Browns Discussion

[LZIp]

Figure we should have a Browns thread on here as I imagine a lot of us are also fans of the team that plays on the shore of Lake Erie. Tomorrow is a big day. I'm a big believer in these guys in charge. Sashi, Paul, Hue, and Williams. Last season was very rough, but I think they are positioned pretty well for the future (outside of QB). With that said, I don't hate Kessler. He was better statistically than Wentz last season in just about every category, but I think he is limited.

 

Bunch of reports saying its split between Garrett and Trubs right now. I think its Garrett. The draft really starts at 2.

[Balsy]

I'm a believer in Hue and Williams.  I have NO faith in Sashi, Paul and Haslam.  Some of their moves have been TERRIBLE.  Letting players that you've grown from late round picks into usable/decent starting talent has been a terrible move; Tashaun Gipson for starters.  They certainly have set themselves in a position to make a big step, but their track record after one draft isn't promising.

 

My prediction for QB: Brock Osweiler will be the starting QB for the Browns come game one. Nothing against Kessler, but I just think he's not better than a backup.  I know everyone has been talking about the Browns dealing Osweiler but I have a feeling they won't find any takers, and there's nothing to lose by bringing him to camp.  Him coming to camp, he's a man with nothing to lose, go out there and play your heart out.  I think he's going to surprise.  He's not the QB of the future, but at this moment this is how I see it.

If the first pick is ANYTHING other than Garrett I will vomit. 

[LZIp]

Some pretty good thoughts, Balsy. Brock could very well be the starter next season and I believe it is worth giving him a second chance as well. He showed teams something for him to get paid all that money....

 

I think the only bad move the FO has made is with Schwartz. Lets be honest. Guys like Gipson, Mack, and Benjamin weren't going to stay here no matter what. Even though they probably did mess up with Schwartz, it is clear he was trying to use the Browns as leverage and then when that failed we tried to come back. I don't have a huge problem with setting a precedent that were aren't going to be everybody's negotiating tool. These guys aren't perfect but I think they are learning. There are positives you can point to as well. As I said above, people crap on them for passing on Wentz, but Kessler did just as well statistically last season. They traded a 3rd round pick for an All-Pro in Jamie Collins (and then re-signed him to a long term contract). They took a WR project who nobody wanted and turned him into a thousand yard receiver. BTW, TP did not want to come back either. They offered him more guaranteed money and years than anybody else. Pryor is making an incredibly risky move, IMO, with the deal he signed with Washington. I personally think Rosenhaus let him down during the process. Also, that NBA-esque trade for Brock was revolutionary and...well pretty genius if you ask me. Bad look for the Texans as they traded away their high profile QB signing after only a year to make cap space for Tony Romo, who then retired.

Edited April 27, 2017 by LZIp

[kreed5120]

One draft is too small of a sample size to give a fair evaluation. A huge part of last years draft was acquiring extra picks for this year and next years draft. It's also too soon to speculate how Coleman and others from last draft will pan out. We actually picked up Jamie Collins using a compensatory pick they acquired from letting one of Gibson, Schwartz, or Mack walk (not sure exactly which one). I believe in the philosophy of acquiring picks and exploiting other teams overvaluing this years picks over future years picks to maximize our return. They are pushing the envelope to find ways of acquiring more assets. Now it's just a matter of hitting on those picks and statistically speaking the more picks you have, the better your odds should be.

 

For once I actually feel the Browns have a real plan that is something more than just trying to rubber band and glue a team together then hope for the best.

Edited April 27, 2017 by kreed5120

[Balsy]

Great points, from both of you; and I get the enthusiasm...I'm starting to feel better about the Browns (pending what they do in this draft).  My biggest concern of course is the idea of asset acquisition; when do you stop acquiring "chance" and take quality.  Statistically speaking yes you do have a better chance of hitting on a good player by trading out of 1, picking at two lower picks.  But the last decade of history has shown that trading down for more picks does nothing for you if you don't actually find a player worthy of the pick, which goes to evaluation of talent.  Yes the book is still out on their evaluation of talent (one year isn't enough I agree), but so far I'm not impressed.  But lets be real here, probably most criticism is from 17 years of watching garbage, bad decisions, which isn't fair to judge them on. 

