Lady Zips Competitiveness?

[UAZipster0305]

Given the success of the men's program and the world-class facilities, how long will it be before the women's side is regularly seen in the top 25 and NCAA Tournament? As a new program, tradition is not in their favor. Could Coach Porter run both through a puppet coach on the women's side that employs his coaching philosophies? It would be an epic accomplishment unparalleled in other programs and sports if he could. I would love to see us as Soccer U with Akron Soccer being branded as opposed to just Akron Men's Soccer.

Hey, I'm not complaining. We're still

[Zipmeister]

Given the success of the men's program and the world-class facilities, how long will it be before the women's side is regularly seen in the top 25 and NCAA Tournament? As a new program, tradition is not in their favor. Could Coach Porter run both through a puppet coach on the women's side that employs his coaching philosophies? It would be an epic accomplishment unparalleled in other programs and sports if he could. I would love to see us as Soccer U with Akron Soccer being branded as opposed to just Akron Men's Soccer.

Hey, I'm not complaining. We're still

This is one of the best ideas you have ever come up with Trimmy. One thing that could work in our favor is the fact that we have many highly skilled members of the men's team who are getting little playing time. I know that PCoach would not do anything unethical like playing some of these guys on the women's squad, but what if we could get three or four of them to agree to gender reassignment so that they are legally female. A little snip here, a little snip there, and I believe our women's team is instantly (well after a little healing time) a legitimate title contender.

[UAZipster0305]

That wasn't at all what I meant.

I think this is a new ZNO record...hijacked in the very first response.

Anyone care to hate on OSU here and at least take this off on a familiar tangent?

[skip-zip]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

[johnnyzip84]

This is one of the best ideas you have ever come up with Trimmy. One thing that could work in our favor is the fact that we have many highly skilled members of the men's team who are getting little playing time. I know that PCoach would not do anything unethical like playing some of these guys on the women's squad, but what if we could get three or four of them to agree to gender reassignment so that they are legally female. A little snip here, a little snip there, and I believe our women's team is instantly (well after a little healing time) a legitimate title contender.

One of your finest efforts yet, Zipmeister! The phrase "A little snip here, a little snip there" is priceless

[TheTank123]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

Times change. Plus, really? The Zips haven't gained any notoriety because of the soccer team? Take any notoriety the basketball or football team has, multiply it by 18 and you still aren't getting anywhere near the notoriety of the soccer team. Every soccer fan in the country knows who Akron is, whether it be because of the national championship or because of multiple MLS players. I would bet your average NFL or NBA fan couldn't name a single player from Akron (aside from Jason Taylor and I'd be surprised if they knew he went there). Trust me, out here in Boston, MA no one is impressed with the basketball or football team. It's all soccer, all the time.

[Zipmeister]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

Times change. Plus, really? The Zips haven't gained any notoriety because of the soccer team? Take any notoriety the basketball or football team has, multiply it by 18 and you still aren't getting anywhere near the notoriety of the soccer team. Every soccer fan in the country knows who Akron is, whether it be because of the national championship or because of multiple MLS players. I would bet your average NFL or NBA fan couldn't name a single player from Akron (aside from Jason Taylor and I'd be surprised if they knew he went there). Trust me, out here in Boston, MA no one is impressed with the basketball or football team. It's all soccer, all the time.

You may have just come up with the next great advertising slogan to boost the economy of Boston.

"Boston, all soccer, all the time."

[skip-zip]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

Times change. Plus, really? The Zips haven't gained any notoriety because of the soccer team? Take any notoriety the basketball or football team has, multiply it by 18 and you still aren't getting anywhere near the notoriety of the soccer team. Every soccer fan in the country knows who Akron is, whether it be because of the national championship or because of multiple MLS players. I would bet your average NFL or NBA fan couldn't name a single player from Akron (aside from Jason Taylor and I'd be surprised if they knew he went there). Trust me, out here in Boston, MA no one is impressed with the basketball or football team. It's all soccer, all the time.

Please, tell me where I stated that we didn't earn any notoriety from our soccer championship?

But, you did mention the key word yourself, "soccer fans" noticed our championship.

But back to the response to this post topic. Making a heavy investment in women's soccer in order to possibly build a major college athletic program around men's and women's soccer combined is a bad idea.

Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources?

Football and basketball are by far the kingpins of collegiate sports, and always will be.

[ZachTheZip]

The mens and womens teams share a lot of resources, so investing in the mens team also helps the womens team See the stadium renovations for an example. It helps recruiting for both teams. The mens team winning on ESPN helps the womens team with recruiting as well. And that's where it all starts to get their team to a high level: recruit talent and winning the MAC consistently shouldn't be too difficult.

[Dave in Green]

..... Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources? .....

Here's my question: When you look at the resources dedicated by schools with the best football programs in the country, does UA have the resources to compete at that top level?

There's no question about soccer. It's already been done. UA is #1. To be at the top in basketball would require significantly greater resources. To be at the top in football would require astronomically greater resources. The bigger the sport, the greater the resources required to compete at the top level.

What is the biggest sport that UA realistically has the resources to compete at the top level? That's the sport where the resources should be focused.

[ZachTheZip]

..... Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources? .....

Here's my question: When you look at the resources dedicated by schools with the best football programs in the country, does UA have the resources to compete at that top level?

There's no question about soccer. It's already been done. UA is #1. To be at the top in basketball would require significantly greater resources. To be at the top in football would require astronomically greater resources. The bigger the sport, the greater the resources required to compete at the top level.

What is the biggest sport that UA realistically has the resources to compete at the top level? That's the sport where the resources should be focused.

So we should be a Baseball school?

[skip-zip]

..... Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources? .....

Here's my question: When you look at the resources dedicated by schools with the best football programs in the country, does UA have the resources to compete at that top level?

There's no question about soccer. It's already been done. UA is #1. To be at the top in basketball would require significantly greater resources. To be at the top in football would require astronomically greater resources. The bigger the sport, the greater the resources required to compete at the top level.

What is the biggest sport that UA realistically has the resources to compete at the top level? That's the sport where the resources should be focused.

So, you're in favor of dumping more money into women's soccer in the hopes that their success, along with the men's success, will elevate the entire athletic program as a whole? It has a very small benefit, at best.

Even with the men's program, you're looking at building your athletic programs around a sport where the #1 school in the nation draws 3,000 fans per game. What would you gain by investing your resources there? Still no TV of any significance, limited publicity, and maybe a few hundred more dollars in revenue per game from having a few more fans.

The gain in football is infinitely greater. And although it takes more investment, you can also increase attendance by 10s of thousands, and TV revenue by hundreds of thousands, if not millions.

I was using the best soccer team and the best football teams only as a comparison of where the two sports stand in fan interest. Akron isn't ever going to draw what the top programs draw for football. But, to be successful enough to take our attendance from 10,000 to 20,000 or 30,000, with higher revenue TV games, millions of viewers, etc., is a dramatic return on investment that would never be realized with an increased investment in women's and men's soccer.

[Dave in Green]

I'm saying that investing resources in women's soccer to leverage what you've already invested over the years in infrastructure and personnel to support the #1 men's team is a good investment because there's a realistic chance of UA building women's soccer into a #1 program.

That doesn't mean not investing in football or basketball, just being realistic that UA doesn't have the resources to compete against the elite teams in basketball or football.

The relatively small amount of resources necessary to try for #1 in women's soccer would not make a significant difference if applied to trying to raise the level of the basketball or football teams.

I say this from the point of view of being primarily a basketball and football fan myself, and understanding that football and basketball are the two biggest college sports that get the most attention.

However, I also recognize the value to a university of being recognized as #1 in any sport, and if there's a realistic and cost-effective chance of getting there, it's foolish not to try.

[Wally B]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

Times change. Plus, really? The Zips haven't gained any notoriety because of the soccer team? Take any notoriety the basketball or football team has, multiply it by 18 and you still aren't getting anywhere near the notoriety of the soccer team. Every soccer fan in the country knows who Akron is, whether it be because of the national championship or because of multiple MLS players. I would bet your average NFL or NBA fan couldn't name a single player from Akron (aside from Jason Taylor and I'd be surprised if they knew he went there). Trust me, out here in Boston, MA no one is impressed with the basketball or football team. It's all soccer, all the time.

Please, tell me where I stated that we didn't earn any notoriety from our soccer championship?

