The Butler Did It...

[Captain Kangaroo]

The Gonzaga…errr...Butler of the East

[Dr Z]

Good article.I'm not sure I understand this:

Dambrot won't give back his team's 2009 NCAA bid where they lost a first round game to Gonzaga. But it was not a win-win for the MAC. The Zips got to the NCAA tournament at the expense of Buffalo. In the MAC title game at Quicken Loans Arena last March, it was either Akron or Buffalo going to the NCAA. That time it was Akron advancing.

Is the writer suggesting we didn't deserve to be there, or we "stole" Buffalo's chance?

[Captain Kangaroo]

Good article.I'm not sure I understand this:

Dambrot won't give back his team's 2009 NCAA bid where they lost a first round game to Gonzaga. But it was not a win-win for the MAC. The Zips got to the NCAA tournament at the expense of Buffalo. In the MAC title game at Quicken Loans Arena last March, it was either Akron or Buffalo going to the NCAA. That time it was Akron advancing.

Is the writer suggesting we didn't deserve to be there, or we "stole" Buffalo's chance?

I think he means - In the 2009 Horizon tourney, if lower-seed CSU won, the Horizon was getting two teams in the NCAA. In the 2009 MAC tourney, regardless of who won, the MAC was only getting one team in the Dance.

[GoZips]

The dude is a knucklehead of the first order.The MAC is a better and stronger conference than the sucky Horizon. Butler would probably NOT win the MAC this year. Butler is not likely to win enough MAC gamesto finish in first place. Butler is totally over rated. Yeah, the Bulldogs are a good team. Could theybeat Akron, CANT, Miami on the road? Not likely. The MAC is a tough place to play.The MAC is having a decent year while the Horizon is completely in the dumper.Wow, what a neat deal, reward Butler for failing in their conference tournament. Smell a rat? Itsan ancient ACC trick. Make sure the marginal team wins the conference tournament so the ACCgets maximum teams in. The Horizon has been just as guilty. Its called cheating.You can bet that KD would not vote Butler as the best Mid-major. It is difficult to believe that anyonewould. They just aren't that good. In my opinion, Butler should not even make the top ten. Topfifteen I would agree. Other than Wright State, no other Horizon team should be getting votes.The MAC has at least four programs worthy of gathering votes (all in the East). CANT and Akron, at this point of the season, have earned a ticket to the NCAAs. Will both get one?Not likely. One or the other will end up in the NIT. We can see this coming as the two schoolshave separated themselves from the pack. One of the other will win the regular season title,thus assuring an NIT bid.Should a rabbit pop out of the hat and pull an upset in the MAC tourney neither CANT or Akron hasany chance of getting an NCAA bid and the team that did not win the regular season is doomed tothe likes of the CBT.For the lowly Horizon, Butler is guaranteed an NIT bid, which they wont need as they will get anNCAA bid even if they are blown out in their first Horizon tourney game. Presumably Wright Stategoes to the NIT and the crap down their leg team that pulls this year's (sic) upset also gets anNCAA bid. What a load of crap.If anyone has any delusions that Butler is the best Mid-major ... schedule them against Gonzaga.

[Captain Kangaroo]

GoZips -You're a pretty knowledgeable hoops guy, but I have to disagree with you on the Butler slight. Butler can 'ball, and no one in the MAC is close to their accomplishments this season.* Butler has won 16-in-a-row, and 18-of-their-last-19* Butler is 24-4* Butler has beaten Davidson, Northwestern, UCLA, Ohio State and Xavier.* Butler's losses include: Minnesota (by 9), Clemson (by 1), Georgetown (by 7) and UAB (by 10)Note: I have no idea how they'd fare against Malone or St Francis.Dambrot would have a heart attack if he was presented with an OOC schedule 1/2 that tough. And I would be shocked if ANY 2009-2010 MAC program, not only the Zips, could win TWO of these marquee games, let alone five.Butler is a high-mid major.Gonzaga is a high major (2009-10 wins over Colorado, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Washington State, Davidson, Oklahoma and Illinois). They quit being a mid major hoops program about 5 or 6 years ago.Butler and Gonzaga have 5+ regular season "marquee" OOC wins in 2009-10. The Zips haven't had one since Mississippi State three or four years ago.

