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If you're right, and it takes 18 game winning streaks and 27 win seasons to get a decent amount of our own students legitimately interested in attending a FREE basketball game, then we're in trouble.

Again, I'm in agreement with you that it takes significant things to pull Joe Akron off of the couch, but our own students on our own campus is another issue.

It doesn't take long winning streaks, it takes beating big name teams. Many students here still feel like Akron is in the minor leagues of college sports. Until the Zips start making runs in the tournament, or routinely beating top 50ish teams most students will continue to not care.

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Balsy, we've used that for years to explain the lack of student participation at Football games. But, how can we possibly apply that to Basketball? We do win, and win a lot.

What, exactly have we won? Yes, we beat the occasional power conference team, but those are always away from the JAR. We beat up on cupcakes at home, and then we beat MAC teams which doesn't mean much because most MAC teams have been awful for decades. We beat more MAC teams in the conference tournament, and then we lose in the post-season.

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What, exactly have we won? Yes, we beat the occasional power conference team, but those are always away from the JAR. We beat up on cupcakes at home, and then we beat MAC teams which doesn't mean much because most MAC teams have been awful for decades. We beat more MAC teams in the conference tournament, and then we lose in the post-season.

I'm just curious. If the football team was winning most of their games, and was in the MAC Championship game nearly every year, would anyone be trying to say, "Students will start going to the football games once we start winning"?

Again, I am just trying to point out that the excuse people use for lack of student football attendance (we don't win) cannot be applied to basketball.

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I'm just curious. If the football team was winning most of their games, and was in the MAC Championship game nearly every year, would anyone be trying to say, "Students will start going to the football games once we start winning"?

Again, I am just trying to point out that the excuse people use for lack of student football attendance (we don't win) cannot be applied to basketball.

That's because they're different sports with different circumstances. A 20-win basketball season is equivalent to an 8-win football season. The difference is that in football, people recognize that most MAC teams have had some amount of success in recent memory (going to a bowl). Success is measured differently.

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That's because they're different sports with different circumstances. A 20-win basketball season is equivalent to an 8-win football season. The difference is that in football, people recognize that most MAC teams have had some amount of success in recent memory (going to a bowl). Success is measured differently.

I think after awhile, people just start to spend more time attempting to justify the excuses.

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I think after awhile, people just start to spend more time attempting to justify the excuses.

Personally, I think that losing in the first round of the NCAA tournament is a real let down for many potential Zips bb fans but losing in the first round in a lesser post-season tournament to a school like IPFW is extremely damaging. The Zips need to make a run in the NIT or CBI or XYZ if they are ever going to be taken seriously by either the students/alumni or the fabled Joe Akron.

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I think making

Personally, I think that losing in the first round of the NCAA tournament is a real let down for many potential Zips bb fans but losing in the first round in a lesser post-season tournament to a school like IPFW is extremely damaging. The Zips need to make a run in the NIT or CBI or XYZ if they are ever going to be taken seriously by either the students/alumni or the fabled Joe Akron.

Yeah. win 18 in a row - then lose by 50 to VCU.. Probably makes a lot of casual fans think the MAC wins are a mirage. And can we blame them? Then losses like IPFW and Green Bay the other year.. Doesn't help.

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Some are going to look at my comments and agree with some of it. Majority will probably call me an idiot for saying them. I understand whichever way you feel about this post. None of it is clear cut, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having experience of being an AK-Rowdie, I wanted to share what I felt the problem has become. Majority of it is the leadership(or lack of) of the organization. But that's not the only reason for it:

I was a member from Fall 2009-Spring 2012. Earlier on it was what I was hoping for. I was at a high school that had good to great athletics(depending on the sport), and our student section lacked enthusiasm and creativity. That was there my first couple years at UA. Before the athletic department stepped in, and wouldn't allow certain things to be done anymore that made it to an extent, " really fun". Now it's almost coming across as a job or a chore to be part of it because there's so many things you cannot do that could get the organization in trouble with the athletic department. I may be wrong, but I believe that trips taken by organization have to be approved by higher authority than just the organization. So when the athletic department has a beef with the organization already(College Cup in 2009), they'll make it almost impossible for anyone to have any fun with it. Which is why it's terrible now. No one wants to lead it with the burden of the athletic department always breathing down your neck on every little detail.