But, you did mention the key word yourself, "soccer fans" noticed our championship.

But back to the response to this post topic. Making a heavy investment in women's soccer in order to possibly build a major college athletic program around men's and women's soccer combined is a bad idea.

Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources?

Football and basketball are by far the kingpins of collegiate sports, and always will be.

Easy there skippy!!!! Take two of these and go back to the fb/bb boards in the morning

[UAZipster0305]

I'm saying that investing resources in women's soccer to leverage what you've already invested over the years in infrastructure and personnel to support the #1 men's team is a good investment because there's a realistic chance of UA building women's soccer into a #1 program.

That doesn't mean not investing in football or basketball, just being realistic that UA doesn't have the resources to compete against the elite teams in basketball or football.

The relatively small amount of resources necessary to try for #1 in women's soccer would not make a significant difference if applied to trying to raise the level of the basketball or football teams.

I say this from the point of view of being primarily a basketball and football fan myself, and understanding that football and basketball are the two biggest college sports that get the most attention.

However, I also recognize the value to a university of being recognized as #1 in any sport, and if there's a realistic and cost-effective chance of getting there, it's foolish not to try.

+1! This was precisely my point in starting this thread. Other than tradition, there is nothing preventing UA from catching up to UNC and ND in women's soccer. And no, this does not require a diminished investing in football or basketball. I would guess that the extra ca$h to put the women's program over the top is relatively small.

[72 Roo]

Our women's soccer program will benefit from the success of the men. We fund the ladies at a respectable level. Enough that we should dominate the MAC. Having watched the ladies many, many times I'm not sure we are playing the type of game that best utilizes our ladies' talent. It is a direct, through-ball dominant attach that is frustrating and boring. The girls are questioning the philosphy. They want to win as badly as any team on campus. Before we sink more dogh into the ladies the administration needs to see greater productivity = wins. That's not an unreasonable expectation. If it doesn't change next year expect to see a change at the top. This team has the talent to win.

[UAZipster0305]

Our women's soccer program will benefit from the success of the men. We fund the ladies at a respectable level. Enough that we should dominate the MAC. Having watched the ladies many, many times I'm not sure we are playing the type of game that best utilizes our ladies' talent. It is a direct, through-ball dominant attach that is frustrating and boring. The girls are questioning the philosphy. They want to win as badly as any team on campus. Before we sink more dogh into the ladies the administration needs to see greater productivity = wins. That's not an unreasonable expectation. If it doesn't change next year expect to see a change at the top. This team has the talent to win.

It sounds like another installment of dominant (possession) soccer is long over due.

[skip-zip]

With all respect if you like this sport, are you implying that we should build an athletic program around soccer? And that a stronger women's program would help?

Of course, we all enjoyed what happened here a little more than a week ago. But, most sports fans in this country didn't even notice. Some might not even know that soccer is a college sport, or that Akron has a team.

You gain notoriety through football and basketball. That's where the emphasis should remain.

Times change. Plus, really? The Zips haven't gained any notoriety because of the soccer team? Take any notoriety the basketball or football team has, multiply it by 18 and you still aren't getting anywhere near the notoriety of the soccer team. Every soccer fan in the country knows who Akron is, whether it be because of the national championship or because of multiple MLS players. I would bet your average NFL or NBA fan couldn't name a single player from Akron (aside from Jason Taylor and I'd be surprised if they knew he went there). Trust me, out here in Boston, MA no one is impressed with the basketball or football team. It's all soccer, all the time.

Please, tell me where I stated that we didn't earn any notoriety from our soccer championship?

But, you did mention the key word yourself, "soccer fans" noticed our championship.

But back to the response to this post topic. Making a heavy investment in women's soccer in order to possibly build a major college athletic program around men's and women's soccer combined is a bad idea.

Let me ask you a question. The Akron men's soccer team (the best in the country) drew roughly a few thousand per game. The best football programs in the country can draw over 100,000 per game. If you wanted to grow the athletic prowess of your University, where would you invest your resources?

Football and basketball are by far the kingpins of collegiate sports, and always will be.

Easy there skippy!!!! Take two of these and go back to the fb/bb boards in the morning

I must be outwardly expressing a little holiday stress. But, I am not cutting on soccer. I wish right now that soccer got tons of publicity. But it is what it is.

