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kreed5120

Game 18 - MIAMI (OH) REDHAWKS

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A lot of missed opportunities.  A missed layup by Sayles.  A pass that went through Ivy's hands and out of bounds.  Each one not that big, but with so many of those type of plays, the offense just disappeared with 10 minutes left in the game.   Need to take care of the little things to be able to win on the road.

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2 hours ago, zipfan84 said:

Why does this team refuse to rebound? That, along with defensive intensity, is something that they can control and do every time out.

 

Shooting is more hit or miss (pun intended)

 

Yep, scoring can be a skill thing.  Defense and rebounding are effort and technique things.

 

When I used to coach, I had this awful drill when my kids weren't rebounding.  I'd match kids up three on three, into three pairs and put them around the circle.  I'd put three inside and three outside, put the ball in the middle of the circle and blow the whistle.  The three inside guys had to get their keesters on the outside guys and keep them from getting the ball and long as possible.  It occasionally got close to violent, but they sure as hell learned to box out.

 

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A couple things about rebounding. First off, It doesn't help when our best rebounder is only 6'4. Secondly, it doesn't help we're forced to play 4 guards and only 1 big because frankly we have no other choice. Hell tonight there was a stretch we played 5 guards and no bigs. We've gotten very little production from our bigs.

Edited by kreed5120

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On a some what related note to my last post. We've asked Utomi to be our de facto stretch 4. He's getting outsized by 3-4 inches and I can only guess how many pounds per game. I think he's done a good job defensively for his size to not be exploited, but I wonder if it has had an impact on his offensive game. One has to think he's spending quite a bit of energy to make up for his size.

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6 minutes ago, kreed5120 said:

On a some what related note to my last post. We've asked Utomi to be our de facto stretch 4. He's getting outsized by 3-4 inches and I can only guess how many pounds per game. I think he's done a good job defensively for his size to not be exploited, but I wonder if it has had an impact on his offensive game. One has to think he's spending quite a bit of energy to make up for his size.

Good call.  He was really working hard in the EMU game the other night.  It has to take it out of you.  I guess we should be happy that his man isn't at least 6 inches taller than him like LCJ.  

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5 hours ago, kreed5120 said:

A couple things about rebounding. First off, It doesn't help when our best rebounder is only 6'4. Secondly, it doesn't help we're forced to play 4 guards and only 1 big because frankly we have no other choice. Hell tonight there was a stretch we played 5 guards and no bigs. We've gotten very little production from our bigs.

 

Your point is well taken. But I think it's more than that. They simply show no interest in rebounding. Maybe they are expending all their energy on defense and there's nothing left when it's time to crash the boards.

 

Not trying to make excuses but there has to be SOME reason for it.

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6 hours ago, zipfan84 said:

 

Your point is well taken. But I think it's more than that. They simply show no interest in rebounding. Maybe they are expending all their energy on defense and there's nothing left when it's time to crash the boards.

 

Not trying to make excuses but there has to be SOME reason for it.

How about bad coaching!   I am so tired of watching Utomi take a 3 pointer with a high arching shot and just stand there like a statute instead of moving his feet toward the basket and going for his own rebound.  All of these guys love to stand there and watch their 3 point shot.  I was taught at a very early age that after you shoot your ball you move toward the basket.  The way we are shooting the 3 ball in MAC play, there is a 77% probability that there will be a rebound.  Start moving towards the basket instead of away from it when a shot goes up.  Our centers are the only one trying to rebound the ball and they are slow to the ball and not good rebounders.  Is anyone on this team a good offensive rebounder?

 

It is tough to win on the road.  Last year we were 2 -10 and this year we are 0-5.    And we just lost to a team that did not have a win in the MAC.  

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14 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

How about bad coaching!   I am so tired of watching Utomi take a 3 pointer with a high arching shot and just stand there like a statute instead of moving his feet toward the basket and going for his own rebound.  All of these guys love to stand there and watch their 3 point shot.  I was taught at a very early age that after you shoot your ball you move toward the basket.  The way we are shooting the 3 ball in MAC play, there is a 77% probability that there will be a rebound.  Start moving towards the basket instead of away from it when a shot goes up.  Our centers are the only one trying to rebound the ball and they are slow to the ball and not good rebounders.  Is anyone on this team a good offensive rebounder?

 

It is tough to win on the road.  Last year we were 2 -10 and this year we are 0-5.    And we just lost to a team that did not have a win in the MAC.  

 

........or the players are not listening to the coaches.

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2 minutes ago, zipfan84 said:

 

........or the players are not listening to the coaches.

This coach is the one who recruited these players except Ivey, E man and Utomi.  If the recruited guys that won't listen to him, it is on him.  He has gone the transfer route recruiting players that did not work out somewhere else.  The jury is still out on whether that is working.  We are still early  in the season but this team needs to learn to win on the road.

