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Severely Toughening-up the Basketball Schedule


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GP1 has had one of his better weeks of posts, IMO. One of his recent points is a calling out the basketball program to clean up it's cream puffs and play some "body bag" games to bring revenue to the UA athletics department. The football team plays 25% of it's schedule against SEC, Big 10 and Big East teams this fall. Like any MAC program, they will not be favored in any of these contests. But, they will bring some nice cash flow into the JAR offices by playing these games. At the expense of the Head Coach's winning percentage.Two very relevant examples of mid-major hoops programs who schedule very tough include Miami and Cleveland State.Miami played the following teams to begin the 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico, Dayton, Temple, Cincinnati, Xavier, Colorado.They lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, Miami stands at 11-13 overall, but 8-3 in the MAC (tied with the Zips for 2nd place in the MAC).CSU played the following teams to begin their 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Virginia, Wichita State, West Virginia, Ohio State, Kansas State.Like Miami, they lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, CSU stands at 13-12 overall, but 9-4 and sitting in 2nd place in the Horizon (to #22 ranked Butler, whom they play 2...probably 3 times every season)Both programs can sell their recruits that they will play "high level" competition if they attend Miami/CSU. Both programs are bringing in good money to their respective athletic departments. Both programs remain highly competitive in their respective conferences, despite their loss-riddled starts.If, like everyone's mantra seems to be...."The only thing that matters is the MAC Tourney"... then why not play a super-tough start to the season, bring in some revenue, get your highlights on ESPN, give yourself several opportunities at BCS-level upsets that you can sell to recruits...all that stuff.It seems like the only thing you have to lose by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... money?

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If Miami or CSU win their conference tournaments, they'll be 15 or 16 seeds because of their records. That virtually guarantees a one-and-done in the Big Dance.Yes, Akron could play a tougher schedule, but to play one on the level of CSU or Miami hurts if you want to do more than just win your conference.Akron's schedule next year looks ok. Better than this year, but not so difficult to ruin your chance at a decent seed in the NCAA tournament.

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If Miami or CSU win their conference tournaments, they'll be 15 or 16 seeds because of their records. That virtually guarantees a one-and-done in the Big Dance.
No MAC program has ever been a 15 or 16 seed. Only if OU, or one of the MAC West teams stole the MAC tourney, would a 15 or 16 seed happen. If Miami won the MAC tourney, they would be damn close to 20-wins, with a very respectable RPI. A #14 seed is the absolute worst-case.And - CSU, as a 13 seed, won in the 1st round last season. I would hardly count them out in round 1. Waters can coach.
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If Miami or CSU win their conference tournaments, they'll be 15 or 16 seeds because of their records. That virtually guarantees a one-and-done in the Big Dance.Yes, Akron could play a tougher schedule, but to play one on the level of CSU or Miami hurts if you want to do more than just win your conference.Akron's schedule next year looks ok. Better than this year, but not so difficult to ruin your chance at a decent seed in the NCAA tournament.
IMO, there's only two ways a team can ruin their chance at getting a good tourney seed:1. Lose in your conference more than a few times.2. Schedule the Malones, St. Francis, etc. and cause your SOS to go down (down as in bad), which ultimately can ruin your RPI.
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it is true that you lose 100% of the games you don't play. That being said, UA has a 0% chance of being LeMoyne.Last year we played #6 Pitt at Pitt. We played well but came up short. Anyone remember one of the high-profile recruits in attendance that day? I'll give you a hint, he plays for us now. I'm sure that game helped us land him for good(as I'm pretty sure he wasn't 100% set on coming here at the time).I'm all for a tougher schedule. I don't care to see us beat teams by 50 points.

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I agree that the Zips schedule should be strengthened. But it has to be part of a bigger plan, including higher level players and a better facility. It should be done incrementally at about the same rate that better new recruits are brought in. The level of recruiting has been slowly going up under KD, and took a bigger step up with Zeke. I'm also impressed with Dakotah Euton coming to UA next season. Players of this caliber have the potential to play a tougher schedule and be competitive. The Zips are getting stronger as a team, and could handle a tougher OOC schedule.I would like to see the Zips transition from their current level OOC schedule to one closer to what Miami and CSU schedule, but over a period of 2 or 3 years. We need another tough opponent or two added next year to make sure that next year's OOC schedule is at least a little tougher than this year's, and then make the following year a little tougher still.

