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Zipgrad01

Critiquing Coach Bowden

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1 minute ago, LZIp said:

Let's do some very simple math. Say average attendance increases a whopping 3k in the new coach's first season here due to a new excitement with the program. The cheapest ticket to get in is $15. Let's say the average ticket price is $20. $20 * 3,000 * 6 = $360k. Bowden's buyout is $300k, IIRC. His buyout will be paid for in the first year (not even including the donors who have apparently helped fund the buyout).  You're also assuming the new coach will be paid equal or more than TB. That won't be the case if someone like Arth comes in. Bottom line - you're being hyperbolic.

 

We can speculate all day. I see your point, but I disagree. I don't see us increasing attendance much in the first year of a new coach as the team performance will likely be comparable or not as good through the first season or two. Long-term, who knows.

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On 12/5/2018 at 4:58 PM, UAZipster0305 said:

Bowden deserved another year if for no other reason than UA cannot reasonably justify eating a $500,000 contract given its financial circumstances.

 

Also, while the progrum wasn't where we hoped it would be, Bowden is probably the most successful coach of our D-1 era. One bad season does not justify being fired, particularly given our football history. This was not a prudent decision.

 

Firing Bowden may seem somewhat extreme just to get a new offensive coordinator, but it had to be done.

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7 hours ago, Zipmeister said:

 

Firing Bowden may seem somewhat extreme just to get a new offensive coordinator, but it had to be done.

 

Bowden seems like a reasonable guy. If the AD approached him about demoting Milwee and bringing in someone else, I think he would have complied. I highly doubt that conversation ever took place though.

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12 hours ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

Our version of Frank Solich is fine by me.

 

You had me thinking right up to that line.  There' no comparison between Terry Bowden's 35-52 record at UA to Solich's 105-75 record at OU.  We could only wish Bowden was "Our version of Frank Solich."  He'd still be here and we'd think we had Paul Brown.

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19 minutes ago, clarkwgriswold said:

 

You had me thinking right up to that line.  There' no comparison between Terry Bowden's 35-52 record at UA to Solich's 105-75 record at OU.  We could only wish Bowden was "Our version of Frank Solich."  He'd still be here and we'd think we had Paul Brown.

Discount the initial 1-11 season and things look very different, especially given the MACEC, most ever wins in a season, the two bowls, and our first bowl victory, all in the last four years. We weren't at OU consistency yet, but I think we were headed there with Bowden. A new OC would have made a huge difference in results this season and going into next. Instead, we are rebuilding again...

Edited by UAZipster0305

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6 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

Discount the initial 1-11 season and things look very different, especially given the MACEC, the two bowls, and our first bowl victory, all in the last four years. We weren't at OU consistency yet, but I think we were headed there with Bowden. A new OC would have made a huge difference in results this season and going into next. Instead, we are rebuilding again...

 

Well then, I get to throw out Silich's first season which was one of his only two sub- .500 seasons in 14 seasons.  That's two sub-.500 seasons in 14 years as opposed to 5 out of 7 for Bowden. 

 

I can appreciate that you think Bowden should not have been canned, I just don't think Solich is a good comparison or analogy.

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14 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

Discount the initial 1-11 season and things look very different, especially given the MACEC, the two bowls, and our first bowl victory, all in the last four years. We weren't at OU consistency yet, but I think we were headed there with Bowden. A new OC would have made a huge difference in results this season and going into next. Instead, we are rebuilding again...

Take out his 1-11 season and he's still at a sub .500 record at 34-41. Making 2 bowls in 7 years isn't impressive. Roughly 2/3 of all FBS schools go to bowl games and 5-6 MAC teams go bowling per year. Out of Frank Solich 14 years at OU, he's finished 10 seasons with a winning record and only had 1 year with a losing record. Bowden had a losing record in 5 of his years and only finished 1 year above .500. The only comparison between the two is they both had a long enough tenure to tell what they were capable of. Frank's floor is a 6-6 team that will go bowling every year while his ceiling is 9-10 win team that will contend with the best teams in the MAC. Bowden's floor is a 4-5 win team that misses bowl games while his ceiling was a 7-8 win team that loses by 3 touchdowns to the best teams of the MAC.

