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National Anthem


ZipsVoice

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35 minutes ago, Balsy said:

 

This is a fallacy.  Most immigrants come here legally.  Well...unless you want to count the colonists, they were the first illegal immigrators.  All you have to do is look up basic research on this, and you'll find answer to that.  He's not decreeing it...it's a fact.  See further comment below.

 

 

And you're both missing the point.  There is a segment of our society, our country, our nation; that did not come here willingly.  So making saying "came here for opportunity and achieve" is frankly some colored glasses BS.  Not only was that portion of our society brought here against their will, and for generations were sold as property; even after they were emancipated they were systematically disenfranchised because what...you expect freed property to be on the same level as the ones who used to own them?  Perhaps under law...but in practice...

 

Like sorry, this is a terrible take Keener.  It completely ignores the reality.  Yes there has been a lack of opportunity for minorities, historically (and on purpose), and hell...less than 50-years ago blacks and whites couldn't drink from the same coffee pot.  You can't expect there not to be a level of inequality still there.  Objectively.  Now it may require some empathy, moving outside of your own bubble to an uncomfortable place, but yes it is objectively true.

You can't automatically assume that my statements are coming from a evil, conservative, white privilege origin.  I wasn't intending to demean anyone by my statement.  Bernie Sanders ran an entire campaign on wealth inequality.  It is a fact.  Wealth inequality cannot even itself up naturally because the routes to wealth are not what they once were.  I am certainly not saying there is no hope for upward financial mobility in the U.S., but it is certainly not what it was 50 years ago.  I think this is a pretty well accepted fact.  The rich have gotten richer and the poor have gotten poorer.  Here's a news report that came out just this morning as a matter of fact. . . Gap between rich and poor continues to widen, latest Fed data show

 

People still want to emigrate here.  This is true.  But if it isn't for the golden opportunities that America presents, what is it for?  The U.S. is still a better place to live than almost anywhere on earth even if you're living in the welfare state.  It is no secret that American sentiment is moving away from the accepted traditions and realities of capitalistic wealth and more toward socialism, right?

 

My comment was not meant to say anything about racial issues.  Now that I've made it, I'm sorry I made it.

 

Why are we even having this discussion in the 9100 Attendance thread?

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4 hours ago, Balsy said:

 

Because reading it would require you stepping outside of your bubble, and considering something you hadn't before.  

No, because it was to long & I was working but I got the first paragraph & I have a son in a branch of the military now & grandfather that served as well & it is what I & most people believe.

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3 hours ago, 94zipgrad said:

No, because it was to long & I was working but I got the first paragraph & I have a son in a branch of the military now & grandfather that served as well & it is what I & most people believe.

 

There's no such thing as too long.  Again, it forces you to consider something you possibly hadn't considered before, like the following:

 

The military doesn't own the symbols of this country.  Patriotism is not determined by military service.  Both my grandfathers served in the military.  As did my great grandfathers and my great uncle.  Both of my grandfathers and my great uncle, whom I was rather close with, all didn't believe that pledges, anthems, and flags were a measure of patriotism that mattered.  I know this from conversations I've had with them. They all believed it was what you do to support your fellow citizen, and the common welfare that matters.  My grandfather (on my mother's side) refused to fly an american flag at his house because he was disgusted with McCarthyism, and swore to "high heaven, hell be in high water, and the great lord all mighty hath no fury"  (as my mother and grandmother tell the story) if he would be declared unpatriotic for not flying a flag.  He opposed segregation of the boy scouts.  He opposed segregation in schools, and spent his public life (elementary school teacher, principal and later Education Department; and positive status in the community) to work to overturning both of those things.  He was a great man.  His service in the military wasn't what made him great (what he told me when I asked a child about it) but his dedication to his community, to making it a better place for everyone everyday.  And I believe from what I know if him, he'd absolutely be supporting those kneeling in prayer during the national anthem.  From what I know of him; hell he would have said we needed more of that!

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15 minutes ago, Balsy said:

 

There's no such thing as too long.  Again, it forces you to consider something you possibly hadn't considered before, like the following:

 

The military doesn't own the symbols of this country.  Patriotism is not determined by military service.  Both my grandfathers served in the military.  As did my great grandfathers and my great uncle.  Both of my grandfathers and my great uncle, whom I was rather close with, all didn't believe that pledges, anthems, and flags were a measure of patriotism that mattered.  I know this from conversations I've had with them. They all believed it was what you do to support your fellow citizen, and the common welfare that matters.  My grandfather (on my mother's side) refused to fly an american flag at his house because he was disgusted with McCarthyism, and swore to "high heaven, hell be in high water, and the great lord all mighty hath no fury"  (as my mother and grandmother tell the story) if he would be declared unpatriotic for not flying a flag.  He opposed segregation of the boy scouts.  He opposed segregation in schools, and spent his public life (elementary school teacher, principal and later Education Department; and positive status in the community) to work to overturning both of those things.  He was a great man.  His service in the military wasn't what made him great (what he told me when I asked a child about it) but his dedication to his community, to making it a better place for everyone everyday.  And I believe from what I know if him, he'd absolutely be supporting those kneeling in prayer during the national anthem.  From what I know of him; hell he would have said we needed more of that!

Yes there is such a thing as too long.

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1 hour ago, K92 said:

Yes there is such a thing as too long.

 

Which is why my Juniors in high school can't write three sentences explaining how a condenser works.

 

Explaining why one group, or even one subgrroup within the group, in america doesn't get to dictate what is and is not patriotism; deserves a through heartfelt explanation.