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As I've said many times before. I don't want a Miami style guantlet of OOC games. I also hate our current method of scheduling a murderers row of cupcakes. Somewhere in the middle is where I'd like to be. Give me 2 or 3 of what GP1 calls "ATM games" and a solid blend of quality mid-majors with a couple of cupcakes for an exhibition game and maybe one game during finals week.

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Miami's schedule is insane, and Akron would be silly to adopt it. However, Akron would be wise to beef up the schedule some. I'm not saying travel to the Dean Dome, but the selection committee wants to see signature wins, and you can't get those if you don't try. Yeah, you're going to lose more often than you win, but that's the world we live in right now.

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If Miami or CSU win their conference tournaments, they'll be 15 or 16 seeds because of their records. That virtually guarantees a one-and-done in the Big Dance.
No MAC program has ever been a 15 or 16 seed. Only if OU, or one of the MAC West teams stole the MAC tourney, would a 15 or 16 seed happen. If Miami won the MAC tourney, they would be damn close to 20-wins, with a very respectable RPI. A #14 seed is the absolute worst-case.And - CSU, as a 13 seed, won in the 1st round last season. I would hardly count them out in round 1. Waters can coach.
You certain of that?
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I agree that the Zips schedule should be strengthened. But it has to be part of a bigger plan, including higher level players and a better facility. It should be done incrementally at about the same rate that better new recruits are brought in.
I respectfully disagree and would submit this is a dodge. I've been reading the "building process" dodge on this board for how many years now and it is sickening. The fact of the matter is there is much better talent on the team now than when KD took over the program. The schedule is the same. One could argue that Malone AND St. Francis makes the schedule worse. As far as waiting to get a new arena before a better schedule, how freaking long will that take and why should they get a new arena?...Only 3.500 people show up and the state of Ohio is broke. They're so boring nobody will pay to watch and the most exciting thing that happened this week was a player getting suspended. The Rubber Bowl was falling down...the JAR is in fine condition.The issue nobody is discussing and CK brought it up in his original post is the BB program, while winning a lot of games, is not contributing as much as they could to the financial well being of the athletic department. This has to stop. The football team plays 75% of their games against BCS teams...that has to stop also and the BB program should not adopt that strategy. If the basketball team loses a few more games a year and the football team adopts a sane schedule and wins a couple more games while playing at home, the athletic department will be better off. The greatest opportunity for revenue generation is through the football program and the 25,000 seat stadium they play in, not the 3,500 per game crowds the basketball team plays in front of. The basketball team has maxed out it's revenue generation. They played an abnormally large number of home ooc games this year and they seem to be maxed out at 3,500 per game the year after a MAC Championship. If they play fewer home ooc games next year and crowds remain the same (if they don't win the MAC, the risk of a smaller average exists), they are actually in a worse financial situation than this season unless they can get a price increase in tickets. Basically, the Zips NEED to play higher level teams if they are going to contribute fully to the athletic department.The basketball team would be in no different position right now if they played UNC in lieu of Malone. They could also dump one other mid major and play a Pitt or some other Big East team. I thought Mack was a good AD, but one criticism of him I will make is he allowed the BB program to get away with not holding up their financial end. We'll see if the TW makes some changes...he needs to for the sake of the entire athletic department.
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The tournament seeding is a minor issue to me. Anywhere 12-15 isn't going to matter much. You can always get the right matchup, and win the game.The bigger issue is, we know that selection committees take teams with a few more losses if they played tougher schedules. We can either go along with the program, or get out of the way and play the cupcakes, and hope for a everything-falls-our-way scenario in Cleveland every year. If we are ever going to elevate ourselves as a program, we must challenge ourselves much more in the OOC part of our schedule, play more games of national significance, generate some revenue, and give our potential fans some games that will excite them. As I say all the time.....the post-season shutout we experienced 3 years ago will happen again, and will keep happening, if we don't change.

