Rand Paul

[RootforRoo44]

I can't turn you arguing his policy points. Tea Baggers are the hard right of American Politics. Everytime I talk to one of you, guns or something racist comes out. Your fringe party is unelectable.

WRONG. If "Tea Baggers" (as you put it) were only the far right fringe then why are they impacting Democratic primaries? The fact is, moderate/conservative Democrats are sick of the filthy scumbag Left in this country and are just as much a part of the Tea Party movement as anyone. Liberals are naturally blind to anything but their beliefs so once someone stands up against them and proves them wrong they automatically label them "terrorists" or the "lunatic fringe".

Educated people know better.

btw, people like Ron Paul and Rand Paul are part of the solution to this mess our government is in.

Neither of them (or anyone like them) will be president in the near future but at least they are a step in the right direction.

[Dave in Green]

..... We are for liberty. .....

Who isn't for liberty? That's a lot like people who claim that they are patriotic and imply that anyone who is not a member of their party cannot possibly be patriotic.

I can honestly say that I have never met a single person in my life who has stated in my presence that they are not in favor of liberty or they do not love their country. They may differ on how best to achieve the most liberty for the most people, or they may lament some of the actions of their country as misguided. But there's nothing wrong with that. Diversity of political opinion is what this country is all about.

[meatwad]

He is going to get destroyed. This is only the 2nd day!

How much money are you willing to put on him losing? Be honest. I know w00t and Zip Watcher have had a friendly wager in the past. I think you might be able to get a few people to bite on this one.

[Z.I.P.]

He is going to get destroyed. This is only the 2nd day!

This quote is priceless. On Libertarianism being juvenile:

This is the belief system of people who have been the unwitting recipients of massive government backing for their entire lives. To borrow a phrase, they were born on third base, and think they hit a triple.

Link to article

Actually, this quote was stolen from ex-Texas governor, Ann Richards speaking about W. Bush (or was it his daddy?) at the Democratic Convention. She also famously said, "He was born with a silver foot in his mouth."

[cornbread]

He is going to get destroyed. This is only the 2nd day!

How much money are you willing to put on him losing? Be honest. I know w00t and Zip Watcher have had a friendly wager in the past. I think you might be able to get a few people to bite on this one.

We have a game on Nov 12th. Bet a round before the game? Case for the tailgate?

[Kangaroo Craig]

There's a storm coming in November for Obama, Reid, and Pelosi. I love that the libs in the media are dismissing the Tea Party movement because it is only going to make things worse for them. They have no idea what is in store for them. Liberalism always creates the exact opposite of it's stated intent.

[cornbread]

Liberalism always creates the exact opposite of it's stated intent.

What are you talking about?

Anyways, Rand Paul just cancelled on David Gregory and Meet the Press this weekend. He cited "exhaustion."

And check this out. He blames Obama for being un-American for criticizing BP over the oil spill. He can't say anything without putting his foot in his mouth.

[Dave in Green]

Only the 3rd guest in 62 years to cancel out on Meet the Press. Hey, if he's already got the Kentucky election wrapped up, there's no reason to risk doing more damage with any more interviews like the last few days. I suspect after a little media training that he'll return to the interview circuit, speak only with friendly interviewers tossing softballs, and say all the right things to ensure election with the electorate that's eligible to vote for him. I think that hardcore libertarian true believers may be disappointed with what comes out of Paul's mouth the rest of this election cycle. If he continued speaking what his heart of heart truly believes, it would only make it more difficult for him to win a general election, even in Kentucky.

I have no problem with Rand Paul representing Kentucky in the U.S. Senate if that's what the voters of Kentucky want. Having a libertarian or two in the Senate would bring a different perspective to that body. It would give the public an idea of what libertarians could bring to the national stage. Diversity is good.

[RootforRoo44]

There's a storm coming in November for Obama, Reid, and Pelosi. I love that the libs in the media are dismissing the Tea Party movement because it is only going to make things worse for them. They have no idea what is in store for them. Liberalism always creates the exact opposite of it's stated intent.