[Quickzips]

GoZips -You're a pretty knowledgeable hoops guy, but I have to disagree with you on the Butler slight. Butler can 'ball, and no one in the MAC is close to their accomplishments this season.* Butler has won 16-in-a-row, and 18-of-their-last-19* Butler is 24-4* Butler has beaten Davidson, Northwestern, UCLA, Ohio State and Xavier.* Butler's losses include: Minnesota (by 9), Clemson (by 1), Georgetown (by 7) and UAB (by 10)Note: I have no idea how they'd fare against Malone or St Francis.Dambrot would have a heart attack if he was presented with an OOC schedule 1/2 that tough. And I would be shocked if ANY 2009-2010 MAC program, not only the Zips, could win TWO of these marquee games, let alone five.Butler is a high-mid major.Gonzaga is a high major (2009-10 wins over Colorado, Wisconsin, Cincinnati, Washington State, Davidson, Oklahoma and Illinois). They quit being a mid major hoops program about 5 or 6 years ago.Butler and Gonzaga have 5+ regular season "marquee" OOC wins in 2009-10. The Zips haven't had one since Mississippi State three or four years ago.

+1To say that Butler wouldn't win this watered down version of the MAC is to ignore what Butler has done this year and over the past few years.

[The Hip Zip]

While I appreciate Go Zips loyalty to MAC hoops I will take exception to both the opinions on Butler as well as the idea that the MAC is a better conference as a whole. Though it is all just spectulation, I do think that Butler would win the MAC and quite easily at that. They present many matchup problems with their size and would dominate the glass vs. just about anybody in our conference. If Austin Peay and EMU can come into the JAR and steal wins what makes you think that Butler could not do so as well?As far as the conferences as a whole, I'm sorry but they have us beat there as well. I'm not going to the trouble of looking it up but I know that the Horizon RPI is superior to that of the MAC. If we have an edge at at all it may be in the bottom third of the conference as our bottom feeders may well be better than YSU, UIC and Loyola. Wright St, the two Wisconsin teams and Cleveland St would all be very competitive in the MAC.I will agree that the Zags could beat the Bulldogs but as the above poster pointed out it's pretty hard to even consider the Zags to be a mid- major anymore. I would be thrilled to see the Zips schedule the better third of the Horizon to see how it would all play out on the floor. Our victories over UIC and Valpo mean very little.Some home and home series with Butler, CSU, Wright St and Detroit could all be scheduled with minimal travel and could help settle the score on the floor and that is where it counts.

[Dave in Green]

At least 26 of 31 mid-major coaches rank Butler over Gonzaga.Mid-Major Coaches Poll

[The Hip Zip]

At least 26 of 31 mid-major coaches rank Butler over Gonzaga.Mid-Major Coaches Poll

That surprises me Dave. Not that Butler is on top but the wide gap in first place votes. It would be my guess that the majority of the voters do not live in the western time zone and may have some bias. I have seen both play about 5-6 times this season and I stick with my statement that Gonzaga could beat them. It would be a great game, that's for sure.

[Z.I.P.]

Good article.I'm not sure I understand this:

Dambrot won't give back his team's 2009 NCAA bid where they lost a first round game to Gonzaga. But it was not a win-win for the MAC. The Zips got to the NCAA tournament at the expense of Buffalo. In the MAC title game at Quicken Loans Arena last March, it was either Akron or Buffalo going to the NCAA. That time it was Akron advancing.

Is the writer suggesting we didn't deserve to be there, or we "stole" Buffalo's chance?

Good article? I think I have to take issue with that. This Cleveland blogger's sole point (and it's a rather obtuse one at that) is that since the Horizon League has one top-25 team, that the league is therefore far superior to the MAC. I suspect he's standing in for Elton on this harangue. Yes -- the Horizon, at this point in history, is slightly ahead of the MAC -- due to the fact that they DON'T have football, and can spend more on hoops. However, Butler is not yet any G of the E. They haven't had the staying power yet. IF they're top-25 next year and the year after, then we can start entertaining the idea. Until then the Bulldogs and the Horizon are only a small step ahead. Go Zips. Go MAC!

[Captain Kangaroo]

Good article? I think I have to take issue with that. This Cleveland blogger's sole point (and it's a rather obtuse one at that) is that since the Horizon League has one top-25 team, that the league is therefore far superior to the MAC. I suspect he's standing in for Elton on this harangue. Yes -- the Horizon, at this point in history, is slightly ahead of the MAC -- due to the fact that they DON'T have football, and can spend more on hoops. However, Butler is not yet any G of the E. They haven't had the staying power yet. IF they're top-25 next year and the year after, then we can start entertaining the idea. Until then the Bulldogs and the Horizon are only a small step ahead. Go Zips. Go MAC!