Edited by kreed5120

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1 minute ago, clarkwgriswold said:

 

Well then, I get to throw out Silich's first season which was one of his only two sub- .500 seasons in 14 seasons.  That's two sub-.500 seasons in 14 years as opposed to 5 out of 7 for Bowden. 

 

I can appreciate that you think Bowden should not have been canned, I just don't think Solich is a good comparison or analogy.

 

Okay, maybe it wasn't the best analogy. I still had faith Bowden would have gotten us there.

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26 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

Take out his 1-11 season and he's still at a sub .500 record at 34-41. Making 2 bowls in 7 years isn't impressive. Roughly 2/3 of all FBS schools go to bowl games and 5-6 MAC teams go bowling per year. Out of Frank Solich 14 years at OU, he's finished 10 seasons with a winning record and only had 1 year with a losing record. Bowden had a losing record in 5 of his years and only finished 1 year above .500. The only comparison between the two is they both had a long enough tenure to tell what they were capable of. Frank's floor is a 6-6 team that will go bowling every year while his ceiling is 9-10 win team that will content with the best teams in the MAC. Bowden's floor is a 4-5 win team that misses bowl games while his ceiling was a 7-8 win team that loses by 3 touchdowns to the best teams of the MAC.

 

Bowden remains  the best D-1 coach we've ever had. The expectations of so many of you are unrealistic; we will never be a Boise State and likely not ever an NIU or Toledo. Someone like Solich is difficult to find. Anyone younger we get who is successful will be courted by larger schools with more money, and we will thus be repeating this process regularly.

Edited by UAZipster0305
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26 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

Bowden remains  the best D-1 coach we've ever had. The expectations of so many of you are unrealistic; we will never be a Boise State and likely not ever an NIU or Toledo. Someone like Solich is difficult to find. Anyone younger we get who is successful will be courted by larger schools with more money, and we will thus be repeating this process regularly.

Which IMO is what you want, you build a successful team & a P5 comes & takes the coach but than you replace with the next big up & comer name, it will be easier to find that guy if he knows there is a good chance he succeeds. Also if we succeed & put more butts in seats it will be easier financially to pay these guys which is handicapping us a little right now

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55 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

Anyone younger we get who is successful will be courted by larger schools with more money, and we will thus be repeating this process regularly.

Dammit...then we'd be like Toledo or NIU. Wouldn't that suck, Zips fans?

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2 minutes ago, Captain Kangaroo said:

Dammit...then we'd be like Toledo or NIU. Wouldn't that suck, Zips fans?

 

Going to all those bowl games in a financial drain on the fans Captain!

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1 hour ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

Bowden remains  the best D-1 coach we've ever had. The expectations of so many of you are unrealistic; we will never be a Boise State and likely not ever an NIU or Toledo. Someone like Solich is difficult to find. Anyone younger we get who is successful will be courted by larger schools with more money, and we will thus be repeating this process regularly.

What's your point? We had a string of very poor coaches. Bowden was just slightly less bad than the others. This is the MAC, there are no blue bloods holding us down. There is no reason Akron can't compete with Buffalo, Toledo, or NIU.

 

Edit: The programs you mentioned Toledo and NIU have had sustained success with multiple coaches. It's not impossible to achieve.

Edited by kreed5120

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10 hours ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

Bowden remains  the best D-1 coach we've ever had. The expectations of so many of you are unrealistic; we will never be a Boise State and likely not ever an NIU or Toledo. Someone like Solich is difficult to find. Anyone younger we get who is successful will be courted by larger schools with more money, and we will thus be repeating this process regularly.

You are 100% correct.

 

10 hours ago, 94zipgrad said:

Which IMO is what you want, you build a successful team & a P5 comes & takes the coach but than you replace with the next big up & comer name, it will be easier to find that guy if he knows there is a good chance he succeeds. Also if we succeed & put more butts in seats it will be easier financially to pay these guys which is handicapping us a little right now

Zips could be undefeated and you will not see more buts in the seats.