No doubt....Well maybe not for "Negative Nancy" Pelosi, she has immoral San Francisco all but locked up. Ya know it's a very scary place with all those loons running around.

[RootforRoo44]

Liberalism always creates the exact opposite of it's stated intent.

What are you talking about?

Anyways, Rand Paul just cancelled on David Gregory and Meet the Press this weekend. He cited "exhaustion."

And check this out. He blames Obama for being un-American for criticizing BP over the oil spill. He can't say anything without putting his foot in his mouth.

Funny how Obama continues to bash BP and point fingers at people in the federal government blaming them for this oil leak even while saying "I will not tolerate more finger-pointing or irresponsibility..."

hmmm this all coming from the guy who was the top recipient of BP-related donations during the 2008 election cycle when he collected $71,000.

I guess he means no finger pointing if it's at him.

We need more people like Rand Paul calling out that scumbag in the White House.

[GP1]

Only the 3rd guest in 62 years to cancel out on Meet the Press. Hey, if he's already got the Kentucky election wrapped up, there's no reason to risk doing more damage with any more interviews like the last few days.

I agree. He could play defense the rest of the way and win.

A huge mistake Republicans make is playing the game the left wants to play. Democrats have been smart in dealing with Republicans in past two years. What they do is float out an idea they would never act upon and then sit back while Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh and the Sarah Palins of the world run around and spout off insanely about the idea. Let's face it, only one of those three graduated from anything more than high school. The Republicans need to focus on issues that matter to people today and when they are asked about an issue from 40 years ago, they should say it does not matter in 2010 and spin the questions to issues facing Americans today.

Getting back to the Libertarian/Republican issue. I wish some of you would actually read up on the Libertarian Party. The LP is not an extreme version of Republicanism. Extreme Republicanism is Creationism, anti-abortion, prayer in schools, endless war in the middle east (although that seems to be the Obama policy as well), etc. The extreme base of the Republican party has actually lost its mind and is focused on issues that really don't help American today.

The LP is about individuals having as much decision power over their own life as possible without government interference. The LP is about states deciding their future and not the federal government. LP is about you deciding your own future on your own. It is pro choice, it is anit-war in the middle east, it is about bringing troops home from places such as Germany (let the Huns defend themselves for crying out lout) and Japan...all of these ideas fall within the Democratic Party. Granted, there are probably more issues siding with Republicans, but you get the point.

[cornbread]

Only the 3rd guest in 62 years to cancel out on Meet the Press. Hey, if he's already got the Kentucky election wrapped up, there's no reason to risk doing more damage with any more interviews like the last few days.

I agree. He could play defense the rest of the way and win.

A huge mistake Republicans make is playing the game the left wants to play. Democrats have been smart in dealing with Republicans in past two years. What they do is float out an idea they would never act upon and then sit back while Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh and the Sarah Palins of the world run around and spout off insanely about the idea. Let's face it, only one of those three graduated from anything more than high school. The Republicans need to focus on issues that matter to people today and when they are asked about an issue from 40 years ago, they should say it does not matter in 2010 and spin the questions to issues facing Americans today.

You are right.

To win, he should not do any more combative style interviews, and stick to Fox news and talk radio.

Getting back to the Libertarian/Republican issue. I wish some of you would actually read up on the Libertarian Party. The LP is not an extreme version of Republicanism. Extreme Republicanism is Creationism, anti-abortion, prayer in schools, endless war in the middle east (although that seems to be the Obama policy as well), etc. The extreme base of the Republican party has actually lost its mind and is focused on issues that really don't help American today.

The LP is about individuals having as much decision power over their own life as possible without government interference. The LP is about states deciding their future and not the federal government. LP is about you deciding your own future on your own. It is pro choice, it is anit-war in the middle east, it is about bringing troops home from places such as Germany (let the Huns defend themselves for crying out lout) and Japan...all of these ideas fall within the Democratic Party. Granted, there are probably more issues siding with Republicans, but you get the point

I agree here too. I acknowledge the difference between the LP and Repubs. As you can see from my political compass score, I agree with many of the ideals behind the LP. KNowing about the differences between the parties, I still know that the republicans offer a more comprehensive governing agenda than anything the LP could cobble together.

