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Game 13—@Western Michigan


clarkwgriswold

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1 minute ago, clarkwgriswold said:

Do I think a UA NCAA tourneprobable?  No.  However, I've seen enough of teams like CSU, Richmond, George Mason, VCU, Davidson and so on to think there's not a shot under the right circumstances.  Also, what were once great Cinderellas like Butler, Gonzaga and Wichita State have transitioned into becoming powerhouses, so I am not willing to concede UA can't some day have a run.

I think it's much harder now because of the deliberate seeding to eliminate cinderellas early.  While viewers like the underdog, a MAC school doesn't have the high $ fans.

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Do I think Akron has any chance of making a Final 4? No, but what's so far fetched about making the round of 32 or Sweet 16? It's a single game elimination tournament, not a best of 7 series. You don't have to be the better team to win. You just have to put yourself in a position that a few lucky bounces swinging your way puts you in a position to win.

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6 minutes ago, ZachTheZip said:

 

Maybe the fact that you have to make the tournament to have a chance to win a game in it, and we're currently not good enough to make any postseason tournament.

No one is discussing our current team. Everyone (almost?) knows you're a pretty long shot to make a tournament with 9 active scholarship players, 5 of whom are Freshman.

 

The discussion is regarding why some people think what's possible/expected for North Dakota State, Northern Iowa, Ohio U, MTSU and on and on and on... is somehow impossible for The University of Akron.

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9 hours ago, lilroodude said:

 

Sounds to me like you don't have to bet or root against "your" Zips, considering you've already written them off.

 

A fellow MAC school recently advanced to the Sweet 16, two years after advancing to the second round, with our current head coach. Look at the financial numbers; there isn't much of a difference, except they teach budgeting down in Athens. Gonzaga, Butler, Xavier, Creighton are all private schools I believe, without football; I wouldn't use them as comps. Other schools to win an NCAA tournament game since 2013 (our last appearance): Stephen F. Austin (twice), Arkansas Little Rock, Georgia State, Northern Iowa, UAB, Harvard (twice), Mercer, La Salle (Sweet 16), Florida Gulf Coast (Sweet 16). How many of those teams would you expect Akron to beat in a normal, non-rebuilding year? I'm sure their financials are equal to, if not worse than Akron's basketball financials. 

 

The Xaviers, Butlers, Creightons, and Gonzagas of the world all came from the same place: nowhere. They came out of nowhere, built solid programs, enjoyed success on the national stage on numerous occasions, and now their private school ybudgets are bigger. Big whoop. Akron can be them, we just need the right leader to get us there and build the proper program culture.

You can see the trees, but not the forrest.  Those mid-major don't have football, hence much of their athletic budget goes to MBB.nor do they have an annual debt service on their stadium of 4.3 million per year for 20 years.     I have never given up on the Zips, I have seen nearly every home game for 40 plus years.                     What I fail to understand is the constant Dambrot bashing and the fixation with the NCAA tourney.and your willingness to trade a tournament win for 21 win seasons and MAC finals. To be  clear, I am hoping for success this season and next, but unlike you and a few others, I am trying to be realistic. 

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10 hours ago, zipnetter55 said:

Do any of you really believe that a school like Akron has a realistic shot to advance in the NCAA tourney? 

.

 

I am safely in the "really believe" camp as someone who hasn't had a reason to even drive through the state of Ohio in years, but yet possesses his very own Zippy bobblehead.

 

 

IMG_2512 (1).jpg

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9 hours ago, zipnetter55 said:

....and the fixation with the NCAA tourney and your willingness to trade a tournament win for....

I'll admit it, I'm fixated on the NCCA tournament, and willing to" trade" just about anything (in the program) for a tournament win. The tournament is arguably the greatest event in sports. 

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10 hours ago, zipnetter55 said:

You can see the trees, but not the forrest.  Those mid-major don't have football, hence much of their athletic budget goes to MBB.nor do they have an annual debt service on their stadium of 4.3 million per year for 20 years.     I have never given up on the Zips, I have seen nearly every home game for 40 plus years.                     What I fail to understand is the constant Dambrot bashing and the fixation with the NCAA tourney.and your willingness to trade a tournament win for 21 win seasons and MAC finals. To be  clear, I am hoping for success this season and next, but unlike you and a few others, I am trying to be realistic. 

 

I mentioned that those private schools don't have football, but some of the other mid-majors do have football. The Info's financial situation certainly hurts UA's athletics budget, specifically men's basketball, but we still turn revenue that ranks in the upper half of the MAC, a conference that has had several schools make serious NCAA Tournament runs (OU :puke:, Can't :puke:, etc.). 

