Is a conference shake-up happening sooner than later?

[GP1]

That's the part I don't get either GP1.All the talk of the big east sounds exciting, but if the MAC is so bad, why aren't we owning it?

Great question. We don't own it, because it takes more than new facilities to field a wide range of successful sports programs, let alone one or two. Success through facilities is a myth told to sports fans to get them to believe that a wide range of problems can be solved by building a structure(s) of some type.I just bought Wake Forest tickets for next year. They have a horrible stadium away from campus that only seats 31,000 + 5,000 on a little hill and no indoor practice facility; yet somehow they went to a BCS game two years ago and another bowl game last year. For at least two more years, they will go to bowl games. I've actually learned a lot about how a historically below average/really bad football team can become really good in a short period. I see what Akron could be in them, but on a smaller scale. In order to see it though, you have to look past the myth. It takes more than a new stadium and unfortunately, it will take more than a new coach going into the new stadium.

[Zip Watcher]

The infusion of resources (cash) gained from a better conference bowl & TV situation can be a contributor to the rise. It won't solve all problems (see Duke, Indiana), but as a component of a broad well thought out plan for improvement, the resources gained from a move up can directly impact the competition on the field.Also, recruiting will immediately see an impact. The day our coaches are knocking on doors with a schedule including Pitt, WVU .. etc .. we're immediately in a world where JD is getting mostly 3 star recruits and some 4, rather than mostly 2, some three and the rare 4 star guy.I disagree with the notion that you need to be dominant on one level before moving to the next. I think you do have to have adequate facilities and support structures in place to make a move. This means academic support, training and game facilities, and the like. Hoops arena is an area where we fall a bit short. But we're already dealing with 85 FB players .. that doesn't change with a vertical move like this.Hoops is closer than many realize to being competitive on that level. And a change in conferences will only help the situation. Recruiting a guy like Zeke would be the norm, not the exception. There would probably be a 2 year wait for the move to take place, in which KD & JD would have 2 classes of recruits that could be BCS level. They wouldn't be starting from a standstill .. the process could be followed.This isn't English Premier League Foo(u)tball .. moving up is a decision based on strategy, planning and execution. We don't need to have 5 straight MAC titles in all sports to consider a move upstream in competition. Marshall dominated the MAC in football .. and due to several factors, they're a doormat in C-USA. So this isn't a sure fire thing either way. A dominant team is not guaranteed to perform well with an upgrade, and a doormat is not guaranteed to remain so. It's all in the leadership, commitment and execution.UConn is a good example here. Now the school is a state flagship, so I'm well aware of underlying institutional differences, but just for arguments sake: They were a doormat for the first 8-9 years of the Big East. A doormat. They catch lightning and hire a good coach in 86 or 87 .. make a miracle shot in 89 or 90 .. get a couple of big recruits in Marshall and Allen, and now they're one of the elite major hoops teams. But they WERE a doormat .. for a long time. Their football team recently transitioned from I-AA to I-A .. a transition that involves more than jumping between conferences. In the early 90's, they never even smelled the I-AA playoffs. They weren't Marshall or YSU rolling over the competition in the Yankee conference .. they were a mediocre I-AA team that couldn't draw flies to it's 15K seat bleacher stadium. That was true less than 10 years ago.Programs are not locked into their current situation by anything other than small minded thinking and "doing things the way we do them around here." Sometimes we need to look beyond the current situation and see the alternatives.Things can be made to happen. It takes vision, execution, and sometimes .. some balls to dream big and make the dream a reality.Go Zips! Go Mack! Go Trevor.

[GP1]

UConn is a good example here. Now the school is a state flagship, so I'm well aware of underlying institutional differences, but just for arguments sake: They were a doormat for the first 8-9 years of the Big East. A doormat. They catch lightning and hire a good coach in 86 or 87 .. make a miracle shot in 89 or 90 .. get a couple of big recruits in Marshall and Allen, and now they're one of the elite major hoops teams. But they WERE a doormat .. for a long time. Their football team recently transitioned from I-AA to I-A .. a transition that involves more than jumping between conferences. In the early 90's, they never even smelled the I-AA playoffs. They weren't Marshall or YSU rolling over the competition in the Yankee conference .. they were a mediocre I-AA team that couldn't draw flies to it's 15K seat bleacher stadium. That was true less than 10 years ago.

I agree. As long as we disregard the fact they are Connecticut's flagship school and the underlying institutional differences, they are a good example. However, if we include the fact they are Connecticut's flagship school and the underlying institutioinal differences, they are a poor example.