In my perfect world, the republicans would drop the morality act, dump the religious right, and stick to their ideals concerning limited government and maximized personal freedoms. That party would be competing for my vote anytime.

If the LP/ tea party helps transition the republicans into that kind of party, then I am all for it. But i do not see it happening because the moral majority crowd is such a reliable voting bloc everytime the repubs throw them a bone.

[Dave in Green]

..... The Republicans need to focus on issues that matter to people today and when they are asked about an issue from 40 years ago, they should say it does not matter in 2010 and spin the questions to issues facing Americans today. .....

A few of them already tried that strategy earlier this week, and got ripped for belittling the concept of civil rights. Besides, Republicans constantly bring up the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Boston Tea Party, and other issues more than 200 years old. So saying that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 doesn't matter defies logic. Outside of Fox, few journalists are going to let them get away with that inconsistency.

[GP1]

..... The Republicans need to focus on issues that matter to people today and when they are asked about an issue from 40 years ago, they should say it does not matter in 2010 and spin the questions to issues facing Americans today. .....

Besides, Republicans constantly bring up the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Boston Tea Party, and other issues more than 200 years old. So saying that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 doesn't matter defies logic.

My goodness, where to start? Do you understand there is a difference between the Constitution/Bill of Rights/Amendments and the Boston Tea Party? Just to be clear, the Boston Tea Party was a episode of revolt by the colonists. The Constitution and Bill of Rights establish the legal framework for the country. The laws we establish today are required to be in compliance with the Constitution and Bill of Rights. They are as important today as they were 200+ years ago.

The problem is, citizens either don't know or don't understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Dave's post is a perfect example of probably the majority in this country who really don't understand the framework of our government.

The Republicans and Democrats use lawyers and the courts to manipulate the Consitution and Bill of Rights. Their use of the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment is a perfect example of how they manipulate the Constitution. Republicans used the 14th Amendment in the 2000 election to solidify their case. The Democrats use is to make up protections for freak fringe groups instead of making certain all groups are treated equally. The Libertarian Party is the only party that discusses equal protection as everyone being equal.

If the media wants to try to run people with different ideas out of political races (they will fail in Kentucky), then we are going to be stuck with more of the same. What we have now isn't working and a change is needed. Obama isn't change, he is an acceleration of the ongoing disaster. Republicans and Democrats are more than willing to participate in the disaster as well. We are all screwed unless Libertarian thinking can catch hold.

[GP1]

few journalists are going to let them get away with that inconsistency.

It's because the majority of journalists are leftists and they don't want to focus on the real issues facing the country.

[Dave in Green]

..... The Republicans need to focus on issues that matter to people today and when they are asked about an issue from 40 years ago, they should say it does not matter in 2010 and spin the questions to issues facing Americans today. .....

Besides, Republicans constantly bring up the Constitution, Bill of Rights, Boston Tea Party, and other issues more than 200 years old. So saying that the Civil Rights Act of 1964 doesn't matter defies logic.

My goodness, where to start? Do you understand there is a difference between the Constitution/Bill of Rights/Amendments and the Boston Tea Party? Just to be clear, the Boston Tea Party was a episode of revolt by the colonists. The Constitution and Bill of Rights establish the legal framework for the country. The laws we establish today are required to be in compliance with the Constitution and Bill of Rights. They are as important today as they were 200+ years ago.

The problem is, citizens either don't know or don't understand the Constitution and Bill of Rights. Dave's post is a perfect example of probably the majority in this country who really don't understand the framework of our government.

The Republicans and Democrats use lawyers and the courts to manipulate the Consitution and Bill of Rights. Their use of the Equal Protection Clause in the 14th Amendment is a perfect example of how they manipulate the Constitution. Republicans used the 14th Amendment in the 2000 election to solidify their case. The Democrats use is to make up protections for freak fringe groups instead of making certain all groups are treated equally. The Libertarian Party is the only party that discusses equal protection as everyone being equal.

