people and companies with big wallets who come election time are willing to support the candidates who will throw the most support behind Israel. That's the name of the game. Either do what the man with the checkbook says, or say goodbye to your position. Can't blame the politicians too much for that. Who wouldn't want to keep their job? Can't blame the lobbies too much either. What's the point in having money if you aren't going to use it to get what you want? Unfortunately what they want comes at a cost of many others' happiness and well being.

And this, my friends, is why the Middle East "hates" the United States. After 9/11 there was much talk of "they hate our way of life, they hate our freedoms," etc, but that is all rubbish. Many individuals in the Middle East hate that we give undying support to the country that has been oppressing other Arabs and Muslims for far too long. They see our freedom, and they don't hate it, but they wonder why it is good enough for us but that we prevent them from having it. Furthermore the US for a long time supported oppressive rulers like Hosni Mubarak and Saddam Hussein. These rulers were not oppressive because they were strict Muslims, Islam had nothing to do with it. They were oppressive because they were power hungry, and the United States took care of them because they feared what would happen if the popular rulers came into power.

Someone will probably say "well what about Hamas? You can't tell me they have been peaceful," so I'll just bring it up myself. Funny thing is Hamas initially got funding from Israel in order for them to rival the PLO as a way to divide Palestinians. It worked, but I'd say it wasn't a good experiment. If you look at the numbers though, Hamas has reduced their violence. They definitely still allow violence to occur though, which is wrong, but again, I think if you look at it in context you see why. This is a more conservative group and they see the negotiations as going nowhere. Israel used to occupy the Gaza strip, but because of that violence from Hamas, Israel left that area. So technically they got what they wanted right? I am NOT saying it is right, but they don't see themselves as terrorists, they see themselves as freedom fighters. Again, I know it may seem like a stretch, but in many ways it is similar to the US's own struggle for freedom (a weaker power using less formal and less accepted means of warfare to obtain freedom from their oppressor). Furthermore, while we only hear about the violence caused by Hamas, we do not hear at all about the programs they use to provide for the Palestinian people. They do a lot to provide and have various welfare programs. Again, please don't misconstrue this as me condoning violence against civilians. I don't believe that is ever acceptable.

Some Arab leadership genuinely dislike the US for our support of Israel against the Palestinians. Others piggyback off the Palestinian cause when in reality they do not care. I do not really have as much knowledge on the entire Middle East as I do on the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. I hope this provided some insight for anyone who managed to read the whole thing. Wow I wrote a lot. Is it time for that basketball game yet?
Doug Snyder
@ yaznasty

I live in Bali most of the time. Although it is a Muslim country, Bali is 90% Hindu. I know many Muslims and consider many friends. Since we do not get typical US TV (I went 5 years in the US without TV), I get most of my information over the internet. I do read and watch a little Aljazeera and Sky News, BBC, CNN as well as others that are available in Bali. I think you are wrong to assume that no one does their homework.

Life's experiences will play a huge role on how people view issues/events. People often say that the media is biased. Yea...sure it is. The question is are they lying or manipulating. I don't think so. Look at the recent World Series games. Game 6 was a classic. The St. Louis papers made Freese out to be a hero. He worked the count and drove a pitch he could hit. Clutch player. The Dallas papers wrote about the failures of the pitcher and the right fielder. Chokers both. Now...did the journalists lie?? Nope. Told from a different point of view. Unless journalists are manipulated, I think most try to tell the truth...as they see it. Same with the Middle East.

I like you and your posts. I did not intend this to become a huge political/religious debate. I do think the professor was wrong and should be suspended or terminated. He ambushed a respected guest and made politically insensitive comments prior to walking off. Me?? I would have assumed he quit because he abandoned his job without notice and force him to fight his way back. Here is a dilemma I have with the current political climate with regards to employment. You can oppose abortion with every fiber in your body but are not allowed to withhold your efforts if you work for a health care facility that may perform an abortion. But you are allowed to withhold your efforts if you oppose something politically...the firemen that refused to get on a truck that a US flag was attached to....this professor who walks out after insulting a respected guest of his employer. Me?? I think if you are n health care you can't pick and chose what you are willing to do (and I am against abortion) and I think you better get your ass on the F-ing fire truck. People can always get a new job if they disagree with the legal views of their employer.

One more thing. When looking at the history of Israel...you need to go back to the very beginning. Prior to air travel, trains, and ships and long range communication...Israel or Palestine was the key spot in the earth. All trade going from east to west or south had to traverse through Israel/Palestine. Why to do think Jews are good at law, banking and trading??? The people sitting on that land have been conducting those professions before the birth of Muhammad or Jesus. The fight over that real estate has be going on since time began. It will not be an easy solution.

