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Coach Dambrot needs to coach


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  • I was disappointed in the apparent lack of development of our 7-foot center whom we had all hoped would get an opportunity in the NBA. I think the Zips program let Zeke down, not working more closely with him to strengthen him for a potential NBA career. Maybe some of you did, but I didn't really see the progression. ...

This is an easy one to answer as Zeke, his mom and his stepdad all publicly stated that Zeke himself was responsible for his slower-than-hoped-for development, not the coaching staff. Zeke publicly stated that he really didn't develop a passion for basketball and a strong desire to play professionally until his senior season. He said he originally played basketball because his family expected it of him, and he started off at UA using his basketball scholarship just to get a degree. There's no way a coaching staff can develop a player to their full potential unless the player wants it for themselves.

All the evidence needed to prove that Zeke developed slowly in his first three seasons and then took a big jump up in his senior season when he finally wanted it is shown in his stats and NBA scouting evaluations. As a senior he not only improved his defense to become the #3 shot blocker in the country, he also dramatically improved his offense to the level of top 10 nationally in shooting percentage and top 25 in player efficiency rating (PER). NBA Draft Express said it appeared that Zeke had turned the corner in his senior season to become a legitimate NBA draft possibility. But they cautioned that big questions remained about his laid-back demeanor and lack of toughness, which come from within.

As I've said before, if you could have transplanted Tree's intensity and toughness into Zeke, Zeke would have been a first round NBA draft choice. Then again, an abundance of intensity and toughness with inadequate self-control can lead to an entirely different set of problems.

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If I read some of you correctly, KD is not responsible for Zips Mens Basketball even though he's the Head Coach. It's the MAC. It's the players he's stuck with. It's the JAR. (I'll give you that.) It's "Joe Akron". It's the students. It's our location. It's x. It's y. It's z. But, it's not KD. Seriously?

I am not saying in any way the KD is not responsible. My only point when I said "KD is not the problem" was that, nothing is ever said about him (or any coach for that matter) when things are going well. But as soon as there are a couple of losses in a row, the "KD sucks" thread lights up.

Nobody can argue the success that the program has had in the MAC under KD. There are lots of other things that can be discussed but they have been a top MAC program under KD.

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40 MAC players in the NBA since 1969.

That's why I said many more than 2.

Is 40 enough to convince you that if you are really good, you have a shot at playing in the NBA? I think everyone here would agree on that. I'm no statistician, but it tells me that ON AVERAGE, at least one of the first-teamers on the All-MAC team every year will be on an NBA roster.

How did I do, Dave?

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you can't lose your best rebounder,and, scorer. kd shoud have tried everything he could to let tree back on the team. we would have one loss right now.no one woud complain then.why not keep Harney

on the team also.does not matter what they did.just win at all cost.i say get rid of kd and bring in

a guy named coleman Crawford,or dan hipsher.

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you can't lose your best rebounder,and, scorer. kd shoud have tried everything he could to let tree back on the team. we would have one loss right now.no one woud complain then.why not keep Harney

on the team also.does not matter what they did.just win at all cost.i say get rid of kd and bring in

a guy named coleman Crawford,or dan hipsher.

Wow, quite a lot to answer there. First, he should not have done anything to keep Tree as Tree assaulted a woman. Secondly, to UA's good fortune, Nick Harney transferred and is now another team's cancer/head case.

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That's why I said many more than 2.

Is 40 enough to convince you that if you are really good, you have a shot at playing in the NBA? I think everyone here would agree on that. I'm no statistician, but it tells me that ON AVERAGE, at least one of the first-teamers on the All-MAC team every year will be on an NBA roster.

How did I do, Dave?

Lol, ok.

Yes, if you are really good you have a shot at the NBA....those players simply aren't coming from the MAC. That's all I am saying.

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you can't lose your best rebounder,and, scorer. kd shoud have tried everything he could to let tree back on the team. we would have one loss right now.no one woud complain then.why not keep Harney

on the team also.does not matter what they did.just win at all cost.i say get rid of kd and bring in

a guy named coleman Crawford,or dan hipsher.

Obviously someone's account was hacked.