If the media wants to try to run people with different ideas out of political races (they will fail in Kentucky), then we are going to be stuck with more of the same. What we have now isn't working and a change is needed. Obama isn't change, he is an acceleration of the ongoing disaster. Republicans and Democrats are more than willing to participate in the disaster as well. We are all screwed unless Libertarian thinking can catch hold.

Where to start? Based on your odd misinterpretation of my comments, I suggest a good starting point would be to slow down your reading speed and focus more on comprehension.

[RootforRoo44]

few journalists are going to let them get away with that inconsistency.

It's because the majority of journalists are leftists and they don't want to focus on the real issues facing the country.

Majority?....more like vast majority (99.99%)

[Zip Watcher]

Let's face it, only one of those three graduated from anything more than high school.

Not the first time I've seen that observation, but it's astounding none the less.

The LP is not an extreme version of Republicanism.

Perhaps truer words have never been typed by the Great GP1 @ ZN.O

The LP is about individuals having as much decision power over their own life as possible without government interference. The LP is about states deciding their future and not the federal government. LP is about you deciding your own future on your own. It is pro choice, .... {snip}

This illustrates one of the reasons that the LP unfortunately can't and won't be able to leverage even the most toxic political climate in decades to become a relevant force in American (or State) governance. There's too many LP's out there. They can't really come to common ground easily to present a united front to the nation of independent voters yearning for an alternative option.

Another observation would be that a strict Libertarian interpretation would be anti-abortion. And many (I'd lay a Lincoln on about 45% or more .. along the lines of the rest of the population) are anti-abortion.

One tenet of Libertarianism is the Declaration of Independence: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Non-aggression is another. Abortion *could* be described as a violation of both.

The sooner the LP takes an inclusive approach to that issue, accepts that America is divided on the topic, and states and platforms that it's a *states rights* issue .. the sooner they'll be able to move into the mainstream.

I think it would be fascinating for a presidential (or Senate or gubernatorial for that matter) to take a copy of the Declaration and the Constitution to a debate. You know those little paperback jobs you can get anywhere, and maybe for free online? Every question asked can be answered using those documents. It would be very interesting to see a candidate defer question after question to Ammendments 9 & 10 over and over in a debate. Might get people to actually consider what those were about.

It will be a loss for the US if the LP can't fight its way into the equation in some small way over the next 4-6 years. But when you consider the LP's true values of individual liberty and freedom, it's almost a contradiction in beliefs to be a true Libertarian and hold office to govern the people.

Go Zips.

[GP1]

One tenet of Libertarianism is the Declaration of Independence: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Non-aggression is another. Abortion *could* be described as a violation of both.

The sooner the LP takes an inclusive approach to that issue, accepts that America is divided on the topic, and states and platforms that it's a *states rights* issue .. the sooner they'll be able to move into the mainstream.

The main tenets of the LP are the Constitution and Bill of Rights. These documents create a framework for government and restrictions on the government against personal liberty. People can see abortion anyway they want, but the government should not intrude on the personal liberty of anyone, including a woman (even thought this country has been going downhill since we let ladies out of the kitchen and into the voting booth).

The discussion of abortion is no different than a discussion of the Civil Rights act in 2010. More important issues are unemployment, national debt, government burden on small businesses. Those are the issues facing America today.

[cornbread]

One tenet of Libertarianism is the Declaration of Independence: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. Non-aggression is another. Abortion *could* be described as a violation of both.

The sooner the LP takes an inclusive approach to that issue, accepts that America is divided on the topic, and states and platforms that it's a *states rights* issue .. the sooner they'll be able to move into the mainstream.

The main tenets of the LP are the Constitution and Bill of Rights. These documents create a framework for government and restrictions on the government against personal liberty. People can see abortion anyway they want, but the government should not intrude on the personal liberty of anyone, including a woman (even thought this country has been going downhill since we let ladies out of the kitchen and into the voting booth).

The discussion of abortion is no different than a discussion of the Civil Rights act in 2010. More important issues are unemployment, national debt, government burden on small businesses. Those are the issues facing America today.

Abortion is always an issue because of the reliability of the religious right. People courting their vote have to come down strongly against abortion. This made me think of something I did in a political sim game to get re-elected.