[Zip Watcher]

From a size of the school perspective, they're similar. UConn isn't a huge school .. it's closer in size to a MAC school than a Big 10 school (Storrs). CT's a small state too. But being one of the few DI schools in the state .. there was little or NO interested in UC football before they made the jump. They weren't beating everyone in sight, and turning fans away at the ticket window. In a lot of ways .. the athletic departments were similar. Greer Fieldhouse wasn't much different from the JAR or Fitzgerald at Pitt. There's more parallels than one might think.Catching lightning with Lew Perkins (AD), Calhoun and Auriemma had more to do with the leap forward than did the setting.

[zippyrifle32]

i heard we're making the move to the pac-10

[ZachTheZip]

All the talk so far has been about joining a conference in all sports. I think the Big East may be looking for four football-only members, which would allow it to keep its current structure in basketball. If that happens, you might see Temple rejoin them and possibly a few schools from C-USA and the MAC. I think that we need to build a healthy rivalry with Temple in both football and basketball. If they move, it gives us a bit more leverage for moving up as well.

[a-zip]

Nobody answered the question I asked earlier, perhaps it is stupid but I am curious for an unbiased answer...........

If you ranked the MAC schools - honestly, which one do you think would be the most desirable today(unbiased).

[UA1987]

I have never felt this program has been welcome in the MAC. I will never forget Miami beating us 50-0 two years in row (at halftime) in the mid-1990's and then walking off the field without shaking our hands after the game. If you are from Miami... you're a punk in my book. Some of this MAC attitude came out of Faust's comments that we should beat the MAC regularly, when we were an Independent. Faust wanted us to develop a program like Pitt, but Dennison, our AD at the time, had other ideas.From my point of view, I'd like to jump to Conference USA, if it would work out financially. One thing this new AD should consider, however: look at the past... Wisconsin homered us in 2003, why would you ever schedule them again. Can you hear our chant at this year's game? Hendry, Hendry, Hendry... For those of you who don't know, our tailback, Hendry, went in for the apparent go-head score from the 1 foot line on fourth and goal with 6 minutes to go, but we were not given the TD. Never would I have scheduled a game in Camp Ripoff again. This AD has alot to prove and I have not seen any of it.

[johnnyzip84]

Nobody answered the question I asked earlier, perhaps it is stupid but I am curious for an unbiased answer...........

If you ranked the MAC schools - honestly, which one do you think would be the most desirable today(unbiased).

Actually I did. I said that it was Toledo. BUT, I added that the things happening at UA could make a differece here soon. But as of RIGHT NOW I think it's Toledo.

[roodog97]

Although watching opponents like Eastern Michigan and Buffalo don't light any fireworks in my pants, I won't be anymore excited about watching Rice, SMU, Tulane, etc. Playing in state opponents are more compelling to me. IMO, C-USA teams don't get anymore respect than MAC teams, yet its teams are probably better on average (at least in football). Tulsa has a pretty good football program though I bet the average college football fan would not be aware of it. Wasn't Memphis 5th in its conference for the MCB, yet dominated the Zips physically. Defeating C-USA opponents won't get us much respect, and losing to them will only hurt the program's reputation. Just not much upside.

[Ryno aka Menace]

If I had to rank the MAC teams that would be appealing to another conference I would say1.Toledo2.Miami3.Central4. AkronBased on history of winning and potential And for those of you jumping on Marshall saying it hasn't worked out for them I beg to differ, 1 they have only been in the conference for 3 years give them some time. 2. last year they were 3-9 and easily could have been 7-5 if you look at the schedule, 3. In 2006 they were 5-7 we were 5-7 but we all agree C-USA is a better conference. (to back that statement look at the number of bowl participants last year from the MAC and C-USA)To support the notion of jumping conference. Look at UConn, South Florida, Central Florida, all 3 jumped to the Big East with no prior indications that they would "compete" at the level they are. The Big East is a BCS conference, going to C-USA is to me a side step, it is a step up but a small one. Someone mentioned earlier no one will get excited to see us play UTEP, Rice, or Tulane.WHO you play effects recruiting, the number of fans that show up, and TV coverage. Some people on message boards were ripping ECU for whoring themselves out to get into the big east. But I see nothing but upside. Temple gets kicked out of the Big East but damn near wins our conference the first year in? That's disgraceful.Minnesota isn't competitive in the Big Ten but I saw them on TV more than the zips!!