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Posting a criticism on a forum is an open invitation for others to chime in with different points of view. Ideally everyone will listen to everyone else, give fair consideration to all the points brought up, accept points that can be verified and reject points that can't. In some cases discussion results in many facts being brought out and consensus opinions developing. In other cases points are so speculative that they can neither be proven or disproven, and they either die out or just lay around and fester.

To the best of my knowledge the theory that Coach Dambrot and his staff don't do a good job of developing players was first postulated here many years ago by a forum member who primarily followed football and had only a passing interest in basketball. It was purely speculative and no hard evidence was ever presented to compare how players actually develop at UA compared with other programs at a similar level. It kept getting brought up again season after season and some seem to have accepted it as having some basis in fact just because it keeps getting repeated.

Zeke became the poster boy for this theory because he seemed to have so much promise when he arrived yet didn't develop to the point of being drafted by the NBA. But the theory of Zeke's development being impeded by Coach Dambrot and his staff doesn't stand up to close examination. Zeke and his parents have publicly stated that Zeke's slow development was due to Zeke's attitude, not coaching. I've personally spoken with Zeke and his parents and they confirm that. At least when a single player like Zeke is held up as an example we can dig into the situation and get some facts.

Exactly where Coach Dambrot and his staff stand in terms of developing players compared with similar programs is a much more complex question. There's really no reliable system that accurately measures the player development rankings of different coaches, so it becomes mostly speculative. There are so many variables involved that I'm not sure it could be reliably done. Certainly within the coaching community some coaches have better reputations for developing players than others. As far as I know Coach Dambrot has a generally good overall reputation among his fellow coaches. But who really knows if he's in the upper third, middle third or lower third of all coaches when it comes to the single issue of player development when there's no way to measure it?

I'm open to any points anyone wants to bring up on this issue. I enjoy intelligent conversation and I'm always interested in learning things I didn't know. But of course I'm going to question points that are purely speculative with nothing to back them up just as I would expect everyone to question me if I did the same. I think it's in everyone's best interests if we all try to do our best to separate fact from speculation.

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Reading this forum, I don't expect the Zips to ever be better than top of the MAC. A glorious place to be, I guess. Sorry that I believe that Akron could rise above that with the right attitude and drive. I was in no way attacking KD. I pointed out some shortcomings and suggested some "soul searching" is needed. OMG, I guess that means I think Zips Mens Basketball absolutely sucks. It's a shame that so many are so comfortable being near the top of a less than mediocre conference. Next time you complain about the quality of the teams that we play at the JAR and that the MAC only gets the 1 bid to the NCAA Tourney, take a look at your comfortable selves in the mirror.

Edit:

Sorry, I forgot to prove that the MAC is a less than mediocre conference. I guess I inferred it from the number of bids the MAC gets to the NCAA Tourney. Probably more my opinion rather than fact.

Seeing other midmajors get to the Final Four and having experienced a truly driven coach who led us to a Nat'l Championship and who totally believed Akron could be so much more than it is, makes me want more. Not even an alumnus, and he wanted so much more for all of us. He left for bigger things because he didn't like "being comfortable". Oh well...so much for that kind of thinking. Let's all wallow around in pitying ourselves and comforting each other.

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By the way, kudos to the person who stood up at the EOY banquet and asked about the poor performances at the end of last season. That guy was the only person with guts enough to ask a good, thoughtful question rather than stroking egos. Too bad no one took the opportunity to really address the man's question; just take offense to it and move on.

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Reading this forum, I don't expect the Zips to ever be better than top of the MAC. A glorious place to be, I guess. Sorry that I believe that Akron could rise above that with the right attitude and drive. I was in no way attacking KD. I pointed out some shortcomings and suggested some "soul searching" is needed. OMG, I guess that means I think Zips Mens Basketball absolutely sucks. It's a shame that so many are so comfortable being near the top of a less than mediocre conference. Next time you complain about the quality of the teams that we play at the JAR and that the MAC only gets the 1 bid to the NCAA Tourney, take a look at your comfortable selves in the mirror.

Edit:

Sorry, I forgot to prove that the MAC is a less than mediocre conference. I guess I inferred it from the number of bids the MAC gets to the NCAA Tourney. Probably more my opinion rather than fact.