 

Side Note: I'd love to see one of the Zips players in the draft to land in a Browns uniform...probably as a UFA, but it would go a long way to making me feel like the Browns are actually paying attention and doing their homework.  The steelers have made a significant effort to watch MAC talent, and go out and get it.  The Browns really missed on Jatavis Brown, and Akron is pretty easy for Browns brass to pay attention to being 40-min drive, where most players would probably be over looked.

[kreed5120]

They very well might end up being terrible evaluators of talent. Time will tell. Either way I feel they have a really good plan. Now it's just a matter of if they can turn that draft capital into players that can actually perform. 

 

As long as teams are willing to continue giving up next years 3rd rounder for this years 4th rounder, I expect the Browns under this regime to always expose that market deficiency.

[Balsy]

Recap on the Browns Draft/My Thoughts.

 

No. 1: DE Myles Garrett

No.12:  (Trade Down to 25; Get First Rounder in 2018)

No. 25: S Jabril Peppers

No. 29: (Trade Up; Gave 2017 2nd Round, and their 4th Round pick ) TE David Njoku

 

I went to bed after they traded down from No. 12.  I was initially disappointed by the Trade Down, especially while Malik Hooker and OJ Howard were still on the board.  But apparently the analytics was able to pull in a decent S and a TE as well as a 2018 First Round pick.  Slam Dunk if I have to take it on face value.  I like Njoku, I like Garrett and I like Peppers.  In William Defense, I think Peppers will thrive at the SS position.  

 

Personally, I think the Browns did an excellent job of staying patient and not going into a panic to overdraft a QB.  I don't believe any of the QBs selected in round 1 will be a success in year 1, and they're set up with 2-1s, 3-2s next year to get the QB that they want in the draft if they don't find one in a later round.  I think Webb will be a Cleveland Brown when this year's draft is all said and done.

Overall, completely happy with the Brown's Draft in the first round, despite the initial worry.

 

 

[zippy5]

38 minutes ago, Balsy said:

they're set up with 2-1s, 3-2s next year 

 

 

Isn't this every year though? Why would you have faith that they just won't trade down again, and again..

[zen]

49 minutes ago, zippy5 said:

Isn't this every year though? Why would you have faith that they just won't trade down again, and again..

In 2024 they will have 16 first round picks and 31 second round picks.  

[LZIp]

Its pretty clear they are stock piling to go all in a guy whenever the time comes. Its a numbers game in the mean time. The franchise has tried taking QBs with clear limitations in the past and it has set them back years. Just about everybody said this was a weak QB class but this happened:

The QB position is the most valuable it's ever been. BTW - LOL at the Bears.

 

As for what the ended up with. The best player in the draft in Garrett. An additional first round pick for next season. Njoku is raw I think, but has a high ceiling. Howard will probably be a beast, but taking a TE as high as they could have is a luxury pick the Browns can't afford to make, IMO. I think I would have preferred Obi over Peppers at that spot, but I can't hate on it. He should fill the Mark Barron role nice for Gregg Williams. Check out how Barron's career looked pre Williams and post Williams. Should be fun to watch. Lets hope it works out. Rome wasn't built in a day. I'd look out for Davis Webb or Josh Dobbs today or tomorrow. Numbers game.

[kreed5120]

4 hours ago, zippy5 said:

Isn't this every year though? Why would you have faith that they just won't trade down again, and again..

 

They also traded up and finished with 3 1st rounders overall.

[kreed5120]

We now own both the Texans 1st and 2nd round picks next season. Hopefully they finish poorly.

[kreed5120]

3 hours ago, LZIp said:

Its pretty clear they are stock piling to go all in a guy whenever the time comes. Its a numbers game in the mean time. The franchise has tried taking QBs with clear limitations in the past and it has set them back years. Just about everybody said this was a weak QB class but this happened:

The QB position is the most valuable it's ever been. BTW - LOL at the Bears.