 

I apologize for my fixation with the NCAA Tournament. I didn't realize millions upon millions of people filled out brackets for the regular season, and took time off work to watch a day's worth of regular season college basketball. The NCAA Tournament is one of the greatest events in sports, and I'm sorry for my wish that Akron has success in the tourney. 

 

Myself and a few others are being realistic. We had a coach that, in 13 or so seasons, had zero NCAA Tournament wins despite consecutive 21+ win seasons against low-level competition. In 4 years of that same time period, our current coach took our rival, OU, to the 2nd round and the Sweet Sixteen. My takeaway from those stats is realistic optimism that we made the right hire to take this program to the next level, which is winning in the NCAA Tournament. I don't see a banner in the JAR for our 21+ win seasons; I do see a banner (I believe) at the Convo that shows their 2nd Round and Sweet Sixteen accomplishments. 

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2 hours ago, Dr Z said:

I'll admit it, I'm fixated on the NCCA tournament, and willing to" trade" just about anything (in the program) for a tournament win. The tournament is arguably the greatest event in sports. 

 

I get it.  

 

11 hours ago, zipnetter55 said:

What I fail to understand is the constant Dambrot bashing and the fixation with the NCAA tourney.and your willingness to trade a tournament win for 21 win seasons and MAC finals. To be  clear, I am hoping for success this season and next, but unlike you and a few others, I am trying to be realistic. 

 

I get this too.

 

What I think really bothers me the most is the number of people who seem like they don't care how many games we win.  The problem with that philosophy is that you're far more likely to be a team that can have success in the MAC tournament, and the NCAA tournament if you are a team that has won a lot of games.  

 

I want to win basketball games again, and become a good team.  When that happens, maybe I can start thinking about getting to a MAC tourney final again, with a chance to get to the Big Dance.  

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I really wish we could get past the persistent "Dambrot argument" on here.  There's way too much knee jerk reaction on both sides of the "argument."  Just because a poster supports Groce, likes some of the changes and may have been unhappy with certain aspects of the team under Dambrot (i.e. strength of schedule, lack of tournament success...), that doesn't mean they don't appreciate everything KD did for this program.  On the other side of the "argument", one can be an unabashed KD supporter and still wholeheartedly support the Zips and Groce.  

 

I for one, was critical of some of the aspects of the KD program, but appreciate everything he did.  He certainly made UA basketball relevant.  If I'd have been overall unhappy, I'd have voted by not consistently renewing my season tickets and showing up to every game.  I'm certainly not giving up those 20 win seasons and MAC titles.  Thus far, I'm happy with Groce and that will keep my butt in the seats with good memories of KD AND hopes for Groce's future with the Zips.

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30 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

What I think really bothers me the most is the number of people who seem like they don't care how many games we win.  The problem with that philosophy is that you're far more likely to be a team that can have success in the MAC tournament, and the NCAA tournament if you are a team that has won a lot of games.  

 

I think you're misunderstanding those of us that poke fun at the 21 game thing. Winning a lot of games is good. I want to win a lot of games against good teams, too. 

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25 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

I get it.  

 

 

I get this too.

 

What I think really bothers me the most is the number of people who seem like they don't care how many games we win.  The problem with that philosophy is that you're far more likely to be a team that can have success in the MAC tournament, and the NCAA tournament if you are a team that has won a lot of games.  

 

I want to win basketball games again, and become a good team.  When that happens, maybe I can start thinking about getting to a MAC tourney final again, with a chance to get to the Big Dance.  

The 2 goals are not incompatible. I too hope for tournament success, but it is not as all-important as you suggest.  I watched season after season of bad teams under Crawford, Hipsher,Rupert and others and it wasn't much fun. Ask yourself which is a better recruiting tool, ten 21 win seasons, or an occasional tournament appearance? Just ask Noah Robot ham or Antonio or Big Dog what sold them on Akron. To me, a banner honoring an NCAA appearance in the 2nd round or Sweet 16 carries less significance then ten 21 win seasons and numerous MAC finals, but I certainly understand your preference. Perhaps you never suffered through all those poor teams and bad seasons, if you had, you might have valued what Dambrot did for the program

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1 hour ago, skip-zip said:

 

I get it.  

 

 

I get this too.

 

What I think really bothers me the most is the number of people who seem like they don't care how many games we win.  The problem with that philosophy is that you're far more likely to be a team that can have success in the MAC tournament, and the NCAA tournament if you are a team that has won a lot of games.  