Plus, the Roo Wards was a thing that the AK-Rowdies started, and was presented to the athletic department as how to get more students in attendance at games for the organization. Department stole the idea and put it out there for the entire student body. Which I didn't think was a bad idea, I just see that AK-Rowdies funds from membership fees(which includes the cost of the t-shirt by the way), gives you perks that go beyond the price you pay for it. But with the athletic department under the necks of it, that value of those perks have started to vanish and make the group that much more sad.

My last point: Porter always stood up for the Rowdies, and the department couldn't do much about it because that was the top college coach in the sport(multiple college and MLS offers every offseason). Then he took the Portland job, and the Rowdies are no longer "protected". Nothing against Embick, but Porter just had the star power that Embick doesn't have right now.

That is why I think you're seeing this dramatic fall of the AK-Rowdies.

Really good post. For me, I have wondered what happened to the Rowdies... I always thought that it was more than just kids graduating and moving on. This post tells me the answer isn't as easy as just blaming the students for lack of enthusiasm.

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Some are going to look at my comments and agree with some of it. Majority will probably call me an idiot for saying them. I understand whichever way you feel about this post. None of it is clear cut, or we wouldn't be having this discussion. Having experience of being an AK-Rowdie, I wanted to share what I felt the problem has become. Majority of it is the leadership(or lack of) of the organization. But that's not the only reason for it:

I was a member from Fall 2009-Spring 2012. Earlier on it was what I was hoping for. I was at a high school that had good to great athletics(depending on the sport), and our student section lacked enthusiasm and creativity. That was there my first couple years at UA. Before the athletic department stepped in, and wouldn't allow certain things to be done anymore that made it to an extent, " really fun". Now it's almost coming across as a job or a chore to be part of it because there's so many things you cannot do that could get the organization in trouble with the athletic department. I may be wrong, but I believe that trips taken by organization have to be approved by higher authority than just the organization. So when the athletic department has a beef with the organization already(College Cup in 2009), they'll make it almost impossible for anyone to have any fun with it. Which is why it's terrible now. No one wants to lead it with the burden of the athletic department always breathing down your neck on every little detail.

Plus, the Roo Wards was a thing that the AK-Rowdies started, and was presented to the athletic department as how to get more students in attendance at games for the organization. Department stole the idea and put it out there for the entire student body. Which I didn't think was a bad idea, I just see that AK-Rowdies funds from membership fees(which includes the cost of the t-shirt by the way), gives you perks that go beyond the price you pay for it. But with the athletic department under the necks of it, that value of those perks have started to vanish and make the group that much more sad.

My last point: Porter always stood up for the Rowdies, and the department couldn't do much about it because that was the top college coach in the sport(multiple college and MLS offers every offseason). Then he took the Portland job, and the Rowdies are no longer "protected". Nothing against Embick, but Porter just had the star power that Embick doesn't have right now.

That is why I think you're seeing this dramatic fall of the AK-Rowdies.

This is my major problem with the Rowdies as a whole. Why is there or was there ever a membership fee? We struggle to draw students in the first place and then we charge to be a part of the student section? That's just silly. The athletic department needs to buy t-shirts to give to students sitting down low, we need to stop making it an exclusive group, and start opening the doors for any and all students to be a part of it all.

With all due respect, I believe that is why there has been a dramatic fall in the Rowdies, not Caleb Porter or Athletics putting the clamps on.

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Why is there or was there ever a membership fee? We struggle to draw students in the first place and then we charge to be a part of the student section?

What are you talking about? The fee is to pay for the t-shirts. The leftover funds used to go towards organizing bus trips, but there are certain people at the university who have put the clamp on that because they're worse than nuns at a Catholic grade school.

Nobody is charged to sit in a student section. The student section is the upper section of the JAR on the south side. No students sit there because it's easier to spread out in the GA sections where the parents of whatever toddler pageant they're doing for halftime shush them and tell them not to stand. The reason the Rowdies leadership being allowed to sit in the lower section isn't as a privilege or exclusivity, it's for control. They have taken the most enthusiastic students, set them apart from the rest so the others can't get incited, and given them something that they can threaten to take away if anybody misbehaves: a threat that happens multiple times every season.

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... The student section is the upper section of the JAR on the south side. No students sit there because it's easier to spread out in the GA sections where the parents of whatever toddler pageant they're doing for halftime shush them and tell them not to stand. ...