 

As for what the ended up with. The best player in the draft in Garrett. An additional first round pick for next season. Njoku is raw I think, but has a high ceiling. Howard will probably be a beast, but taking a TE as high as they could have is a luxury pick the Browns can't afford to make, IMO. I think I would have preferred Obi over Peppers at that spot, but I can't hate on it. He should fill the Mark Barron role nice for Gregg Williams. Check out how Barron's career looked pre Williams and post Williams. Should be fun to watch. Lets hope it works out. Rome wasn't built in a day. I'd look out for Davis Webb or Josh Dobbs today or tomorrow. Numbers game.

 

I do agree that TE is a bit of a luxury pick, but we are in desperate need of play makers on the offensive side of the ball and the receiving class was pretty weak so I understand the move. 

[LZIp]

I hope they take Mixon today (preferably in round 3). The one time character lapse at 18 years old aside, I think he very well could be the best RB in the draft. He is young and has very little wear and tear on his body, especially compared to the likes of McCaffrey and Fournette.

 

I'd bet they take another DB today as well as one tomorrow as well. Platoon the position like they did with WR last draft.

Edited April 28, 2017 by LZIp

[Dr Z]

I hope they take Dobbs. 

[LZIp]

18 minutes ago, Dr Z said:

I hope they take Dobbs. 

Do you think Pitt was planning to take Peppers and/or Njoku?

Edited April 28, 2017 by LZIp

[Dr Z]

2 hours ago, LZIp said:

Do you think Pitt was planning to take Peppers and/or Njoku?

I don't think so, but only a dozen or so really know. Their number one need was edge. They met with Butt, Wormley and Taco at UM's pro day, but not Peppers. They did have a pro day meeting with Njoku, but it might have had to do with their interest in Kaaya since he was also brought into Pittsburgh for a private meeting. It's also possible they thought Njoku could be available later. They met with a bunch of mid round safeties and tight ends, so I'll guess their plan was to address both after round one. They met with three safeties that will more than likely go in round two, I'm guessing they are hoping one is available this evening. With the speediness of getting the 30th pick in, I'll guess they were pretty happy to get an edge guy. That's what ever team says, right? It will be interesting to see if Peppers can develop as a first round talent at safety. Since (supposedly) it's not his strongest position, I would let him concentrate on that for awhile before risking injuries on offense. Just my opinion though. I'll guess that Peppers would have a tough time in the Burg being a first rounder, since the last one they drafted in the first round was a HOF'er. He would get sick of hearing that around town as he learned the position and league. 

 

Keeping on topic, I like what the Browns did in the first round by not taking a QB. I never believed they were taking Trubisky. But I have watched enough drafts in my life, to not count anything out when it comes to the Browns. I don't like any top media "rated" QBs in this draft for them. Next year, or after this draft, is their time to roll the dice on a signal caller, wether it's through the draft, or through free agency. 

 

If you really like to study video I love watching draft breakdown video. You view a condensed version of the game, and see every snap. Most of the time fans just view highlights, those are all good right? Fans watch a highlight video of the guy their team just drafted, and say "he's a beast." This is the video that analysts watch and say "he takes plays off" or stuff like that. How great would this be for Zips games, so we could study each player and prove their value or not?

 

Edit: 

NFL Network's Ian Rapoport reports the Browns have "touched base" with the Bengals about QB A.J. McCarron. Rapsheet is hearing that Cincinnati's asking price for McCarron is "high," which explains why talks haven't gotten very far. Cleveland did well to land Myles Garrett with the No. 1 pick, but that obviously doesn't solve the team's quarterback conundrum. The Bengals don't have much incentive to move McCarron, who is under contract through 2018. The Browns also checked in on Patriots backup Jimmy Garoppolo but were told he's not available.