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GP1 has had one of his better weeks of posts, IMO. One of his recent points is a calling out the basketball program to clean up it's cream puffs and play some "body bag" games to bring revenue to the UA athletics department. The football team plays 25% of it's schedule against SEC, Big 10 and Big East teams this fall. Like any MAC program, they will not be favored in any of these contests. But, they will bring some nice cash flow into the JAR offices by playing these games. At the expense of the Head Coach's winning percentage.Two very relevant examples of mid-major hoops programs who schedule very tough include Miami and Cleveland State.Miami played the following teams to begin the 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico, Dayton, Temple, Cincinnati, Xavier, Colorado.They lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, Miami stands at 11-13 overall, but 8-3 in the MAC (tied with the Zips for 2nd place in the MAC).CSU played the following teams to begin their 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Virginia, Wichita State, West Virginia, Ohio State, Kansas State.Like Miami, they lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, CSU stands at 13-12 overall, but 9-4 and sitting in 2nd place in the Horizon (to #22 ranked Butler, whom they play 2...probably 3 times every season)Both programs can sell their recruits that they will play "high level" competition if they attend Miami/CSU. Both programs are bringing in good money to their respective athletic departments. Both programs remain highly competitive in their respective conferences, despite their loss-riddled starts.If, like everyone's mantra seems to be...."The only thing that matters is the MAC Tourney"... then why not play a super-tough start to the season, bring in some revenue, get your highlights on ESPN, give yourself several opportunities at BCS-level upsets that you can sell to recruits...all that stuff.It seems like the only thing you have to lose by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... money?
No. One thing to be gained (not lost) by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... money.One thing to be lost by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... W/L %.
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GP1 has had one of his better weeks of posts, IMO. One of his recent points is a calling out the basketball program to clean up it's cream puffs and play some "body bag" games to bring revenue to the UA athletics department. The football team plays 25% of it's schedule against SEC, Big 10 and Big East teams this fall. Like any MAC program, they will not be favored in any of these contests. But, they will bring some nice cash flow into the JAR offices by playing these games. At the expense of the Head Coach's winning percentage.Two very relevant examples of mid-major hoops programs who schedule very tough include Miami and Cleveland State.Miami played the following teams to begin the 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Louisiana Tech, New Mexico, Dayton, Temple, Cincinnati, Xavier, Colorado.They lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, Miami stands at 11-13 overall, but 8-3 in the MAC (tied with the Zips for 2nd place in the MAC).CSU played the following teams to begin their 2009-10 season:Kentucky, Virginia, Wichita State, West Virginia, Ohio State, Kansas State.Like Miami, they lost every game. Some close, some not-so-close. As of today, CSU stands at 13-12 overall, but 9-4 and sitting in 2nd place in the Horizon (to #22 ranked Butler, whom they play 2...probably 3 times every season)Both programs can sell their recruits that they will play "high level" competition if they attend Miami/CSU. Both programs are bringing in good money to their respective athletic departments. Both programs remain highly competitive in their respective conferences, despite their loss-riddled starts.If, like everyone's mantra seems to be...."The only thing that matters is the MAC Tourney"... then why not play a super-tough start to the season, bring in some revenue, get your highlights on ESPN, give yourself several opportunities at BCS-level upsets that you can sell to recruits...all that stuff.It seems like the only thing you have to lose by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... money?
No. One thing to be gained (not lost) by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... money.One thing to be lost by playing a tough OOC schedule is ... W/L %.