Seeing other midmajors get to the Final Four and having experienced a truly driven coach who led us to a Nat'l Championship and who totally believed Akron could be so much more than it is, makes me want more. Not even an alumnus, and he wanted so much more for all of us. He left for bigger things because he didn't like "being comfortable". Oh well...so much for that kind of thinking. Let's all wallow around in pitying ourselves and comforting each other.

I love the Zips. I keep hoping Dambrot will take us to the next level. Maybe there is more to it than just the coach. But after 8-10 years, I think it is quite clear that we are, and will only ever be, a good MAC team.

I guess that's okay!

Is it the lack of talent? Is it the lack of fan support? Is It the coaching staff? I just don't see us moving beyond a Mid-Major mediocre/good team.

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I'm all in for intelligent discussion. Can we start by picking a single point and discussing it in a calm, measured manner? I thought we were focused on the single point of player development, but that seems to have been lost in a stream of generalities. If we take one point at a time and stick with it, we may be able to come to some kind of understanding. If we keep throwing out multiple issues at random this thread will accomplish no more than other threads that have gone in that direction. Are we done discussing player development or does someone still have a point to make on that issue?

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I'm all in for intelligent discussion. Can we start by picking a single point and discussing it in a calm, measured manner? I thought we were focused on the single point of player development, but that seems to have been lost in a stream of generalities. If we take one point at a time and stick with it, we may be able to come to some kind of understanding. If we keep throwing out multiple issues at random this thread will accomplish no more than other threads that have gone in that direction. Are we done discussing player development or does someone still have a point to make on that issue?

I was not planning to contribute to this chronic discussion because my experience here has been that most of the fans act as if Dambrot can do no wrong and no one should ever question any thing he does. But now that you are asking for a single point of discussion, I am going to accept your offer Dave, let's talk about player development.

Dambrot came to the program 10 years ago selling the idea of no JC and only HS kids because you invest in them in their underclassmen years and then they return big on the investment when they are seniors. So I would assume that when coaches invest resources to scout a player and invest more resources to offer him a scholarship, that player should at least return on the investment by being a player for multiple year and that their performance should steadily improve from year 1 to year 4. Let's see the record...look at the following names:

Alex Sullivan, Michael Green, Humpty Hitchens, Dakotah Euton, Josh Egner, Steve Swich, Nick Harney, Alex Abreu, Ronnie Stewart, Andrew Parrish, Bubba Walter, John Rybak, Blake Justice, Carmelo Betancourt, and finally Tree.

That's a list of 15 student athletes (I may be forgetting some more) that did not play their senior year of eligibility at Akron and (in business terms) did not reach the potential return on investment. Now off course you will say that players every where transfer out of programs but that is a list of 15 players. If Dambrot is in his 10th? year at Akron and the average coach brings in 3 HS kids per year, this list would be 50% of KD's recruits.

So when KD talks year after year after year about his team being young and that they're not winning because of this youth, you have to ask: who's fault is that? and how can we ever have a seasoned team when players don't get to their senior year in the program?

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That's a list of 15 student athletes (I may be forgetting some more) that did not play their senior year of eligibility at Akron and (in business terms) did not reach the potential return on investment. Now off course you will say that players every where transfer out of programs but that is a list of 15 players. If Dambrot is in his 10th? year at Akron and the average coach brings in 3 HS kids per year, this list would be 50% of KD's recruits.

So when KD talks year after year after year about his team being young and that they're not winning because of this youth, you have to ask: who's fault is that? and how can we ever have a seasoned team when players don't get to their senior year in the program?

Very good points.

I wonder what the ratio is at all of the other programs in the MAC? (Not trying to make an excuse, for/against KD, I am just wondering if it is on par with everyone else.)

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Fair enough, Ada Zip. How could I possibly object to a post that contains stats? :D But you really bring up two separate points that I'd like to address separately. The first is this:

I was not planning to contribute to this chronic discussion because my experience here has been that most of the fans act as if Dambrot can do no wrong and no one should ever question any thing he does ...

Of course the other extreme from wanting to give Coach Dambrot a free pass is wanting to criticize him every time something we don't like happens by venting in general and never producing factual data to support the criticisms. Honestly I think both extremes are in the minority here and that most fans are open to critiquing coaching performance in a positive and productive way. To accomplish that it's important to stay focused on discussing specific issues and not get sidetracked on portraying everyone who questions our comments as an extremist trying to stifle our free speech.