I don't get this part. I don't get how it's "easier" to spread out when spreading out results in being shushed and told not to stand. If students don't want to get shushed and told not to stand up and make noise, then common sense tells us it's easier to sit in the upper section of the JAR on the south side with other students who want to stand up and make noise. We need more noise in the JAR and students should be leading this.

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What are you talking about? The fee is to pay for the t-shirts. The leftover funds used to go towards organizing bus trips, but there are certain people at the university who have put the clamp on that because they're worse than nuns at a Catholic grade school.

Nobody is charged to sit in a student section. The student section is the upper section of the JAR on the south side. No students sit there because it's easier to spread out in the GA sections where the parents of whatever toddler pageant they're doing for halftime shush them and tell them not to stand. The reason the Rowdies leadership being allowed to sit in the lower section isn't as a privilege or exclusivity, it's for control. They have taken the most enthusiastic students, set them apart from the rest so the others can't get incited, and given them something that they can threaten to take away if anybody misbehaves: a threat that happens multiple times every season.

I'm saying there shouldn't be a fee. Shirts should be provided by the athletic department. Bus trips should be paid for by individuals interested in each trip.

Listen, here's the ugly truth - we have difficulty drawing current students to our student sections at games FOR FREE. Adding in any type of fee, even a small one, is downright silly.

It's interesting that the word control is being talked about with UA in regard to the Rowdies because it seems the same problem exists with the Rowdies leadership in regard to the general student population. Kind of ironic.

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I'm saying there shouldn't be a fee. Shirts should be provided by the athletic department. Bus trips should be paid for by individuals interested in each trip.

But that's the problem with your comment. It's CHEAPER for students to take the membership fee and go on bus trips, than to not pay a membership fee(t-shirt fee will probably be added to their tuition, so don't be naive that it'll be free) and have to pay their own way for a bus trip. Plus, the trip usually includes a meal and admission ticket to the sporting event. It's not as simple as you're making it to be.

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But that's the problem with your comment. It's CHEAPER for students to take the membership fee and go on bus trips, than to not pay a membership fee(t-shirt fee will probably be added to their tuition, so don't be naive that it'll be free) and have to pay your own way for a bus trip. Plus, the trip usually includes a meal and admission ticket to the sporting event. It's not as simple as you're making it to be.

You're assuming all of these students want to take these bus trips. Given the student attendance at football and basketball home games, I think we need more focus on filling our own seats first.

It is pretty simple - current student support is mediocre (at best). When it's clear the current situation isn't working, it's imperative to look at possible changes. While marketing is the primary issue, I do feel rebranding the student section is another step needed. Give it a catchy name, get a sponsor to print some shirts, and invite ALL students to sit down low. The average Akron student just doesn't seem to want to be an AK-Rowdy.

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You're assuming all of these students want to take these bus trips. Given the student attendance at football and basketball home games, I think we need more focus on filling our own seats first.

It is pretty simple - current student support is mediocre (at best). When it's clear the current situation isn't working, it's imperative to look at possible changes. While marketing is the primary issue, I do feel rebranding the student section is another step needed. Give it a catchy name, get a sponsor to print some shirts, and invite ALL students to sit down low. The average Akron student just doesn't seem to want to be an AK-Rowdy.

You seem to have the wrong idea of what the Ak-Rowdies are. They are not the official student section that is supported by athletics. All they are is a registered student organization that has to pay for everything by themselves. The fee allows them to pay for the t-shirts, bus trips, tickets to tournaments, pizza for many games, tailgate food/drinks, and anything else that is needed throughout the year.

The Rowdies have also not stopped any students from sitting down low this year. They encourage students to wear their Rowdies shirt, but if a student doesn't have one, they have been giving out old shirts before the game. It is not about wanting everyone down low to be a Rowdy, it is about promoting some uniformity in the looks of our student section.

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ZTZ Said: What exactly have we won? Yes, we beat the occasional power conference team, but those are always away from the JAR. We beat up on cupcakes at home, and then we beat MAC teams which doesn't mean much because most MAC teams have been awful for decades. We beat more MAC teams in the conference tournament, and then we lose in the post-season. (Sorry, Quote function doesn't work on my work computer.)