[Balsy]

Browns take DeShone Kizer with pick #52 overall in the second round.  Personally, I wanted Davis Webb with the first third round pick, but he didn't last to that position either.  I like Kizer's size, I liked Webb's better.  I will stick by my prediction that Osweiller isn't going anywhere.  He has NFL experience, and you're paying $16-million for him regardless.  Might as well let him compete.  Osweiler will be the starter, and I bet Kizer will be the backup.  I can't imagine that the Browns wouldn't play him this year at some point.  With the draft capital they have next year they have to get a good look at him, and make the decision to either go after another QB or stick with him (an earlier Dak Prescott??).  I'm not sure how I feel about the pick, other than it being a decent roll of the dice.  If he shows something of possibly being the guy for years to come you're in perfect position to build a turn around team in 2018 with 2-1s, and 3-2s.  If he doesn't show promise you're still in position to land a QB of your liking in 2018.

What do you guys think?

The DT added in the 3rd seems like an okay pick.  Clearly they're going defense in this draft.  DE, S, DT.  I'd still like to see a LB, and a CB in the 5th.

[LZIp]

I like Ogubjobi. Meder and Cooper are fringe NFL players at best, so the 3 tech needed to be addressed. I'm not sure if Nassib can play it and Desmond Bryant is on the wrong side of 30 and only has one year left on his contract.

 

Kizer.....I just don't like Kizer. I don't know how you are supposed to be good and lead a blue blood to a 4-8 record and even get benched. He is inaccurate. Everybody seems to say he has all of the tools and he just needs to put it together on a consistent basis, so hopefully it will work out. It also goes against everything I thought as of yesterday morning in that the Browns are stockpiling assets to go all in on a QB in 2018, whether it be draft, FA, or trade.

 

I hope they take multiple DBs today. What I liked about this class is that it was stacked with DB talent. Not addressing it outside of Peppers who will be more of a hybrid player has me disappointed as now a lot of the better talent is gone and I think it is a big need. Jamar Taylor had his first decent year last year, so it is unclear how long that will be maintained. I love Joe Haden, but you just can't count on him to stay healthy. Breanne Boddy Calhoun was a nice UDFA pick up who I think has a future, but I would prefer some more talent on the roster.

Edited April 29, 2017 by LZIp

[Captain Kangaroo]

Hudson's Ben Gedeon (Michigan) goes to the Vikings in round 4.

[Balsy]

22 hours ago, LZIp said:

Kizer.....I just don't like Kizer. I don't know how you are supposed to be good and lead a blue blood to a 4-8 record and even get benched. He is inaccurate. Everybody seems to say he has all of the tools and he just needs to put it together on a consistent basis, so hopefully it will work out. It also goes against everything I thought as of yesterday morning in that the Browns are stockpiling assets to go all in on a QB in 2018, whether it be draft, FA, or trade.

 

Agreed, but they needed a QB in this draft, and I think this is a calculated dice roll.  It's cleveland, he's going to end up playing this year.  I highly doubt a Brock Osweiler/Cody Kessler tandom is going to light the NFL up to a point where you can't play Kizer at some point in the season.  He was once considered a top-5 prospect before going 4-8.  With Hue Jackson being the "QB Whisperer" than perhaps that's the reason they took the dice roll?

[Balsy]

At any rate it looks like the Browns dug into the MAC research a bit this year and picked up a few MAC players in the UFA:

 

DE  Jamal Marcus -- Akron (I think/hope he makes the team)

DE Ladell Flemming -- Northern Illinois

CB Najee Murray -- Kent State

 

 

[Dr Z]

On 4/29/2017 at 9:19 AM, LZIp said:

Kizer.....I just don't like Kizer. I don't know how you are supposed to be good and lead a blue blood to a 4-8 record and even get benched. He is inaccurate. Everybody seems to say he has all of the tools and he just needs to put it together on a consistent basis, so hopefully it will work out. It also goes against everything I thought as of yesterday morning in that the Browns are stockpiling assets to go all in on a QB in 2018, whether it be draft, FA, or trade.

I agree. I went back and watched three of his games last year and found nothing that would want to make me select him. But, he is young and (supposedly) coachable. I don't think this pick changes a thing the Browns can do next year, or even this year still, when it comes to a future QB. 

 

I know I'm in the minority, but I'm always entertained by Gruden.