I've said this many times before and I'll say it again here because it really applies to this subject: I never post on any forum without expecting to be questioned, and I'm always surprised at the reaction I see from those who get indignant when they are questioned. Discussion forums are all about everyone feeling free to state their opinions and everyone else feeling free to question the rationale behind those opinions. In the course of a good discussion, different people contribute different thoughts, ideas and verifiable facts that help educate everyone reading the discussion.

I've already stated that I know of no accurate, reliable measuring system of a coach's ability to develop players. It's a very broad and complex subject for which there may be no definitive answer. But that doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't discuss it. I want to know what others are thinking to help broaden my own understanding and I hope others feel the same. Every point brought up by me or anyone else is open for challenge in the course of intelligent discussion. Anyone who can't tolerate being challenged probably shouldn't be participating in a discussion forum. With all of the above in mind, let's go back to discussing player development.

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Wow. Tell us how you really feel, Ada.

:gun:

I really don't understand you're comment. Ada brought up some good points, and you make it sound like he wants KD fired. I didn't read that into it at all.

I wonder what the ratio is at all of the other programs in the MAC? (Not trying to make an excuse, for/against KD, I am just wondering if it is on par with everyone else.)

Why make the comparison to the MAC? How about other successful mid-major programs who have advanced in the NCAA Tourney? Can someone please help me with the fascination of being the best or near the top of the MAC? That seems like a low goal to set.

To DiG's point about wanting to discuss specifics. I'm only a casual basketball fan. I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to pick out specific basketball coaching issues, nor am I interested in studying the recruiting/retainment of Zips Mens Basketball players. My main point is that KD makes a lot of excuses of why we shouldn't expect more. We're in the MAC. We're young. Other teams in the MAC aren't improving to bring up the calibre of the league. yada yada yada. He continually sets the bar low, trying to keep the heat from the fans down. I absolutely agree with AdaZip "... my experience here has been that most of the fans act as if Dambrot can do no wrong and no one should ever question any thing he does." I don't want KD fired, but I would like him to feel some "heat" from the fans, especially those dedicated fans who have attended many more Zips Mens Basketball games than I have. I love the Zips above all other teams, pro or college, and would like to see more from the program. However, those who have hung in there the longest deserve to see more. It can be done but not by doing the same things over and again and just expecting it to happen.

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I disagree with the idea that you can motivate professional adults with 'turning up the heat'. I have no doubt in my mind that Dambrot feels plenty of pressure already. To say that he needs outside pressure to make him more successful is to imply that he is coasting or doesn't care.

If he doesn't care enough, then he needs to go.

If he does care, then it's completely disrespectful to him as a professional to apply 'heat'. Rediculous.

Sorry, I completely disagree. This isn't a recruit in boot camp. He is an experienced coach who has turned down other offers to stay here and seek success. Get off your high horse. thanks.

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I really don't understand you're comment. Ada brought up some good points, and you make it sound like he wants KD fired. I didn't read that into it at all.

I was just commenting on his frank and candid opinion. These days, posts like Ada's are too few and far between and I certainly meant no disrespect by my remarks.

Well thought out critiques are refreshing and provide food for thought, IMO. Sorry for the confusion.

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Why make the comparison to the MAC? How about other successful mid-major programs who have advanced in the NCAA Tourney? Can someone please help me with the fascination of being the best or near the top of the MAC? That seems like a low goal to set.

Because the reality is, the MAC is a low level conference in the grand scheme of things. I almost said "compare it to all other D1 Schools" but then the response probably would have been, "the top programs aren't like MAC schools. Players leave early for the NBA."

The fascination of being the best in the MAC is what it is. The MAC is not the same conference that it was in the 90's...it's not. This is no longer a 2 bid NCAA tournament and 2 bid NIT league. It's an automatic bid to both tourneys and everyone else goes to the CBI.

I personally enjoy MAC basketball. Would it be great to have a program that contends for the national title and routinely makes runs in the NCAA tournament? Hell yes it would. But I am also a realist and look at the fact that Akron has never won an NCAA game and understand that the MAC as a conference has had a total of 30 wins in the history of the tournament. (With half of those wins going to 2 schools).

To "think bigger" is not reality in my opinion.

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