 

8 hours ago, kreed5120 said:

What's your point? We had a string of very poor coaches. Bowden was just slightly less bad than the others. This is the MAC, there are no blue bloods holding us down. There is no reason Akron can't compete with Buffalo, Toledo, or NIU.

 

Edit: The programs you mentioned Toledo and NIU have had sustained success with multiple coaches. It's not impossible to achieve.

Fails to recognize how bad the Zips were and the damage to the reputation. Lives in the Land of Make Believe...

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22 hours ago, Captain Kangaroo said:

Dammit...then we'd be like Toledo or NIU. Wouldn't that suck, Zips fans?

 

I think it is much more likely that we regress to where we are now or not even that.Expecting otherwise is the quintessential definition of insanity. Look at our history. What makes this time around any different?

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18 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

I think it is much more likely that we regress to where we are now or not even that.Expecting otherwise is the quintessential definition of insanity. Look at our history. What makes this time around any different?

I’m not trying to be a D***, but do you hear some of you guys?  If you struggle in life do you just give up & say I guess this is how I’m destined to live?  No, I believe you keep picking yourself off the floor until you succeed.  Sorry but some of you sound miserable.

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10 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

I think it is much more likely that we regress to where we are now or not even that.Expecting otherwise is the quintessential definition of insanity. Look at our history. What makes this time around any different?

Wouldn't the definition of insanity have been to keep Bowden and expect a different outcome next year from the past 7 years?  

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TB did win the East and get a us a bowl victory.  It was a fun season and he was probably the best available coach we could have hired to follow Ianello.  But taking an close look at the past Zips DI coaches, TB's legacy is being greatly over-hyped by some on this site that did not like his firing.

 

Gerry Faust and JD Brookhart both had better records than TB at Akron.  JD won .417 of his games and Gerry .447 to TB's .402.  Gerry did it while taking us from DI-AA OVC to DI-A Independent to the MAC which may not have been as bad as following Ianello, but was not an easy road.  Gerry also did not get a free win against a DI-AA opponent every year as he played an 11 game season.  Lee Owens did not get the free win either for the first part of his tenure.  The yearly stomping of Howard, Morgan State, etc. inflate TB's winning percentage from .350 to .402.  

 

GF (.438), LO (.432) and JD (.458) all had better MAC records than TB (.411).  All the prior coaches also played in an era where a 7-5 team did not get a bowl bid. 

 

If you wish TB was still here I get it, but please be honest that you are arguing to keep a coach that won 35% of his games against FBS opponents.  

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As I said in a previous post, Akrons sin was in keeping coaches too long.  It's hard to compare sports but I point to what Buffalo did in basketball to Reggie Witherspoon.   They coldly canned him and brought in Hurley.  They changed their program from "getting close" to stomping the MAC.  

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14 minutes ago, 94zipgrad said:

I’m not trying to be a D***, but do you hear some of you guys?  If you struggle in life do you just give up & say I guess this is how I’m destined to live?  No, I believe you keep picking yourself off the floor until you succeed.  Sorry but some of you sound miserable.

 

No, you stay grounded in reality and move forward. For Akron football that means having the perspective to realize we will never be Boise State. As I've expressed in another post, geography alone dictates that. The recovery from the worst D-1 program in the country to where we are now has been worthy of our loyalty to the coach who made that happen, especially given the current financial challenges of the University. After financial recovery or Bowden's contract expires or he chooses to leave, then we consider the possibility of taking the next step to grow into an NIU or Toledo.

 

In another program, we have more than Boise State in football or Gonzaga in basketball; neither of those programs have ever won an NCAAC. Think about it...Boise State and Gonzaga are not even the Akron soccer of football or basketball. And here we are on the verge of capturing our second NCAAC tomorrow night. In terms of universities in Ohio and other than OSU,  I believe only UC has won more than one team national championship and those two were over 50 years ago. No other MAC program has ever won a national championship. Point being, we already have the national prominence you desire; it just doesn't happen to be in your favorite sport. Nonetheless, this is the essence of our athletic culture!