When KD signed his last contract, was his bonus structure heavily weighted towards # of wins. I know most contracts have pie in the sky (NCAA Champ, Final 4 ect.) potential bonuses. He might just be after the low hanging fruit or his philosophy might be slow and steady wins the MAC race. Either way he is getting better each year but TW needs to nudge him in the direction of greater revenue generation and marquee opponents.
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I agree that the Zips schedule should be strengthened. But it has to be part of a bigger plan, including higher level players and a better facility. It should be done incrementally at about the same rate that better new recruits are brought in.
I respectfully disagree and would submit this is a dodge. I've been reading the "building process" dodge on this board for how many years now and it is sickening. The fact of the matter is there is much better talent on the team now than when KD took over the program. The schedule is the same. One could argue that Malone AND St. Francis makes the schedule worse. As far as waiting to get a new arena before a better schedule, how freaking long will that take and why should they get a new arena?...Only 3.500 people show up and the state of Ohio is broke. They're so boring nobody will pay to watch and the most exciting thing that happened this week was a player getting suspended. The Rubber Bowl was falling down...the JAR is in fine condition.The issue nobody is discussing and CK brought it up in his original post is the BB program, while winning a lot of games, is not contributing as much as they could to the financial well being of the athletic department. This has to stop. The football team plays 75% of their games against BCS teams...that has to stop also and the BB program should not adopt that strategy. If the basketball team loses a few more games a year and the football team adopts a sane schedule and wins a couple more games while playing at home, the athletic department will be better off. The greatest opportunity for revenue generation is through the football program and the 25,000 seat stadium they play in, not the 3,500 per game crowds the basketball team plays in front of. The basketball team has maxed out it's revenue generation. They played an abnormally large number of home ooc games this year and they seem to be maxed out at 3,500 per game the year after a MAC Championship. If they play fewer home ooc games next year and crowds remain the same (if they don't win the MAC, the risk of a smaller average exists), they are actually in a worse financial situation than this season unless they can get a price increase in tickets. Basically, the Zips NEED to play higher level teams if they are going to contribute fully to the athletic department.The basketball team would be in no different position right now if they played UNC in lieu of Malone. They could also dump one other mid major and play a Pitt or some other Big East team. I thought Mack was a good AD, but one criticism of him I will make is he allowed the BB program to get away with not holding up their financial end. We'll see if the TW makes some changes...he needs to for the sake of the entire athletic department.
Sorry, but with all due respect, Zips basketball isn't going anywhere without a complete plan that is well-conceived, well-executed and addresses all areas of the program. Simply dropping a few weak opponents from the schedule and adding a few strong ones is a bandage.The real dodge is to say you can throw a bandage on one area of the program and magically make it successful. No successful major business -- and UA is certainly a successful major business in the field of higher education -- would ever consider conducting business in such a haphazard manner.What's the complete business plan that goes along with increasing SOS?
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the fans that want us to schedule better teams would be the same one's complaining about kd when we lose those games.plus you would start to see the trolls come out when we lose two ,or three in a row.i remember when we lost to dayton two year ago some zips fans were questioning kd ability to coach.gp was leading the way,and it was alott more than him.you need to look at your post after the dayton game.the same thing would happen if we lost four-five in a row by playing on the road against top 50 teams.the board would fill up with unhappy fans questioning kd coaching ability.