[zippyrifle32]

This AD has alot to prove and I have not seen any of it.

maybe you should look a little closer

[UA1987]

'maybe you should look a little closer - ZR quote on the AD'This AD seems to be using the University as a stepping stone, which would be ok if he would actually do something great here first. He seems to be taking credit for the new football facility, but this was in place prior to his arrival. His scheduling has been poor in football and basketball and our sports promotions have gone downhill since his arrival, so what's to like?I'll give him some rope, but so far he's got much more to prove.

[zippyrifle32]

'maybe you should look a little closer - ZR quote on the AD'This AD seems to be using the University as a stepping stone, which would be ok if he would actually do something great here first. He seems to be taking credit for the new football facility, but this was in place prior to his arrival. His scheduling has been poor in football and basketball and our sports promotions have gone downhill since his arrival, so what's to like?I'll give him some rope, but so far he's got much more to prove.

what has mack done to make you think he's using the university as a stepping stone?i think you're giving too much credit to mike thomas. if everything with the stadium was set in place before he left, why didn't we break ground under him? fund raising has gone up i believe, overall the department is growing (adding women's golf), as an athlete i know that there has been some reform in the rules such as a stricter class attendance policy and changes in academic support, and then there's that whole isp deal. that's just off the top of my head. maybe someone else can clarify: although the ad helps with the football schedule, i thought the bball coaches do their own.

[LosAngelesZipFan]

I still don't even remotely buy that C-USA is anything other than an upgrade to the MAC-- the frickin NCAA runner up came from C-USA. They have consistently had teams make deep runs in the tourney and for much of its history received more than one bid. They have more and better bowls in FB and more TV time. Most importantly, the reason we are having this discussion in the first place is because the Big East might again raid C-USA as they did a few years ago-- and notably, the BE has not expressed much/any interest in raiding the MAC. Add it all up and C-USA is simply a better respected conference with a consistently higher level of competition.The question is really where we aspire to be. We are clearly not ready to compete at a BE level today, and given fan support and other realities, we are not currently an attractive candidate for BE membership. But if the answer to the question is that we would like to be in the consideration set for the BE or something similar, then the next question is what conference platform best puts us in position to achieve that at some point. The answer to me is undeniably clear cut: C-USA is a far better platform to put us in position to something BE-like. So, should we aspire to be a peer-institution to Louisville, Pitt, Cincy, 'cuse, Memphis? Could we get there? Should we try?I think if you asked Dr. Proenza, the answer would be one of his favorite quotes: "DREAM! DARE! DO!" Hells yeah we can and we should! The city, state, and everyone else should be supporting and cheering us on towards that goal-- it would make a great economic and social development engine even greater. A quick look at the facts (snapshot below) would lead one to conclude that there is no reason why Akron couldn't be a peer with those schools. In fact, our metro area (which I am defining as Northeast Ohio) is by far and a way the largest market (even a more restricted definition of our metro yields a population of 3 million). I have added Toledo to this-- they certainly warrant consideration and present at least as attractive a package as us given their athletic success, which is all the more reason for us to aggressively pursue a conference change. [And for grins, I also added an Akron + Can't line just to show that potential impact of that course--I believe it would make us instantly attractive to the Big East just based on size and opportunity to own the market.]Here is a quick fact snap shot: City Pop Metro Pop Enrollment EndowmentLouisville 250K 1.200M 21K 800KPitt 312K 2.800M 27K 2.250BSyracuse 147K 730K 19K 1.100BCincinnati 332K 2.100M 36K 1.200BMemphis 670K 1.200M 15K 183KAkron 217K 4.500M 24K 250K[Akron+ Can't] 55K 340KToledo 298K 653K 19K 173K

[zipboy]