In may last job, I had 2 co-workers I considered friends. One was an orthodox Jew who lived 8 years in Israel on a Kibbutz and the other was a Palestinian who emmigrated to the US in his late teens. Both are very bright. It was interesting to listen to each on views of certain events that took place. If you only spoke to one...you would for sure line up behind that viewpoint. And most of the time the viewpoints were 180 degrees from each other. I don't believe either was lying or intentionally manipulating the facts. But personal experiences and culture affect one's point of view. The understanding I gained from that experience was this: The Jew made me aware of how difficult life is when your neighbors #1 goal is to eliminate you and that scud rockets could fall on you or your family at any time. You live in fear. Fear makes you do things a little differently. The Palestinian made me understand how living life with no status or voice made life unbearable. The PLO was corrupt and provided few services and took what little money they had...and the Israelis had no use for you. You were nothing and had even less. This is not an easy problem to solve. Anyone who believes that is not looking at all the facts objectively.

And my final word is...fire the professor at the school in Portage County
Dave in Green
@Yaznasty, you have cited a long list of observations primarily from the Palestinian view. I've read about them before, and believe they have some merit.

As Doug points out, there are honestly different views of everything, and sometimes the views are 180 degrees opposed.

For each and every point you cited, there is a corresponding Israeli viewpoint, and those also have some merit.

Point is that a neutral party trying to objectively listen to both sides and examine all the evidence would likely come to the conclusion that neither side is entirely right or entirely wrong.

That's the conclusion I've come to, and I consider myself to be reasonably fair and open-minded on most issues. I don't automatically come down on one side or another because of religion, ethnicity, or the like. I really do try to look at all aspects of a situation and try to understand how I would feel and how I would react if put into a similar situation.

If I were an Israeli living in a small country surrounded by many larger countries calling for my country's death, I would be reluctant to compromise on anything without everyone first agreeing that my country has a right to exist. It does not encourage compromise when others are calling for the death of my country.

If I were a Palestinian living in limbo surrounded by people who I thought were taking away my ancestral lands, I would be reluctant to compromise on anything without first being assured that I could have a legitimately recognized country on my ancestral lands. It does not encourage compromise when others are building permanent settlements on my ancestral lands.

There are only three options available here:

* Continue on the current path of no compromise and no solution to people on both sides slowly suffering and under constant threat of injury or death from sporadic hostile action.

* Enter all-out war until one side or the other ceases to be a viable force.

* Earnestly seek compromise that allows everyone to live together in dignity and peace.

The third and final option is the one that most reasonable people want. But no one really knows how to get there.

Unfortunately, I believe that there are many forces at work trying for various reasons to scuttle any peace process and keep the area in eternal turmoil and conflict.

Whichever side one may think is most responsible for the problems, I personally don't think it does a lot of good to line up behind one side and loudly and angrily try to pin all the blame on the other side.

There's way too much polarization in all aspects of the world today.

I think it would be more productive for everyone, no matter which side they may have a tendency to support, to try harder to see and understand the situation from the perspective of the other side.
GoZips
QUOTE(Ada Zip @ Nov 3 2011, 11:58 AM) *
QUOTE(GoZips @ Nov 3 2011, 10:54 AM) *
Who is kidding who?

Islam has fomented hate and treachery through out the world for 1,400 years.

Israel is a current popular target of Islam. The blame for terrorism and hatred
rests squarely on Islam.

Political correctness allows this piece of crap to hold on to his job a Cantville.
Had he spoken against blacks or homosexuals they would have fired him in
less than a minute.



No body is kidding no body!

In my book, Ignorance is defined as the situation when some one is so arrogant to think that his opinion is absolutely true and that he knows it all and he can judge others.
Gozips is saying that more than a billion people in this world support a religion that fomented hate and treachery and doing that, the religion survived for 1400 years!
He is also saying that the academic system, and the administration of Can't state and the education system in Ohio are wrong and he is right. Also the Ph D holding gentleman is now a piece of crap because he doesn't share his point of view about the political state of Israel.

A wise man once said: whenever i debate a wise person, I may win or lose the debate. However, every time i debate an ignorant, I lose the battle. So sure gozips, you're not wrong! everyone else is.

I find your response offensive and full of lies.

Frankly, you owe me and everyone on this board an apology.