 

I want to win basketball games again, and become a good team.  When that happens, maybe I can start thinking about getting to a MAC tourney final again, with a chance to get to the Big Dance.  

Skip I really appreciate your posts and enjoy the back and forth but chill on telling us what we care and don't care about.  Dambrot methods v. Groce methods is a fun debate perfect for a sports blog.  And considering the dull nature of the season so far that debate is the only game in town until this team pulls off some big wins or something else crazy happens.

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1 hour ago, zipnetter55 said:

The 2 goals are not incompatible. I too hope for tournament success, but it is not as all-important as you suggest.  I watched season after season of bad teams under Crawford, Hipsher,Rupert and others and it wasn't much fun. Ask yourself which is a better recruiting tool, ten 21 win seasons, or an occasional tournament appearance? Just ask Noah Robot ham or Antonio or Big Dog what sold them on Akron. To me, a banner honoring an NCAA appearance in the 2nd round or Sweet 16 carries less significance then ten 21 win seasons and numerous MAC finals, but I certainly understand your preference. Perhaps you never suffered through all those poor teams and bad seasons, if you had, you might have valued what Dambrot did for the program

 

I actually agree with you.  I'm not sure why you might be including me in the "NCAA tournament...and nothing else matters" crowd.  I think I spelled that out pretty well. 

 

I think you might be the first person here who's accused me of slighting Keith's accomplishments.  I've been at games since the early 80's as a student.  So, I know what you're saying.  I think that makes me more inclined to value what Keith did, and it seems that you agree.  

 

Also, let me add that  a college basketball team does not have to wait for an occasional NCAA game to record valued wins.     

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58 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

Skip I really appreciate your posts and enjoy the back and forth but chill on telling us what we care and don't care about.  Dambrot methods v. Groce methods is a fun debate perfect for a sports blog.  And considering the dull nature of the season so far that debate is the only game in town until this team pulls off some big wins or something else crazy happens.

 

Thanks.  I appreciate your thoughts as well.  And I agree with you on that last sentence.  

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1 hour ago, zipnetter55 said:

The 2 goals are not incompatible. I too hope for tournament success, but it is not as all-important as you suggest.  I watched season after season of bad teams under Crawford, Hipsher,Rupert and others and it wasn't much fun. Ask yourself which is a better recruiting tool, ten 21 win seasons, or an occasional tournament appearance? Just ask Noah Robot ham or Antonio or Big Dog what sold them on Akron. To me, a banner honoring an NCAA appearance in the 2nd round or Sweet 16 carries less significance then ten 21 win seasons and numerous MAC finals, but I certainly understand your preference. Perhaps you never suffered through all those poor teams and bad seasons, if you had, you might have valued what Dambrot did for the program

 

I was young when Hipsher was here, and do not recall as vividly our level of play when he was here. I remember he had awesome players (Weinkein, Ball, Bosley, Phillips, etc.). I've been coming to games since his era, but really started to notice the level of play when Dambrot took over. I am very appreciative of what he did to grow the program, and I dislike when the accusation is made that "Dambrot bashers" are not appreciative. I didn't like Dambrot's excuses, I didn't like that the program had plateaued, but I am very happy he took this program to new heights.

 

The best recruiting tool is making an NCAA Tournament run, and I don't think that can be questioned. That's also what I'm arguing for, not just an occasional tournamnt appearance. The amount of exposure an NCAA Tournament run provides is 10x what ten 21 win seasons and an occasional tournament appearance would do for recruiting. All these programs that make the NCAA Tournament runs, their fall out comes when the coach leaves for the next job, not because they were just a flash in the pan. George Mason had Coach L leave for the U. VCU had Shaka Smart leave for Texas. FGCU had their coach leave for USC. Butler had Stevens leave for the Boston Celtics, but look at what he left behind - a strong foundation. Really the only couple of programs to keep their coaches are Gonzaga, Creighton, and Wichita State. 

 

15 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

I actually agree with you.  I'm not sure why you might be including me in the "NCAA tournament...and nothing else matters" crowd.  I think I spelled that out pretty well. 

 

I think you might be the first person here who's accused me of slighting Keith's accomplishments.  I've been at games since the early 80's as a student.  So, I know what you're saying.  I think that makes me more inclined to value what Keith did, and it seems that you agree.  

 

Also, let me add that  a college basketball team does not have to wait for an occasional NCAA game to record valued wins.     

 

I think he meant to quote my post. 

 

No, but typically those valued wins come en route to NCAA Tournament success, or are otherwise viewed as less valued if the end result is less than desirable.