[UAZipster0305]

Still waiting for GP1 or Z.I.P. to drop in on this one.

[acstorfer]

Still waiting for GP1 or Z.I.P. to drop in on this one.

First off, Chase Blackburn, Domenic Hixon (what can I say, I'm a Giants fan and they both have rings) and oh, another Zip footballer worth noting... John Heisman!

Secondly, just geography can easily explain why we can never be competitive in the upper echelon of college football. OSU, Penn State, Michigan, etc., we can never recruit over those historical powerhouse schools in spitting difference. Even the Big East schools aren't that far. Saying that, we should be much more competitive within the MAC. There is no excuse for last year's record, especially considering the resources which were spent.

Basketball? I don't see why we can't be competitive there. Anyone ever hear of Gonzaga before the 90's? The JAR is a nice home court. Then again, it looks like we are doing better there. We won the MAC two years ago, lost in the NCAA tournament to Gonzaga and the Zips were competitive throughout most of the game. We should have won the MAC last year. So we are getting there, we just need to outrecruit CSU.

As far as the dividends for winning a national championship in soccer, it won't be from increased attendance or television. It will be from alumni support.

[soccerbirdie16]

I agree with you in the fact that I believe the Women's program will benefit from the success of the men.

Hower, I respectfully disagree with you about the current state of the women's program. The team has grown leaps and bounds over the last few years. The program started in 2000 and had never qualified for the MAC tournament before last year. They had been playing weak, non-conference opponents and didn't fare well within the MAC during this time - for the most part. They are now playing solid out-of-conference teams and that in turn, will make them better. The team started off with mostly local (OH, PA) mid-level club players - which is expected as you start a program. Then you build on what you have. The talent is getting better and if you have watched them over the last few years you can see that they are building a more possesion oriented focus. However, until you can recruit the top tier players, which this program is now starting to do - you have to play within the scope/skill/mentality of the players that you do have. It looks as if the next few classes of players come from top clubs, ODP, ECNL, etc. where they are used to playing high quality soccer and competing against other athletes. I look forward to seeing these types of players phase in over the next few years. I am pleased with how this team has grown and am excited for the future!

I can't really speak to the point of the team questioning the philosophy - but, it seems to me, this "philosophy" has been working well for them up until this point. They have been more successful than ever. I didn't see any questioning looks on their faces when they won the MAC east or were playing in the conference tournament. I would hope that the team could focus on their accomplishments and continue to want more - they will get there - I don't doubt that!!

Our women's soccer program will benefit from the success of the men. We fund the ladies at a respectable level. Enough that we should dominate the MAC. Having watched the ladies many, many times I'm not sure we are playing the type of game that best utilizes our ladies' talent. It is a direct, through-ball dominant attach that is frustrating and boring. The girls are questioning the philosphy. They want to win as badly as any team on campus. Before we sink more dogh into the ladies the administration needs to see greater productivity = wins. That's not an unreasonable expectation. If it doesn't change next year expect to see a change at the top. This team has the talent to win.

[Dave in Green]

..... Basketball? I don't see why we can't be competitive there. Anyone ever hear of Gonzaga before the 90's? .....

Anyone ever hear of Gonzaga's basketball budget? About double UA's -- $3,053,437 vs. $1,603,402 in 2008. Among other things, Gonzaga's basketball team has a private jet for road games and for jetting the coaches overseas to evaluate foreign talent. Gonzaga has no football team. Basketball is the focal point of their athletic budget.

[Z.I.P.]

Given the success of the men's program and the world-class facilities, how long will it be before the women's side is regularly seen in the top 25 and NCAA Tournament? As a new program, tradition is not in their favor. Could Coach Porter run both through a puppet coach on the women's side that employs his coaching philosophies? It would be an epic accomplishment unparalleled in other programs and sports if he could. I would love to see us as Soccer U with Akron Soccer being branded as opposed to just Akron Men's Soccer.

Hey, I'm not complaining. We're still

Thanks trimmy for your contribution. In spite of the to-be-expected response from the naysayers, soccer, or if you will, football is far and away the world's biggest sporting spectacle, and ummmm, thinking culturally, perhaps only the motion picture industry can compete with it in the entertainment arena. Hey, if you're looking for a to beat up, this thread is as good as any.