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the fans that want us to schedule better teams would be the same one's complaining about kd when we lose those games.plus you would start to see the trolls come out when we lose two ,or three in a row.i remember when we lost to dayton two year ago some zips fans were questioning kd ability to coach.gp was leading the way,and it was alott more than him.you need to look at your post after the dayton game.the same thing would happen if we lost four-five in a row by playing on the road against top 50 teams.the board would fill up with unhappy fans questioning kd coaching ability.
Please find my post after that game. I doubt you will find anything. I have been extremely complimentary of KD and the progress of the BB program under him.The one thing I do agree with is coachers are always laying in the wings. Coachers logic is a team always has to win more games the next year compared to the previous. If the don't win more, they love to throw out the comment, "Is this team moving in the right direction?" or some other bit of rubbish.
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I agree that the Zips schedule should be strengthened. But it has to be part of a bigger plan, including higher level players and a better facility. It should be done incrementally at about the same rate that better new recruits are brought in.
I respectfully disagree and would submit this is a dodge. I've been reading the "building process" dodge on this board for how many years now and it is sickening. The fact of the matter is there is much better talent on the team now than when KD took over the program. The schedule is the same. One could argue that Malone AND St. Francis makes the schedule worse. As far as waiting to get a new arena before a better schedule, how freaking long will that take and why should they get a new arena?...Only 3.500 people show up and the state of Ohio is broke. They're so boring nobody will pay to watch and the most exciting thing that happened this week was a player getting suspended. The Rubber Bowl was falling down...the JAR is in fine condition.The issue nobody is discussing and CK brought it up in his original post is the BB program, while winning a lot of games, is not contributing as much as they could to the financial well being of the athletic department. This has to stop. The football team plays 75% of their games against BCS teams...that has to stop also and the BB program should not adopt that strategy. If the basketball team loses a few more games a year and the football team adopts a sane schedule and wins a couple more games while playing at home, the athletic department will be better off. The greatest opportunity for revenue generation is through the football program and the 25,000 seat stadium they play in, not the 3,500 per game crowds the basketball team plays in front of. The basketball team has maxed out it's revenue generation. They played an abnormally large number of home ooc games this year and they seem to be maxed out at 3,500 per game the year after a MAC Championship. If they play fewer home ooc games next year and crowds remain the same (if they don't win the MAC, the risk of a smaller average exists), they are actually in a worse financial situation than this season unless they can get a price increase in tickets. Basically, the Zips NEED to play higher level teams if they are going to contribute fully to the athletic department.The basketball team would be in no different position right now if they played UNC in lieu of Malone. They could also dump one other mid major and play a Pitt or some other Big East team. I thought Mack was a good AD, but one criticism of him I will make is he allowed the BB program to get away with not holding up their financial end. We'll see if the TW makes some changes...he needs to for the sake of the entire athletic department.
Sorry, but with all due respect, Zips basketball isn't going anywhere without a complete plan that is well-conceived, well-executed and addresses all areas of the program. Simply dropping a few weak opponents from the schedule and adding a few strong ones is a bandage.The real dodge is to say you can throw a bandage on one area of the program and magically make it successful. No successful major business -- and UA is certainly a successful major business in the field of higher education -- would ever consider conducting business in such a haphazard manner.What's the complete business plan that goes along with increasing SOS?
Good questions.I'm not talking about only the BB program. It is the health of the athletic department that has to be considered as well. If the Zips could bring in an extra $300,000 in ooc ATM games, it may not cover the loss, but it would help. The athletic department functions in the red every year. This has to change. The BB team needs to bring in more money because the three biggest revenue producers for the athletic department have to be football, basketball and soccer. The football team needs to start to win so they bring in more money. The soccer team has maxed out their stadium and only ticket price increases will increase their game revenue. This isn't just about basketball. If anyone can show me where the Zips are pulling as much of the financial weight as the other two big three programs, I would be glad to listen.If the business plan is to make more money and win the MAC the steps are as follows. Keep in mind I think this program has maxed out it's revenue generation in it's current form.Step 1: Dump the Malone AND St. Francis schedule. It should be St. Francis OR Malone. Playing two teams like this a year is a joke and everyone knows it.Step 2: Dump two mid major ooc games.Step 3: Add two high major games on the road.Captain Kangaroo is right. If the Zips cash in 2-3 games a year, it is not going to change their success in the MAC. The Zips have a very good MAC team with a good coach and I don't think a couple of ATM games a year are going to have a crushing impact on the team.I'm very happy with the current state of Zips basketball. Sometimes when I read this board, I think some of you still look at this team like it is a small child that has to be protected from the mean outside world. This is a mature program with a good