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3 hours ago, skip-zip said:

 

I get it.  

 

 

I get this too.

 

What I think really bothers me the most is the number of people who seem like they don't care how many games we win.  The problem with that philosophy is that you're far more likely to be a team that can have success in the MAC tournament, and the NCAA tournament if you are a team that has won a lot of games.  

 

I want to win basketball games again, and become a good team.  When that happens, maybe I can start thinking about getting to a MAC tourney final again, with a chance to get to the Big Dance.  

Skip, I totally agree, we have to ... win 20 plus games and at least make  it to the MAC finals BEFORE talking NCAA.  TO be clear, I never included you among the Dambrot bashers  

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9 minutes ago, zipnetter55 said:

Skip, I totally agree, we have to ... win 20 plus games and at least make  it to the MAC finals BEFORE talking NCAA.  TO be clear, I never included you among the Dambrot bashers  

 

Groce's second year at OU.

 

22-15 was their final record, including 7-9 in the MAC regular season. They had 4 MAC Tourney wins and won their first round NCAA Tournament game. That's 5 postseason wins. So in the regular season, they had 17 wins, got to Cleveland, and then got to the NCAA Tournament AND won a game. By the way, they beat a 24-11 Akron squad in the MAC title game. They may not have won 20+ in the regular season, but they won when it mattered. Two years later, they nearly went to the Elite 8. 

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1 hour ago, lilroodude said:

The best recruiting tool is making an NCAA Tournament run, and I don't think that can be questioned.

 

You have to ask yourself, "Did these accomplishments catapult OU over Akron in the years that followed their two NCAA tournament appearances and wins?"  Nope.  I think you'd clearly win the argument if you said that Akron was on top after this "OU run" period, and thus was probably attracting the better players, despite our "empty 21 win seasons".  

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Just now, skip-zip said:

 

 

You have to ask yourself, "Did these accomplishments catapult OU over Akron in the years that followed their two NCAA tournament appearances and wins?"  Nope.  I think you'd clearly win the argument if you said that Akron was on top after this "OU run" period, and thus was probably attracting the better players, despite our "empty 21 win seasons".  

 

I covered this in a previous post by mentioning the majority of schools that have made tournament runs had coaching changes. The same applies to OU. Ask Caris Levert why he committed to OU before decommitting and going to Michigan when Groce left for Illinois. 

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59 minutes ago, lilroodude said:

I covered this in a previous post by mentioning the majority of schools that have made tournament runs had coaching changes.

 

Then lets just talk about the recruits who came to OU right after their first NCAA Tournament "run" in 2010, since that covers the Groce era.  That experienced NCAA tournament group, along with their new recruits, did't even make it past the Quarterfinals in the MAC the following year, while Akron went all the way to the Title Game, and won.  In addition, when that core group of OU stars were Seniors, they got absolutely spanked by the Zips in the title game, playing without a point guard.  

 

I'm addressing one thing here.  Your flawed assertion that winning in an NCAA tournament game is the overwhelming difference-maker in recruiting.  

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10 minutes ago, skip-zip said:

 

Then lets just talk about the recruits who came to OU right after their first NCAA Tournament "run" in 2010, since that covers the Groce era.  That experienced NCAA tournament group, along with their new recruits, did't even make it past the Quarterfinals in the MAC the following year, while Akron went all the way to the Title Game, and won.  In addition, when that core group of OU stars were Seniors, they got absolutely spanked by the Zips in the title game, playing without a point guard.  

 

I'm addressing one thing here.  Your flawed assertion that winning in an NCAA tournament game is the overwhelming difference-maker in recruiting.  

 

Those OU seniors got spanked without Groce, and beneath them was a transition year. And then Akron went on to get spanked by 40+ in the NCAA Tournament. 

 

Do 21+ win seasons assist in recruiting? Absolutely, especially when some of those wins come against legitimate competition. However, those seasons are pretty empty in the eyes of many when they end without any noise in the NCAA Tournament. 

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1 minute ago, lilroodude said:

 

Those OU seniors got spanked without Groce, and beneath them was a transition year. And then Akron went on to get spanked by 40+ in the NCAA Tournament. 

 

Do 21+ win seasons assist in recruiting? Absolutely, especially when some of those wins come against legitimate competition. However, those seasons are pretty empty in the eyes of many when they end without any noise in the NCAA Tournament. 

I think this is yet another example of being "factually correct." (One of my all-time favorite means of stating - "You're right, but I'm not going to admit it.")

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