I did not attack you. I stated facts. Hinduism and a number of other
world wide religions have existed longer than Islam or even Christianity.
Certainly Judaism is the better part of 6,000 years old. Yet, none of these
religions strap bombs on their children to go murder innocent people.
None of them advocate the violent over throw of other religions. Islam does.
That makes Islam hateful. Are there innocent, decent people who practice
Islam? Yes, and sadly they must wear the mantle provided by the teachers and
leaders of Islam.

A man holding a Ph.D does not necessary make him a good man. A man who
disrupts, lacks respect of others and shouts hate filled remarks is for all intents
and purposes EVIL.
Ada Zip
QUOTE
I find your response offensive and full of lies.


Can you please show me where exactly I lied?

QUOTE
Frankly, you owe me and everyone on this board an apology.


1 - Don't drag every one else into this.
2 - I come to this page to enjoy discussing the teams I am passionate about. I login and find you, out of no where and with no reason whatsoever insulting my religion...but i owe you an apology???!!!!

QUOTE
I did not attack you.


You don't think that attacking my belief falls under attacking me?

QUOTE
I stated facts.


Off course! that's your persona! you think that your opinions are all facts.

QUOTE
None of them advocate the violent over throw of other religions. Islam does. That makes Islam hateful.


Again! that's another one of your "facts". Terrorizing others is forbidden in the Quran and spoken against by prophet Muhammad but all that doesn't matter because you said so! who am I to question your facts?


At the end of the day, I am not trying to change your mind, nor am i looking for an apology from you...
I do however apologize to the other readers for filling the space with a topic with little to no interest to them. I shouldn't have allowed you to push my buttons. If you are really interested in having an educated hate-free discussion, PM me and i will be happy to invite you for a cup of coffee.
Yaznasty
Hmm this has gotten interesting. All I will really say is it is very difficult for me to be unbiased because of the experiences I have had as well as the experiences my family members have had. Those of you who are unbiased are probably better off for it, and I really appreciate your willingness to listen to my perspective. I am sorry if I underestimated anyone's knowledge on the subject, I don't really know what everyone's background here is. For those of you providing insightful perspectives, thank you for fostering intelligent discussion. Hope I didn't upset anyone.
Dave in Green
@Yaznasty and @Ada Zip, you both represent your opinions with dignity and class. You do not need to apologize to anyone for speaking out in that manner.

I have thought a lot about the problem faced in America by good and decent Palestinians and other followers of the Islamic faith. America invested the lives of many of its citizens during World War II at least in part to stop Nazi Germany from slaughtering people of the Jewish faith. America supported the formation of the country of Israel at least in part to give people of the Jewish faith a home country where they could live in safety from persecution.

America was founded on the principle of freedom of religion. There is no reason that this should not also extend to Palestinians and other followers of the Islamic faith. But the conflict between Palestinians and other Muslims with the ability of Jewish people to have freedom and security in Israel creates a huge problem for most Americans.

Ideally, most Americans would want followers of both the Jewish and Islamic faith to be able to live together in peace as good neighbors. But we do not know how to make this happen. Each side tells us that the other side is evil and will not allow peace to happen. Who are we to believe?

It's true that those of the Jewish faith are well represented in America, and they have spokespeople who represent their side in an effecitve way. This is not true of those who follow the Islamic faith. Instead of credible spokespeople trying to tell us their side of the story in a calm and reasoned manner, we have college professors standing up and yelling "Death to Israel!"

This will not work in America, period, end of story.

This is not only not productive, it is counter-productive. Yelling "death" to anyone or anything is just plain un-American.

This suggests to Americans that Muslims are nothing but terrorists and killers, even though that is certainly not true.

The truth is that there are terrorists and killers of every faith -- Muslim, Jewish, Christian, whatever. But the vast majority of each faith are decent, peace-loving citizens.

Those of the Muslim faith desperately need a good spokesperson who represents the majority of decent, peace-loving Muslims. Muslims desperately need a peace-loving leader like Mohandas Gandhi, Nelson Mandella or Martin Luther King.

I do not like to think of the consequences to the world if this does not happen.
Ada Zip
Thank you Dave for your nice words.
I totally agree with every word you typed. I understand and respect the public opinion about these issues and I have conversations with friends and colleagues on an almost daily basis without one of us insulting the others.
Let me tell you that if I ever get the chance to meet with Dr. Pino or whatever his name is, and if he asks for my opinion of what he did, i will give him an earful.
However, as an academic person, I will be really disturbed if his job is risked because he expressed his personal opinion about a political topic outside the class room.

And by the way, I do not have any Palestinian roots and have no horses in the middle east conflict. I only have an informed opinion about that subject.
It is when the religion of Islam was insulted that I had to jump in and take it personal.

Thanks again for your nice reply and Go Zips!
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