coach and good players. It's time for them to start scheduling like a mature program. Some think there is a possibility for being a Gonzaga...I don't and I don't want to be...I just want to be UofA and we should let Gonzaga be Gonzaga. I do think we can be a great MAC team though. If anyone thinks they can be a high mid major like Gonzage, please let me know how long that is going to take and what it will look like when we get there. With the exception of winning the MAC, the Zips are in the same state they were 3-4 years ago, which is a good thing. They are a solid team that is still losing games they should not lose and losing badly in games they should not lose badly in.Here is a question. If what we are following is indeed a "building process", how far along is the building? Is the foundation poured? Is the supporting structure set? Is everything finished but the carpeting and painting? Exactly where is this program in the building process? When the building is finished, are we going to allow the place to get dirty (ie: ATM games) or are we going to continue to do what we are doing now so our building doesn't get dirty? My concern is when the building is complete, we will hear another dodge.
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GP1, I'll omit the long quote of the above conversation and just say that I agree with a lot of what you say here. I'm sure that UA does have a multifaceted business plan for all sports, including men's basketball. We just don't have access to it, so we can never really know whether or not they are progressing as planned. We're all just guessing.I think we all agree that the program has been moving up since KD took over as head coach, and that we generally like the direction the program has gone. But a taste of success always makes fans hungrier for more.The schedule is fair game to call out because it does not appear to have changed much in recent years. Here, too, I think we have a lot of agreement that a small increase in SOS would not hurt the team in any way, and may have some positive benefits. You'd think at least some improvement in SOS would have been part of an overall plan to grow the program, and that it would have happened by now. But KD has been on record that he hasn't seen the benefit in playing a stronger schedule given the reality that the MAC is a 1-bid conference. There are other reasons, however, to consider a stronger schedule, and I think from recent statements that KD may be more open to considering an increase in SOS than he has been in the past. If the athletic department needs more money generated by the men's basketball program, part of their overall plan should have consideration of all the available options to accomplish that. ATM games would be one of those options. Investing in more team marketing is another, as is the whole question of facilities to try to draw more fans. Again, there are many factors, and they all interact with each other. The overall plan must arrange the interlocking pieces so that they are in harmony and not at odds with each other.Ultimate responsibility for the direction of the men's BB program is more in Tom Wistrcill's court than KD's. Is TW running with the old BB plan or is he developing a new one? Do any of those responsible for developing the program read forums like this to see what the fans want? Would they be able to interpret what the fans want after reading some of our conflicting viewpoints? ;)I definitely agree that trying to be Gonzaga of the East is totally unrealistic without a huge budget increase. And it's unrealistic to imagine UA increasing its BB budget by several hundred percent unless there's a total commitment at UA that becoming a consistent national BB power is worth such a huge investment.Right now, I'm pretty happy with where men's BB is now from where the Zips were before KD. The Zips are now consistently near the top of the MAC and in contention for the championship. That's something that tens of millions of college basketball fans across the country can only dream of as their teams annually battle to stay out of their conference cellars.For the near future, I'd be satisfied if UA could simply move ahead of Can't as the MAC's perennial power. I want to see the Zips favored to win the MAC championship every year, not just in the years after they won the previous year's championship. I'd support any legal, ethical and morally responsible path to follow to get there. But I doubt there will ever be total agreement on the exact path to take, because there is no single proven formula. If there were, it would be pretty simple to get a copy of that blueprint and follow it step by step.One thing to keep in mind is the old physician's first rule of "do no harm." As much as we fans want the Zips BB program to continue moving up, I don't think we'd be very tolerant of a misstep that set the program back. So whatever changes are made must be well thought out and executed. We can throw out all the brilliant ideas we want here at absolutely no cost. But someone at UA is going to have to buy into a plan and live with its success or failure.

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i think a big problem is the akron administration in the a.d. dept.we can't keep an a.d. long enough to really get a long term plan for each sport.the sad part is akron is just stepping stone for a better job.once the a.d. gets here he is looking for another job already.im not saying they dont do ther job,but they are always looking for the next job.i was surprisedthey did not offer the job to faust.they had to pay him anyways for a few years,and he has not left akron.maybe he does not want the job? even though he had a rough time at n.d. i think he is still well liked even at n.d. they need to hire and a.d. who is going to stay for more than 1-2 yrs.

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EMU in 1987 -- 15 seed.Ball State 15 seed in 1993...
When you start pulling out Reagan-era stats, you are really grasping for straws. :lol: Like I said - If a MAC West program, or OU were to win the MAC Tourney, a 15 or 16 seed is possible. If a good MAC program...Akron, Can't, Buffalo, Miami...wins the tourney, a 15 or 16 seed is not possible.
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