The religious right hated me. By extension, those who had a medium to strong link to the religious right disliked me alot. I allowed prayer in school in order to stop an abortion ban and keep teaching evolution.

Democracy 2(wikipedia link and purchase link)

If you are a policy wonk and like getting into this stuff, please take this game into consideration.

It does a great job illustrating how you cobble together a coalition of voters. Customizable also with different preset scenarios. So you Teabaggers out there can set up a deeply liberal scenario where your politics win out in the end. At least try the demo, full game is only $20.

[cornbread]

Rasmussen ran a 500 person poll in KY the night that Rand Paul appeared on Rachel Maddow. These are the numbers you can use to show if there is any change from the media blitz that followed.

Many disapprove of Obama and dislike the healthcare legislation at a higher rate nationally than other states: 63% and 65% respectively.

The current numbers are Rand Paul 59% and Jack Conway 34%. That is 25% points.

I think I will walk back my declaration of imminent Democratic Party domination in the state, but I do think it is all down hill from here for Paul. Can he hold on until November, is the question. This reporter that covers politics in KY thinks that is the case.

Democrats are going to run on things they have done. Namely healthcare. No matter what side of the argument you fall on, they have something to crow about. It is going to turn some numbers. Here are provisions going into effect this year.

Jack Conway is going to use Rand's inexperience against him. FIM= Foot in Mouth. The "liberal" media now has the ammo. Can they nail him as a flip-flopper?

• Civil Rights FIM
  
• BP FIM
  
• NPR FIM
  
• Women's rights FIM (Dr. Paul wouldn't even permit exceptions in the case of rape or incest. He says the mother and the unborn zygote have equal rights.)(
  

It is going to be close. If the democrats can't make this race come down to the wire, they are idiots.

[Dave in Green]

True believers of all political persuasions are pre-programmed to vote for the candidates of the parties that best represent their gut beliefs. Only rarely do they cross over to vote for an exceptionally appealing candidate of a different political persuasion, or against an especially unappealing candidate of their own party. The base percentage of true believer voters can be fairly reliably predicted in various geographical areas based on historical election results.

The core of conservative support, including both the republican and libertarian persuasions, has largely gravitated to the old confederacy. While Kentucky was formally a neutral border state during the Civil War, there were areas of Kentucky that sided with the confederacy. So there is some commonality with the core confederate states in modern politics.

Offsetting that is the split among conservative-minded people between the principles that the republicans and libertarians represent. While they have some things in common, in other areas, these two parties are diametrically opposed. So tough choices have to be made, which means that some will jump parties, and some will just stay home and not bother to vote between what they see as two flawed choices.

As always, uncommitted independents will have an influence on the outcome. But it depends on how many Kentuckians haven't dedicated their lives to one party or another, and how many of those who are committed to a party are motivated to vote for their own party's candidate or against the other. A candidate from one party who is considered too radical by a large number of voters could have problems against a candidate from the opposing party who is moderate enough not to engender outright hate from voters of the opposite party.

I'd say that regardless of what the polls show today, this is a fluid situation that could go either way come election day depending on many variables including those mentioned above.

[Dave in Green]

Ruh roh. The official Libertarian Party of Kentucky now says that Rand Paul is not one of them. Apparently they believe he went from a Libertarian candidate to a Tea Party candidate to a mainstream Republican candidate since he began his campaign.

What's the old saying about being able to please some of the people some of the time .....

Libertarian Party of Kentucky Link

[cornbread]

Ruh roh. The official Libertarian Party of Kentucky now says that Rand Paul is not one of them. Apparently they believe he went from a Libertarian candidate to a Tea Party candidate to a mainstream Republican candidate since he began his campaign.

What's the old saying about being able to please some of the people some of the time .....

Libertarian Party of Kentucky Link

This is good for Rand. Makes him seem less libertarian/ crazy.

[cornbread]

Update: Paul 49% Conway 41%

This is a drop from a 25% lead to an 8% point lead. Rand has been quiet. If I were Conway, i would try to goad him into talking, and get the national media frenzied up again. The anti-establishment fervor will not be a part of this race because they are both new to the seat.