Some great discussions, a few thoughts.1. I became convinced the MAC was not the right long term solution 2 years ago after bball was snubbed from the NIT. The quality of play especially in football has gone down. Let's say 2 members get invited to CUSA and they end up being Toledo and Ohio or Miami. At that point half of the remaining league can't even draw 1500 per game for bball. 2. After the Fingerhut scare came out this year, I also became convinced that Akron needs to somehow elevate itself from the rest of the state schools or in 5 years, we may be looking at some merger with CSU again. Does bigger conference affiliation lead to more students, more money, more prestige? I would have to think so. 3. If CUSA calls, do you go? 2 years ago I would have said no now I am not so sure. As someone said above, the Big East is where I hope that we end up someday. From a geographical, size of city/school, research instituion perspective, it would be good for Northeast Ohio and good for us. Whatever makes that happen is the route I would go and I trust Mack to make the right choices.4. One scenario abovve which would be ideal is the Big East only wants 4 additional members for football. In an ideal world at this point, moving to the A10 in everything else and the Big East in football would be perfect. Men's bball is about to do something special and I hope that we end up following the UC blueprint, have bball get good and bring the other programs along. You need both football and bball for the Big East, but bball is closer now. The Big East in bball would slow this down. The A10 is a just a level below but a 2-3 bid league. We played 3 of their top teams, winning at home and losing 2 on the road at the end. 22-8 in the A10 vs 25-5 in the MAC gets us an at large bid vs sweating out the NIT. We can win now in the A10 and fit geographically5. GP1 had a great comment in the past - MAC schools are always building for the future. Evidence of that and how to change it is the stadium. Football was built of out of necessity. Bball would be built out of an expectation to grow. The JAR is perfectly fine for the MAC but not for a better conference. A 10K seat arena downtown or on campus or wherever, you are a winning program in a better conference, and you are drawing 5-6K per night. I read the average school allocated 5% of their budget to athletics and Akron is just under 4.5%. Move it to 5% and fund this area better. That would be a 10% increase in the athletic budget.6. Nonreveune sports - men's soocer and track and CC would all be solid now in the Big East. That is 7 sports, half of the non revenue sports.7. I don't think we need to dominate the MAC move up. We need to draw 20-25K in football for 3 years, do something about bball arena and you put your self in shape to be looked at.8. 5 years ago, we had just gotten off disappointing seasons in football and bball, Lee and Dan were fired, endless talk of the new stadium was going on but nothing was concrete. Since then, the fieldhouse finalized, football stadium will be done next year, Fear the Roo campaign was a big success, thank goodness for KD, we went to a bowl game, Mitchell and Engle continue to dominate in their sports, student growth is happening, and there is talk of a new bball arena. In the last 5 years we have put ourselves in an immeasurably better place to talk about this stuff. We need to continue to do the same.

[ZippyRulz]

Although watching opponents like Eastern Michigan and Buffalo don't light any fireworks in my pants, I won't be anymore excited about watching Rice, SMU, Tulane, etc. Playing in state opponents are more compelling to me. IMO, C-USA teams don't get anymore respect than MAC teams, yet its teams are probably better on average (at least in football). Tulsa has a pretty good football program though I bet the average college football fan would not be aware of it. Wasn't Memphis 5th in its conference for the MCB, yet dominated the Zips physically. Defeating C-USA opponents won't get us much respect, and losing to them will only hurt the program's reputation. Just not much upside.

CUSA has a much more southern profile. They may be more apt to go for MTSU (TN/Nashville market) and FAU (Boca Raton/Ft. Lauderdale). The CUSA schools are bigger names than the MAC schools and its profile is still higher because of recent history and former members. Going to CUSA would get Akron more known outside the midwest and we could still play some instate schools OOC. I wouldn't really miss the michigans/niu/ball/buffalo 'rivalries'. Travel would be a witch though; not an easy bus ride down to the Gulf Coast. Conference USA Conf All East UCF 7-1 10-4 East Carolina 6-2 8-5 Memphis 6-2 7-6 Southern Miss 5-3 7-6 Marshall 3-5 3-9 UAB 1-7 2-10 West Tulsa 6-2 10-4 Houston 6-2 8-5 Tulane 3-5 4-8 Rice 3-5 3-9 UTEP 2-6 4-8 Southern Methodist 0-8 1-11

[UA1987]

'adding women's golf - quote on legacy of our current AD by Zippyrifle32 on post 39'Maybe this will be this AD's legacy - more women's sports expansion.The road to ground breaking has been a long time coming due to architectural work and eminent domain court negotiations. Let's read the papers now and then and turn off the Kardashians.In case you didn't know, we just had 5 football scholarships yanked due to poor student athlete performance (your strict academic requirements are a result of this failure). This should never have happened. When you were a toddler we had a football coach try the same type of recruiting in the 1990's. We should have leadership that remembers the past or you are destined to repeat it (sound familiar - history class if not).Fundraising - Proenza has been outstanding. Let's see what this AD does for this University before he moves to his next stop (or maybe he stays cause nobody wants him). I hope we get more than women's golf.

[zippyrifle32]

'adding women's golf - quote on legacy of our current AD by Zippyrifle32 on post 39'Maybe this will be this AD's legacy - more women's sports expansion.The road to ground breaking has been a long time coming due to architectural work and eminent domain court negotiations. Let's read the papers now and then and turn off the Kardashians.In case you didn't know, we just had 5 football scholarships yanked due to poor student athlete performance (your strict academic requirements are a result of this failure). This should never have happened. When you were a toddler we had a football coach try the same type of recruiting in the 1990's. We should have leadership that remembers the past or you are destined to repeat it (sound familiar - history class if not).Fundraising - Proenza has been outstanding. Let's see what this AD does for this University before he moves to his next stop (or maybe he stays cause nobody wants him). I hope we get more than women's golf.

obviously you aren't aware of what is going on in the athletic department. like i said before, maybe you should take a closer look

[UA1987]

'like i said before, maybe you should take a closer look - Quote - Zippyrifle32'Welcome to my ignore list.