I think the guy is dead-nuts on.If Gonzaga slips up in their post season tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Northern Iowa slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Butler slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If a MAC leader slips up in the MAC Championship...it gets an NIT.It hurts the MAC that no one dominates. In the only recent period where someone did dominate (K.e.n.t.), they won it all anyhow.

[akronzips71]

Good article? I think I have to take issue with that. This Cleveland blogger's sole point (and it's a rather obtuse one at that) is that since the Horizon League has one top-25 team, that the league is therefore far superior to the MAC. I suspect he's standing in for Elton on this harangue. Yes -- the Horizon, at this point in history, is slightly ahead of the MAC -- due to the fact that they DON'T have football, and can spend more on hoops. However, Butler is not yet any G of the E. They haven't had the staying power yet. IF they're top-25 next year and the year after, then we can start entertaining the idea. Until then the Bulldogs and the Horizon are only a small step ahead. Go Zips. Go MAC!

I think the guy is dead-nuts on.If Gonzaga slips up in their post season tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Northern Iowa slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Butler slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If a MAC leader slips up in the MAC Championship...it gets an NIT.It hurts the MAC that no one dominates. In the only recent period where someone did dominate (K.e.n.t.), they won it all anyhow.

A few years ago a controverted shot "at" the buzzer cost us the NCAA and we didn't even get an NIT bid. Some things in life are not fair...But the MAC seems to be not a mid-major but more of a low-major these days. So until the MAC improves it's image or we get into a better conference, that's the way it's gonna be.And it is a difficult situation, because obviously we are WAY too good to be Div II, and a lesser conference would not touch us with a 10 foot Serb, since we would dominate at this point. So where does that leave us? The Big 10 does not seem to be knocking on our door. I see the only way out is to improve the MAC. And I have no idea how to do that.

[MaxZIP]

I think the guy is dead-nuts on.If Gonzaga slips up in their post season tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Northern Iowa slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Butler slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If a MAC leader slips up in the MAC Championship...it gets an NIT.It hurts the MAC that no one dominates. In the only recent period where someone did dominate (K.e.n.t.), they won it all anyhow.

Do you think the parody in the MAC is due to the coaches using other MAC programs as a benchmark? They strive to beat other MAC teams and they lower their horizons in the process. Could it be due to a watered down talent pool? Why is the MAC the way it is?

[Dave in Green]

..... However, Butler is not yet any G of the E. They haven't had the staying power yet. IF they're top-25 next year and the year after, then we can start entertaining the idea. Until then the Bulldogs and the Horizon are only a small step ahead. Go Zips. Go MAC!

Are you thinking that Butler has just gotten good in the last year or so?1996-97 23-10 NCAA 1st Round 1997-98 22-11 NCAA 1st Round 1998-99 22-10 NIT Quarterfinals 1999-2000 23-8 NCAA 1st Round 2000-01 24-8 NCAA 2nd Round 2001-02 26-6 NIT 2nd Round 2002-03 27-6 NCAA Sweet Sixteen 2003-04 16-14 - 2004-05 13-15 - 2005-06 20-13 NIT 1st Round 2006-07 29-7 NCAA Sweet Sixteen 2007-08 30-4 NCAA Second Round 2008-09 26-6 NCAA First Round

[Dave in Green]

..... Do you think the parody in the MAC is due to the coaches using other MAC programs as a benchmark? .....

Please get it right:MAC reffing is a parody.The MAC conference has parity.

[Zip Watcher]

Do you think the parody in the MAC is due to the coaches using other MAC programs as a benchmark? They strive to beat other MAC teams and they lower their horizons in the process. Could it be due to a watered down talent pool? Why is the MAC the way it is?

To me there's nothing funny about being stuck in the MAC.Mike Thomas & Luis Proenza set the bar high. KD, CP, Mack and You-Tube Tom are still working to exceed that bar.If you strive to "compete with the best of the MAC" .. you'll be really close to competing with the worst of the MAC .. and if the MAC gets worse .. you get worse with it. UA needs its programs to strive to be the best in OH and compete to join the best in the nation. Caleb has gotten his program to that level. Mitchell's track teams are close. KD can see the door, and the debate is whether or not he's knocking yet or not.Gotta aim high .. many of the programs, men's hoops especially are. I don't think KD benchmarks against Can't State, Miami .. etc. Take a look at who the Zips recruit against lately. Many of the recruits are Butler, Xavier, Dayton type players more so than CMU, BGSU, OU, based simply on their offers.Go Zips!

[Dr Z]

If you strive to "compete with the best of the MAC" .. you'll be really close to competing with the worst of the MAC.