 

Good football and championship soccer are not mutually exclusive, but let's have some perspective. I feel that unless we have a MACC in football every year, some of you won't be happy, and you don't think we can get there fast enough. It has taken soccer forty years of consistent winning and highly stable coaching tenures to get to this point. Now is not the time to fire another football coach prematurely and introduce the strong possibility of regressing to where Akron football has almost always been and further compromising University finances to do it. We need to establish ourselves as a consistent above average MAC football program, and that's where Bowden was taking us. For right now, we are inconsistent, and that's exactly what you'd expect from a program recently getting itself out of the cellar. Think about this: Bowden beat the B1G west champs in the same season that we fired him. That is absurd! When have we ever beaten even the worst of the B1G programs in football? That's right, never. It's rare that we've even been competitive let alone won.

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10 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

No, you stay grounded in reality and move forward. For Akron football that means having the perspective to realize we will never be Boise State. As I've expressed in another post, geography alone dictates that. The recovery from the worst D-1 program in the country to where we are now has been worthy of our loyalty to the coach who made that happen, especially given the current financial challenges of the University. After financial recovery or Bowden's contract expires or he chooses to leave, then we consider the possibility of taking the next step to grow into an NIU or Toledo.

 

In another program, we have more than Boise State in football or Gonzaga in basketball; neither of those programs have ever won an NCAAC. Think about it...Boise State and Gonzaga are not even the Akron soccer of football or basketball. And here we are on the verge of capturing our second NCAAC tomorrow night. In terms of universities in Ohio and other than OSU,  I believe only UC has won more than one team national championship and those two were over 50 years ago. No other MAC program has ever won a national championship. Point being, we already have the national prominence you desire; it just doesn't happen to be in your favorite sport. Nonetheless, this is the essence of our athletic culture!

 

Good football and championship soccer are not mutually exclusive, but let's have some perspective. I feel that unless we have a MACC in football every year, some of you won't be happy, and you don't think we can get there fast enough. It has taken soccer forty years of consistent winning and highly stable coaching tenures to get to this point. Now is not the time to fire another football coach prematurely and introduce the strong possibility of regressing to where Akron football has almost always been and further compromising University finances to do it. We need to establish ourselves as a consistent above average MAC football program, and that's where Bowden was taking us. For right now, we are inconsistent, and that's exactly what you'd expect from a program recently getting itself out of the cellar. Think about this: Bowden beat the B1G west champs in the same season that we fired him. That is absurd! When have we ever beaten even the worst of the B1G programs in football? That's right, never. It's rare that we've even been competitive let alone won.

I will stay grounded in reality, it was time for a change, the locker room dictated it from what I’ve heard

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10 minutes ago, 94zipgrad said:

I will stay grounded in reality, it was time for a change, the locker room dictated it from what I’ve heard

 

And what CK observed and was aware of indicated otherwise.

 

A change needed to be made and that was an intervention with Bowden to demote Milwee.

 

Agree to disagree.

Edited by UAZipster0305

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1 hour ago, NWAkron said:

As I said in a previous post, Akrons sin was in keeping coaches too long.  It's hard to compare sports but I point to what Buffalo did in basketball to Reggie Witherspoon.   They coldly canned him and brought in Hurley.  They changed their program from "getting close" to stomping the MAC.  

 

Yes, hard to compare sports, and it's likely more difficult in football in my opinion because there are so many more personnel and less games. One bad game has much more of an impact on evaluating the success or failure of a season in football than basketball.

 

With regard to Buffalo basketball, as you point out, they were "getting close". Akron football was by far the worst program in the country for several seasons. We may not have even been an average FCS program. TB was taking us from the cellar to average. So all else being equal between sports, the comparison doesn't hold. We are getting to average.

 

We could have held on another year and then made a change after Bowden's contract expired. That's all I'm saying.

Edited by UAZipster0305

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5 minutes ago, UAZipster0305 said:

 

And what CK observed and was aware of indicated otherwise.

 

A changes needed to be made and that was an intervention with Bowden to demote Milwee.

 

Agree to disagree.

I agree, but ultimately Bowden has to control his locker room.  He wasn’t, period

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