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15 hours ago, UAZippers said:

I really don't like singling out players, but I think the Zips offensive woes can be atrributed largely to Utomi. I am not sure that I have ever been so let down by a player playing so passively. Utomi is an athletic freak and can shoot the lights out, but a large majority of the game I forget that he is on the floor. 

 

I just looked it up and he is shooting 20-60(33%) and 11-39(28%) from 3 during MAC play. That is depressing coming from a guy who is as talented as any player in our conference. 

UAZippers, I agree with your post save one caveat, which I highlighted above.  Utomi is built like a Greek god, but I don't think he's an athletic freak.  To me he looks kinda slow, kinda stiff, can't elevate & can't handle the ball very well.  He's a shooter.  When his outside shot's not falling I don't think he has great confidence taking it to the hoop.  Even on occasional fast breaks he can't elevate to throw it down.  It looks like he's usually trying to draw a foul.

 

I know Utomi's awfully chill, but you're right, it looks like he's playing passively.  Kreed's point about having to spend so much energy on defense may be the problem.  Anyhow, I like the attitudes of Ivey, Cheese & Banks (even Toles - in street clothes on the bench - is a wellspring of positive energy).  I wish Utomi would follow suit.

 

Edited by Blue & Gold
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When I watched Jackson early in the season I was very impressed with his game and noticed that he was a step quicker than everyone else on the floor.  He could beat his man off the dribble and had a good outside shot.  I also noticed how after penetrating he would find the open man or finish at the basket.  He also was rebounding the ball.  

 

Yesterday, Jackson came back into the game with a 6 point lead and that lead became a 12 point deficit.  He was completely ineffective in the second half.  He turned the ball over, played bad defense, and could not buy a shot until the game was long gone.  He is having difficulty penetrating and when he can penetrate he cannot finish at the hoop.  The one time he did finish is when Groce pulled the center and it opened up the lane.  He is also struggling with his 3 point shot like everyone on the team.  We need him to play well the entire game.  If he is not playing well, pull him and let Cheese play the point.  We need more from our point guard if we are going to win a game on the road. 

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We need more points than the other team:rolleyes:.  Don't shoot the 3 but if you do follow it but also make sure you get back on defense.   Box out.  Make your lay ups.  Get more rebounds than the opponent.  No empty possessions.  Lots of problems here.  Hopefully back to even in the MAC by Wednesday

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I'd like to see them get out and run a little, but they seem content to play on offense the same slow deliberate pace they try to get other teams to play through their defense.  Jackson, Cheese, Banks, Ivey and Sayles are all very good in transition.  Unfortunately, the offense now seems to focus on passing it around the perimeter until they get a three point opportunity.

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My concern is that this team is fundamentally bad in many areas. They don't block out, they watch to see if the ball goes in or they fall back on D. After 15 minutes in the game they stop moving when on offense. They settle for the 3 too early in the shot clock and don't seem to want to work the ball for a better shot. They constantly shoot with no one under to rebound. Their decision making is poor. With all that being said I am wondering if Groce and staff are getting thru to them. I have always believed in the saying "You are either coaching it or allowing it" when it comes to flaws in your game. At some time the coaching staff needs to change the way this team plays. It's not too early to expect better play. The talent is there even if the centers are not.

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1 hour ago, 72 Roo said:

My concern is that this team is fundamentally bad in many areas. They don't block out, they watch to see if the ball goes in or they fall back on D. After 15 minutes in the game they stop moving when on offense. They settle for the 3 too early in the shot clock and don't seem to want to work the ball for a better shot. They constantly shoot with no one under to rebound. Their decision making is poor. With all that being said I am wondering if Groce and staff are getting thru to them. I have always believed in the saying "You are either coaching it or allowing it" when it comes to flaws in your game. At some time the coaching staff needs to change the way this team plays. It's not too early to expect better play. The talent is there even if the centers are not.

Am I the only one that feels that way.  I watched the football struggle to score and ranked last in offense.  Now I am watching another Zips team that cannot score and will probably rank last in offense in the MAC.

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43 minutes ago, 1981 grad said:

Am I the only one that feels that way.  I watched the football struggle to score and ranked last in offense.  Now I am watching another Zips team that cannot score and will probably rank last in offense in the MAC.

You aren't the only one.  It is an unfortunate coincidence.  I have no doubt the basketball staff is seeing and thinking everything we are.  (We weren't so sure with football and Milwee.)  The coach can't make the ball go thru the basket.  My guess is that they are trying to compensate for the problems on the offensive end by focusing on defense and trying to keep the score low.  That's not working either.  Im sure the coaches can't keep on telling the players not to take 3s and think the players will keep confidence in their stroke.

Edited by NWAkron
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18 hours ago, clarkwgriswold said:

I'd like to see them get out and run a little, but they seem content to play on offense the same slow deliberate pace they try to get other teams to play through their defense.  Jackson, Cheese, Banks, Ivey and Sayles are all very good in transition.  Unfortunately, the offense now seems to focus on passing it around the perimeter until they get a three point opportunity.