I'm using this line at some point of my life before the end of March.

[ZachTheZip]

UA needs its programs to strive to be the best in OH and compete to join the best in the nation.

I like that idea for Basketball, especially. We should use teams like Dayton and Xavier as benchmarks, not Ohio or Can't. Being the best team in Ohio means being far and away the best team in the MAC almost by default.

[ejcool27]

If the west would shape up in hoops we might be a two bid conference the problem is we have 6-7 teams who don't can't play the big guys. Also, even the top teams seem to struggle.

[OZoner]

Gotta aim high .. many of the programs, men's hoops especially are. I don't think KD benchmarks against Can't State, Miami .. etc. Take a look at who the Zips recruit against lately. Many of the recruits are Butler, Xavier, Dayton type players more so than CMU, BGSU, OU, based simply on their offers.

Recruiting has been on the rise for the past couple years for a few teams, Akron included.

[Dave in Green]

I think the guy is dead-nuts on.If Gonzaga slips up in their post season tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Northern Iowa slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If Butler slips up in their conference tourney, their conference gets 2-bids.If a MAC leader slips up in the MAC Championship...it gets an NIT.It hurts the MAC that no one dominates. In the only recent period where someone did dominate (K.e.n.t.), they won it all anyhow.

It's obviously true that a typical one-bid conference can get two bids if one team has a high enough rating to qualify for the NCAA tournament without winning its own conference championship.But, thinking only in terms of the Zips team and not whatever conference it might be in, that really doesn't change anything. Whatever conference the Zips played in, they would still either have to win their conference tournament or be a strong enough team to qualify for the NCAA tournament without winning their conference tournament.Just being in a higher-ranked conference wouldn't help if the Zips played at the same level of performance they do in the MAC. They'd be playing stronger teams with higher RPIs, but they'd be losing more of those games unless their level of play also went up to the same overall level of the conference in which they were playing.

[akronzips71]

Back when I attended UA we were a Div II independent. Our big games were against such giants as Buffalo State and Philadelphia Textile and Kentucky Wesleyan.So being in the MAC is, in a sense, a slice of heaven. Win the tourney and get a bid to the big dance. WOW.That being said, UA is just too big of a school to compete in a low end conference. We need an upgrade. Being in a conference that gets only one bid is an albatross around our neck. It is so hard to recruit when you don't get the exposure.

[Captain Kangaroo]

I see the only way out is to improve the MAC.

Did Butler sit around and wait for the rest of the Horizon to get better?Did Boise State football sit around and wait for the rest of the non-BCS football programs to get better?We need to improve ourselves. What Eastern Michigan or Ball State choose to do should have no bearing on the Zips. Unless they are the ones who make the investment required to dominate the MAC, and we luckily knock them off in the MAC finals every once in a while.Like Butler's done to the rest of the Horizon, we can make the MAC our bitch if we make the investment to do so. If we don't, we won't.

[Zip Watcher]

I see the only way out is to improve the MAC.

Did Butler sit around and wait for the rest of the Horizon to get better?Did Boise State football sit around and wait for the rest of the non-BCS football programs to get better?We need to improve ourselves. What Eastern Michigan or Ball State choose to do should have no bearing on the Zips. Like Butler's done to the rest of the Horizon, we can make the MAC our bitch if we make the investment to do so. If we don't, we won't.

Agreed.Some of it may be the schedule, but I think a big part of this is finding away to improve the JAR from a player / coach facility perspective. It's the worst facility (maybe behind rifle?) on campus and behind much of the conference and the nation.UA has managed to catapult it's FB facilities squarely into the top 20 or so in the nation, bar none. The cost to do so for the hoops teams is a fraction of that. We've got to find a way to get that done. Note: I'm NOT talking about a new arena, or better fan amenities at the JAR. They're important, but way down on the priority list over better team lockerroom, film room & team rooms. For both the men and women. In essence, upgrade the JAR to be as good a team / practice facility as the Stile Fieldhouse is for FB.Go Zips!

[The Hip Zip]

Back when I attended UA we were a Div II independent. Our big games were against such giants as Buffalo State and Philadelphia Textile and Kentucky Wesleyan.So being in the MAC is, in a sense, a slice of heaven. Win the tourney and get a bid to the big dance. WOW.That being said, UA is just too big of a school to compete in a low end conference. We need an upgrade. Being in a conference that gets only one bid is an albatross around our neck. It is so hard to recruit when you don't get the exposure.

Wow, that brought back some memories. Don't forget Gannon, we had some really good games with them.