[zippyrifle32]

'like i said before, maybe you should take a closer look - Quote - Zippyrifle32'Welcome to my ignore list.

seems like you tend to ignore things that challenge your point of view. i'll make myself right at home

[gozips19]

something to keep in mind when bigger conferences are looking to add teams. tradition doesn't always play a factor as some would think. usf and ucf are perfect examples of this. conferences will look at facilities, growth potential, and possible tv market. akron will have the nicest stadium in the conference and the city has made it clear it wants to build an arena downtown for basketball. enrollment is up and the university has a president dedicated to into a powerhouse for northern ohio. ut and akron really are the two that can make the move at this point. c-usa fits the demographics (campus wise) and would elevate the university. rifle i do agree with you that mack has done a very good job in the fundraising department. his legacy will be if he can get the university in position to upgrade in conference affiliation.

[ZachTheZip]

Bringing this thread back to the top on some new info: http://blog.mlive.com/fireupchips/2008/05/...to_14_team.html

Will the MAC expand to 14 teams?Posted by Steven Rosso May 28, 2008 19:46PMThere is a real possibility of the MAC moving to 14 teams in the very near future. According to college basketball insider Andy Katz of ESPN, the MAC is in discussions to bring in Western Kentucky and Temple for all sports. For one thing, this would create a huge conference, one of the biggest in basketball and the biggest in football. This would definitely be nice for football, as having a 13 team conference makes divisions and scheduling a huge problem. Both Western Kentucky and Temple are getting stronger in football, and are both pretty good in basketball already. This would seem to be a winning situation for the MAC.May 28, ESPN.com The MAC meetings are going on in Chicago, and according to a coach in attendance, there was more talk about expanding the league to 14 teams with adding Temple (Atlantic 10 for all sports but football) and Western Kentucky (Sun Belt) as full members. Temple plays a MAC schedule in football and has added MAC nonconference games for basketball. This kind of decision would be made for football, but if they did ever join the league in hoops, it would make this league even tougher and potentially put it in position to earn multiple bids (which hasn't happened since 1999).

[Zip Watcher]

I'm not sure if that goes down .. didn't WKU already sign some deal to be I-A as a full member of the Sun Belt?I'd rather join WKU in C-USA as the replacements for ECU & Memphis.If Temple & WKU actually join the MAC, the decision gets a little more difficult.Hoops vs: UAB, Tulsa, UTEP, Houston, Tulaneor Hoops vs: WKU, Temple, Miami, Ball St.That's a toughie, especially since FB will drive the decision anyway.

[Ryno aka Menace]

For those of you who think Marshall going to Conference USA was a bad move..http://herdzone.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/s.../053008aaa.htmlMen's Basketball Reports 14th Largest Average Attendance Increase in Nation Nearly 1,500 More Fans Per Game in Donnie Jones' First Season at Marshall Marshall averaged nearly 1,500 more fans per game last season than in 2006-07. May 30, 2008HUNTINGTON, W.Va. - The Marshall University men's basketball program recorded the 14th largest average attendance increase from the previous year in the nation, according to the NCAA, with 1,498 more Thundering Herd fans at the Cam Henderson Center per game in 2007-08.Marshall drew an average crowd of 5,042 at its 17 home games in 2007-08, its largest in seven seasons and nearly 1,500 more per game than in 2006-07 (3,544).Marshall, which posted its first winning season since 2000-01, saw 85,710 fans walk through the Henderson Center turnstiles in head coach Donnie Jones' first season with the Herd in 2007-08. The upsurge of 1,498 more fans per game is the largest increase from the previous season at MU since former Herd coach Billy Donovan's first season at Marshall in 1994-95 (2,449).The Herd went 13-4 at home last season and saw game crowds top 5,000-plus seven times, including a sellout versus eventual national finalist Memphis.Marshall's per game attendance increase is the third best in Conference USA behind Memphis (2,221 - 4th) and UCF (2,195 - 5th). Southern California (2,670) reported the largest increase in the country and is one of 33 schools with a growth of more than 1,000 per game. SMU (1,106 - 28th) is the fourth C-USA institution on the list.