 

You guys are all hitting on the right questions. NWAkron points out that stiff defense is our only route to victory, especially on the road. Last game we produced 6 points total from the center position. The rest of the MAC can read box scores too and that just adds more stress on our guards. When the Zips are on the same page defensively they are actually quite good and their Kenpom ranking (#57) bares that out. But they do have mental lapses and it's very frustrating to watch the opponent drive the lane untouched. But not only do I see "Angry Groce" flare up, but LCJ is starting to take over this team and holding teammates accountable. They know what needs to be done, but they are lacking consistency.

 

If we are locking down so tightly on defense then we can not afford to take chances. I love the transition game, but most of it comes from steals from jumping the passing lanes. I am not seeing the guys gambling out there at all which is likely a coaching decision. It is very much like a defense in football ball-hawking when they are up by a comfortable margin. We do need to do a better job blocking out and everyone needs to put their body on their guy, but with this offensive style there is not going to be someone staying home under the rim to rebound. Our center on offense should be all over the court. For example, when Ohio had their run in the Tourney their starting center was 6'-8", Ivo Baltic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alFzurcDB0E and you will see a similar skill set in Luka Eller, https://www.hudl.com/video/3/6276902/5aa83507478e590ee078ac4d a recruit who Groce is pursuing as part of his 2020 class. I will now go and give myself 1,000 lashings for linking to anything Ohio related. Please forgive me. 

 

Edit: I should add that our approach on defense, both attacking passing lanes and hitting the boards will have a lot to do with the opponent. If we are playing a team that likes to run themselves then you have to choose your battles and it often means prioritizing getting our butts back on defense asap.

 

Small Angry Groce.jpg

Edited by Illini Zip

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54 minutes ago, Illini Zip said:

 

You guys are all hitting on the right questions. NWAkron points out that stiff defense is our only route to victory, especially on the road. Last game we produced 6 points total from the center position. The rest of the MAC can read box scores too and that just adds more stress on our guards. When the Zips are on the same page defensively they are actually quite good and their Kenpom ranking (#57) bares that out. But they do have mental lapses and it's very frustrating to watch the opponent drive the lane untouched. But not only do I see "Angry Groce" flare up, but LCJ is starting to take over this team and holding teammates accountable. They know what needs to be done, but they are lacking consistency.

 

If we are locking down so tightly on defense then we can not afford to take chances. I love the transition game, but most of it comes from steals from jumping the passing lanes. I am not seeing the guys gambling out there at all which is likely a coaching decision. It is very much like a defense in football ball-hawking when they are up by a comfortable margin. We do need to do a better job blocking out and everyone needs to put their body on their guy, but with this offensive style there is not going to be someone staying home under the rim to rebound. Our center on offense should be all over the court. For example, when Ohio had their run in the Tourney their starting center was 6'-8", Ivo Baltic, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alFzurcDB0E and you will see a similar skill set in Luka Eller, https://www.hudl.com/video/3/6276902/5aa83507478e590ee078ac4d a recruit who Groce is pursuing as part of his 2020 class. I will now go and give myself 1,000 lashings for linking to anything Ohio related. Please forgive me. 

 

Edit: I should add that our approach on defense, both attacking passing lanes and hitting the boards will have a lot to do with the opponent. If we are playing a team that likes to run themselves then you have to choose your battles and it often means prioritizing getting our butts back on defense asap.

 

Small Angry Groce.jpg

Illini Zip...are you actually Fulford?  Or Are you Dustin Ford?

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20 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

Illini Zip...are you actually Fulford?  Or Are you Dustin Ford?

 

Thanks for the compliment, but ahhh no. I admitted to being a bit of a homer long ago. I just want to see this offense take flight. Remember Ohio had mostly 2 star and NR recruits. Baltic was a 3 star and Offutt maybe a 4 star. I want to see Akron landing 4 and 5 star recruits to apply to this offense. I have a dream...

 

Edit: Cooper was a 3 star as well.

Edited by Illini Zip

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3 hours ago, Illini Zip said:

 

Thanks for the compliment, but ahhh no. I admitted to being a bit of a homer long ago. I just want to see this offense take flight. Remember Ohio had mostly 2 star and NR recruits. Baltic was a 3 star and Offutt maybe a 4 star. I want to see Akron landing 4 and 5 star recruits to apply to this offense. I have a dream...

 

Edit: Cooper was a 3 star as well.

So any day now LCJ will turn into DJ Cooper and Tyler Cheese will become Armon Bassett (minus the post college life as a career criminal)?

Edited by NWAkron

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10 minutes ago, NWAkron said:

So any day now LCJ will turn into DJ Cooper and Tyler Cheese will become Armon Bassett (minus the post college life as a career criminal)?

 

No, they'll turn into DB Cooper and Angela Bassett.

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