I've been thinking about this a lot. I've been a season ticket holder for a while now, driving an hour each way to any home game I come to. A few years ago, I wouldn't miss a game. This year, I find myself less than enamored with the drive and find myself staying at home, trying to watch a poor internet feed instead. Why am I less excited this year?

I think it comes down to complacency. Once you've seen something several times, it's not as attractive any more. Even if it's really good stuff, it's natural to view it as "been there, done that". Seeing Mount Rushmore the first time is amazing. Seeing it a second time, still cool. But do you want to see it a third time? There are some things, like the Grand Canyon, that awe you regardless of how many times you see it. Duke, Kentucky, Kansas: They're the Grand Canyon. Gonzaga has become Niagara Falls. The Zips in their current form--they're Mount Rushmore, if they're lucky.

Is going to the Big Dance three times in the past 6 years a great accomplishment? Compared to what Akron did before that, of course. But we're kind of in an eternal DO-loop here. Not only with losing in the first round of the Tournament, but in everything else as well. The opponents are still the same as they were 5 years ago--literally. The game day experience is actually worse. KD still talks about the MACC being the only thing that matters. It's all well and good to say "yes, but look at the recruits we're getting now". The problem is, we said the same thing 5 years ago.

At some point, even if something is really good, it goes stale and loses its luster if it stays the same too long. if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind.

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At some point, even if something is really good, it goes stale and loses its luster if it stays the same too long. if you're not moving forward, you're being left behind.

There's a lot of truth to that.

VCU was a mid-major like us when we began playing them. Now they've ascended to being a Top 25 team.

We aspired to be "The Gonzaga of the East." Gonzaga is no longer a mid-major...they are a Top 10 team.

Northern Iowa isTop 25, and stomping their in-state P5 competition (Iowa and Iowa State). Butler is Top 25 even after losing Brad Stevens.

Wichita State is Top 25.

Creighton used to be like the Zips...now they're in the Big East (which is still a really good basketball conference).

When we play OOC, against someone you'd think we should wax, like Valparaiso, Oral Roberts, North Dakota State, IUPFW, etc...if we're lucky, we split. We've shown no ability to separate from the mid-major pack.

Some would say we're spoiled. But that's untrue. We're in a rut.

Our schedule and recruiting will allow us to maintain the 20-win streak for the next decade. That's great. But it equates to 3,800 fans watching MAC opponents, Arkansas Cream-Puff and Coppin State. We're not doing much to catch the casual fan's imagination.

I enjoy the Zips bb games, and love this year's team. Unlike the last couple seasons, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

But if they play in Round #1 in Oregon this year, I'll save the $2,000 and watch it on TV. Been there, done that.

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You seem to have the wrong idea of what the Ak-Rowdies are. They are not the official student section that is supported by athletics. All they are is a registered student organization that has to pay for everything by themselves. The fee allows them to pay for the t-shirts, bus trips, tickets to tournaments, pizza for many games, tailgate food/drinks, and anything else that is needed throughout the year.

The Rowdies have also not stopped any students from sitting down low this year. They encourage students to wear their Rowdies shirt, but if a student doesn't have one, they have been giving out old shirts before the game. It is not about wanting everyone down low to be a Rowdy, it is about promoting some uniformity in the looks of our student section.

I think what most people are getting at is that students think they can't sit on the floor so they don't even bother asking, because they assume it's for AK-Rowdies only. I know that, because that's what I thought when I was a student (before joining the Ak-Rowdies) as well as many of my friends.

I always thought the Rowdies should disperse their leaders throughout the student section to encourage the other students to cheer. There's MANY times I've heard students try to chime in with whatever chant is going on, but they can't hear it, do the wrong one, get out of sync and give-up all together. There's a lot the AK-Rowdies could be, but aren't...simply because it treats itself as a "regular old club". $20 is ridiculous for an entry fee, because most of the members wont end up being a part of any of the events. A lot of freshman join, give $20, find out it sucks (because lets be honest here, it does) and don't attend "AK-Rowdies" hosted events. So you have a few people getting the benefits of the "club" not funded by themselves.

Just an observation, as a former student who was also an Ak-Rowdie. And for being a club, there was a grand total of 1 meetings ever. I'm sure there were other meetings, but as an Ak-Rowdie I never knew of them...because I would have been there making suggestions on how to improve.