Edited by Balsy
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7 hours ago, K92 said:

People still want to emigrate here.  This is true.  But if it isn't for the golden opportunities that America presents, what is it for? 

 

I had a very thoughtful response to this.  But I hit delete because "lengthy" thoughtful responses don't matter.  W/E.

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12 hours ago, Balsy said:

 

There's no such thing as too long.  Again, it forces you to consider something you possibly hadn't considered before, like the following:

 

The military doesn't own the symbols of this country.  Patriotism is not determined by military service.  Both my grandfathers served in the military.  As did my great grandfathers and my great uncle.  Both of my grandfathers and my great uncle, whom I was rather close with, all didn't believe that pledges, anthems, and flags were a measure of patriotism that mattered.  I know this from conversations I've had with them. They all believed it was what you do to support your fellow citizen, and the common welfare that matters.  My grandfather (on my mother's side) refused to fly an american flag at his house because he was disgusted with McCarthyism, and swore to "high heaven, hell be in high water, and the great lord all mighty hath no fury"  (as my mother and grandmother tell the story) if he would be declared unpatriotic for not flying a flag.  He opposed segregation of the boy scouts.  He opposed segregation in schools, and spent his public life (elementary school teacher, principal and later Education Department; and positive status in the community) to work to overturning both of those things.  He was a great man.  His service in the military wasn't what made him great (what he told me when I asked a child about it) but his dedication to his community, to making it a better place for everyone everyday.  And I believe from what I know if him, he'd absolutely be supporting those kneeling in prayer during the national anthem.  From what I know of him; hell he would have said we needed more of that!

tldr

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4 hours ago, Hilltopper said:

Political correctness is a modern form of left wing McCarthyism. It's why the mainstream media is afraid to call out the groups promoting this nonsense for fear of being labeled as racists, bigots etc...

 

But that same media sure enjoys baiting the Lefty's into calling the rest of us racists and bigots for not conforming.  

 

I'm not sure if too many people in the mainstream media even want to "call out" the groups promoting the nonsense.  I think most of them actually believes that this insanity makes sense.  

Edited by skip-zip
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Guys, I do not follow the NFL.  Those of you who do, what do you think of the allegations that the Raiders offensive line laid down on Derek Carr for not kneeling with them?  Truth or baloney?

 

Edited by K92
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For the Record:  Someone mentioned earlier that they say before games "Let Us rise, and take off our hats in honor of our service members" or something around that nature.  They do not.  I've been going to the Browns Games with my father for nearly 19 years, and just heard it for the Browns/Bengals game.  They very clearly say it's a dedication to the NATION, not service members.  Later they do a "salute for the troops" at the end of the 1st quarter where they play "proud to be an American" that is a salute to the troops.  Not a person kneels during that.

 

Just thought I'd point this out.  Stop being snowflakes.

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7 hours ago, K92 said:

Holy cow.  Goodell caves.  I’m guessing the numbers presented to him painted a dire picture.  So much for what he said a couple of weeks ago, I guess.

 

More like Goodell caved because NFL owners made him cave, because the president is threatening taxes.  Trump's free-handout-for-the-wealthy-tax-plan would lower NFL Billionaire tax rates from 40% to 25%.  

 

To address the contention that these protests have caused a decline in viewership, it's increased week to week, not decreased; which is opposite of the claim that the kneeling is affecting the bottom line.

 

Hopefully the players continue to kneel.  The NFL is going to bench/fine it's best players?  Really?  The Cowboys aren't going to play their best players if the kneel?  PLEASE call Jerry Jones out Cowboys players.  That's more a death sentence to the league than the snowflakes who cry about kneeling being disrespectful not watching.  Good luck Roger Goodell and NFL owners in Negotiations with the union in 2021 if you want to go that route.

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10 hours ago, K92 said:

Holy cow.  Goodell caves.  I’m guessing the numbers presented to him painted a dire picture.  So much for what he said a couple of weeks ago, I guess.

 

We all had to know that the NFL's own concern for MONEY would eventually make some people get wise.  But, I think the next step is going to be outrage from a few players because their "rights are being violated".   There will be a few guys who will be defiant, and continue their behavior.  The league might fine them, but they will join Colin as the poster child for the great American liberal revolution.  :lol:

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3 hours ago, Balsy said:

To address the contention that these protests have caused a decline in viewership, it's increased week to week, not decreased; which is opposite of the claim that the kneeling is affecting the bottom line.

 

You missed the part of your own article where it said that it's "improved" since the disastorous start of the season, but is still down 7.2%   That's a huge number, my friend.   And you've probably missed all of the stories about how people were tuning in just to see the beginning of games, to entertain themselves by seeing what these rich athletes were going to do, and then switched to other programs. 

 

Maybe you weren't an economics major, but here's more data to show you that this kind of idiotic behavior affects more things on down the line than you might acknowledge.  Slumps or volatility in stock prices among the Networks that carry the games means that executives could get very nervous about bidding the astronomical amounts for TV rights that we've seen in the past.  

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mikeozanian/2017/09/23/nfl-broadcasting-stocks-slump-as-protests-rise-and-tv-ratings-slump/#3b3e353e4eec

 

At the end of the day, this will all eventually go away, because nobody, including the players, will allow their wallets to drain over their continued tantrum over Trump winning the election. 

 

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3 hours ago, Balsy said:

To address the contention that these protests have caused a decline in viewership, it's increased week to week, not decreased; which is opposite of the claim that the kneeling is affecting the bottom line.

The NY post? Seriously? Not only is this not the "peer-reviewed research" you are constantly clamoring for, but a tabloid?!

Edited by LZIp
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