But if trimmy is speaking literally (i.e., coaching both the men and women's teams), the feat has in fact been done, by the legendary University of Portland Pilots Head Coach Clive Charles who lead both UofP teams, and excelled as manager of both (title: "Director of Soccer") for many years before dieing from cancer in 2003 after leading the Pilot women to their second national championship). Bill Irwin has coached the Portland men and women since then -- he relies heavily on his assistants of course -- I believe he dedicates most of his time to the women's program. Clive Charles was largely responsible for making soccer the king of sports in Portland. And Caleb Porter could provide the same impetus in Akron. Notice how the Wikipedia article on Portland athletics focuses primarily on the soccer teams? That's relative to their success compared with the rest of the teams.

However, I feel we should give our two-year head coach, Chris Pfau all the room he needs to deliver a winning and eventually NCAA tournament team to Akron. His incoming recruiting class is probably the best in the MAC. And I expect the future to improve even more, recruiting wise, if they start to put together consistent results and a MAC title in the next couple of years -- a result not out of what we might expect at this point in time. I don't want to put too much pressure on Chris' shoulders, but expectations for his program are increasing -- and hopefully he can receive some help from an incoming men's recruit to gain his first US international player. No names mentioned here, but a little research can provide the solution to my puzzler.

[soccerbirdie16]

A couple of things I want to add that I think a lot of people are forgetting.......History of the program!! The men's team took 40 plus years or so to win a national title. The last 30 years they have been in the top 10 and Coach Porter took over a program that was number 1 in the country. It is great what he has done but there are a lot of past head coaches that put them on the map and got them to this position. Over the years, recruiting classes got better and better to allow him to get a player like Ampai. History and reputation of the program continue to draw in the top recruits on the men's side. The women's program is going to need time to develop just as the men's did.

The women's team just finished up their 10th season and for 7 of those years they were not even competitive. They are also competing against twice as many schools than the men's side. The men win a National Title and now everyone thinks the women's should benefit from this? Agreed - people have now at least heard of Akron in regards to soccer. Yes, they got a new stadium and new locker room. But to gain perspective: have you seen Tennesse's stadium and locker room? Their media room for women's soccer is better than most MAC Football teams. The Big XXII has women's soccer only, which means all of title IX money increases their budget tremendously. Their faciltities are so much better than what Akron has - not intended to sound ungrateful - just a comparison. The women don't even have chairs for the desks, pictures, etc. in their locker room because they don't have the budget for it. The other schools use private jets at times, they have unlimited budgets that allow them to travel and recruit all over the country. Yes, Akron's new stadium is very nice and a great step forward. And maybe up there with any men's program but not compared to any BCS women's soccer programs. So when women's soccer is looking at a top player and they are looking at a Michigan or a Missouri there is no comparison. Players at the National level do not want to compete in the MAC where 11 of their 18 games will be played. The men, as bad as their conference is, only plays 6, giving them better opportunities to strengthen their schedule and attract that National player out of conference.

I am a huge soccer supporter on both the men's and women's side. I just don't think that we can make such easy comparisons. I think what the Men have done is incredible. They deserve every accolade and I wish them nothing but the best!

Why it is great that we all want the women's team to be successful and win now, look back 3 years ago and see where they were and how they played. There is a saying: how you want to play and how you can play are 2 different things. This 2010 class is really Coach Pfau's first recruiting class. Give him time and see what he can do. In that time - I would guess you will see their style of play evolve, it has in 3 years alone. Look at Memphis and Central Florida, 2 mid majors where both the women's soccer porgam are in the top 30. It took their coaches 7- 10 years to get where they are.

Again, not complaining.......just showing different perspectives to the topic.

[ZachTheZip]

Want the women's team to succeed? Go to the games and cheer and be loud. How good would our men's team be if they played in front of 200 people? They would still be a very good team but I think our home field advantage helped push them over the edge. Just look at which side the large majority of goals were scored is on.

Go to the games. A large crowd inspires the team to perform better and intimidates the opponents. It helps sell the program to better recruits. And it creates an atmosphere that draws in even more fans over time.

Go to the games.