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I think what most people are getting at is that students think they can't sit on the floor so they don't even bother asking, because they assume it's for AK-Rowdies only. I know that, because that's what I thought when I was a student (before joining the Ak-Rowdies) as well as many of my friends.

I always thought the Rowdies should disperse their leaders throughout the student section to encourage the other students to cheer. There's MANY times I've heard students try to chime in with whatever chant is going on, but they can't hear it, do the wrong one, get out of sync and give-up all together. There's a lot the AK-Rowdies could be, but aren't...simply because it treats itself as a "regular old club". $20 is ridiculous for an entry fee, because most of the members wont end up being a part of any of the events. A lot of freshman join, give $20, find out it sucks (because lets be honest here, it does) and don't attend "AK-Rowdies" hosted events. So you have a few people getting the benefits of the "club" not funded by themselves.

Just an observation, as a former student who was also an Ak-Rowdie. And for being a club, there was a grand total of 1 meetings ever. I'm sure there were other meetings, but as an Ak-Rowdie I never knew of them...because I would have been there making suggestions on how to improve.

I agree that there are some major problems with the way that the Rowdies are run, but I don't believe that the student section is their fault. I believe that the issue is that most students have no clue how to obtain the wristband to sit on the floor. The Rowdies are only able to advertise to the members of the organization. This is why the floor seats are normally dominated by Rowdies. If the marketing team in athletics would let the other students know how to get the wristbands, I'm sure that there would be a much larger ratio of Rowdies/Non-Rowdies.

As for the entry fee, it does seem steep, but it is pretty much in line with other student fan groups. The Can't State Krew charges $15 every year, which ends up costing their members more than the Rowdies $20/$10 set up if they stay a member for multiple years. I also know many people that sign up for the Rowdies, fully knowing that they are not going to go to any events, because they like the t-shirt and $20 is less than buying a shirt on campus.

As for only having 1 (or no) meetings a year, I agree and I really wish that would change.

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KD could step up and fund the Rowdies. CP spent his money-- as do many other college coaches

Hell, we Alumni could step up and fund the Rowdies.

Despite who might be funding the Rowdies, it'll boil down to if the students in the "Club" want it to change or not. Because if the organization is getting funding from somewhere else, that funder will need a seat (and should have a interest) in what the "Club" does. Do the students in the Club want to give up what they already have? Do they even view themselves as needing to improve.

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There's a lot of truth to that.

VCU was a mid-major like us when we began playing them. Now they've ascended to being a Top 25 team.

We aspired to be "The Gonzaga of the East." Gonzaga is no longer a mid-major...they are a Top 10 team.

Northern Iowa isTop 25, and stomping their in-state P5 competition (Iowa and Iowa State). Butler is Top 25 even after losing Brad Stevens.

Wichita State is Top 25.

Creighton used to be like the Zips...now they're in the Big East (which is still a really good basketball conference).

When we play OOC, against someone you'd think we should wax, like Valparaiso, Oral Roberts, North Dakota State, IUPFW, etc...if we're lucky, we split. We've shown no ability to separate from the mid-major pack.

Some would say we're spoiled. But that's untrue. We're in a rut.

Our schedule and recruiting will allow us to maintain the 20-win streak for the next decade. That's great. But it equates to 3,800 fans watching MAC opponents, Arkansas Cream-Puff and Coppin State. We're not doing much to catch the casual fan's imagination.

I enjoy the Zips bb games, and love this year's team. Unlike the last couple seasons, the whole is greater than the sum of the parts.

But if they play in Round #1 in Oregon this year, I'll save the $2,000 and watch it on TV. Been there, done that.

I can't disagree with most of your post. But the biggest reason IMHO that we haven't moved forward is the lack of funding for the basketball program. All those programs you listed have one common denominator, the fact that they don't field a FBS football team. Several of them don't have football at all. Nor do they have additional womens programs that have to be funded to comply with Title 9. I'll leave it up to DIG to research, but I would bet that most of those programs spend at least twice what we spend on basketball. If we had the budgets they work with we could afford to buy some more home games against better opponents and have better travel arraignments for away games. I would even wager that we would have a nice new arena instead of a new football stadium. We are stuck in the classic case of the chicken and the egg. With out more funding we will never advance and draw more fans. With out more fans we will never have enough funding to advance. I'm really beginning to hate football more and more.

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