Akron September opponent's coach in hot water?

[GP1]

If they want to make $5000, why shouldn't they have to work 500 hours like the rest of the students that go to college?

Because there is a demand for their services. If a non athlete could make $1,250/hour, why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's called a free country.

It would be terrible for college football to have a viable minor league football system. There would be a huge decline in the quality of play across the board. The talent makes the game entertaining, not the game itself. If you think the MAC is bad now.....yikes. The reason players don't do the arena league or whatever league is out there is they aren't realistic methods of showing off their talents.

[ZachTheZip]

why shouldn't they have to work 500 hours like the rest of the students that go to college?

You think TP is like the rest of the students that go to college?

He's decidely less intelligent.

[ZachTheZip]

If they want to make $5000, why shouldn't they have to work 500 hours like the rest of the students that go to college?

Because there is a demand for their services. If a non athlete could make $1,250/hour, why shouldn't they be allowed to? It's called a free country.

It would be terrible for college football to have a viable minor league football system. There would be a huge decline in the quality of play across the board. The talent makes the game entertaining, not the game itself. If you think the MAC is bad now.....yikes. The reason players don't do the arena league or whatever league is out there is they aren't realistic methods of showing off their talents.

The players agreed to abide by NCAA laws when they joined the organization. If they don't like the terms, they can find an alternative. It is, after all, a free country.

Anyway, I think your definition of college football is off. College football is called college football because it has to do with colleges and students who attend those colleges. Conversely, professional football is about professional organizations and the employees who play for them. If a college wants to pay athletes, they would forfeit their non-profit status by becoming a professional organization since they admit they are in it to make a profit which less than 10% of the BCS schools do even without the expense of paying players. If they think they could get ahead by doing so, they would have done it a long time ago.

[Dave in Green]

Free country is not the same as anything goes. You're free to do what you want to do as long as you obey rules, regulations and laws. If you are proven not to have obeyed rules, regulations and laws, you are subject to being penalized by the appropriate authorities, up to and including having some of your freedoms taken away.

The current rules and regulations governing college football provide student athletes with a free college education plus a modest amount of expense money, which allows student athletes to focus on education and athletics without having to also hold a job to pay their bills.

If these student athletes prove in college that they are professional caliber athletes, they go on to make millions after they graduate and sign their pro contracts.

If they don't make it in the pros, they still have a college education and the ability to earn more during their working careers than the average person without a college degree.

No system is perfect. They all have flaws, some worse than others. Any potential replacement for the current system should be scrutinized and analyzed to the nth degree to understand whether it is more or less flawed.

The fundamental consideration of any potential replacement system should be:

First, do no harm.

[GP1]

Free country is not the same as anything goes. You're free to do what you want to do as long as you obey rules, regulations and laws. If you are proven not to have obeyed rules, regulations and laws, you are subject to being penalized by the appropriate authorities, up to and including having some of your freedoms taken away.

What if the rules are unjust to the point of being immoral?

[GP1]

College football is called college football because it has to do with colleges and students who attend those colleges. Conversely, professional football is about professional organizations and the employees who play for them. If a college wants to pay athletes, they would forfeit their non-profit status by becoming a professional organization since they admit they are in it to make a profit which less than 10% of the BCS schools do even without the expense of paying players. If they think they could get ahead by doing so, they would have done it a long time ago.

Since when has college football been about student athletes?

College football isn't about professional organizations and the employees who play for them? Wait a minute. They are completely professional organizations making money off of a labor force that doesn't get paid. Professional football has a higher moral standing because the player actually get paid for making millions for their organization. The players in college football are forced into illegal, under the table incomes that force them into criminal actions while in college.

Your argument comes back to schools paying players. I don't think the schools should pay the players. The players should be able to have any form of legal income they wish.

I really don't see the problem with a human being earning a legal income.

[GoZips]

Let's forget for the moment that most college athletes get about $16,000 per year in Pell grants

to assist their educational needs,

Let us adopt the system that some of you are clamoring for.

Let's just pay each player according to his need and ability. Obviously a stud player

such as Terrell Pryor should command a salary in the neighborhood of, say, $250,000

per season. Most of his tOSU teammates should command one hundred to two hundred

thousand per season.

Now, all eight of the schools able to pay these salaries will be able to form a super league

that gets all the TV money and time slots. That's four whole football games every Saturday.

Screw all the other 900 plus schools that use to field sports teams.

It is, after all, a "free" country.

[ZachTheZip]

Free country is not the same as anything goes. You're free to do what you want to do as long as you obey rules, regulations and laws. If you are proven not to have obeyed rules, regulations and laws, you are subject to being penalized by the appropriate authorities, up to and including having some of your freedoms taken away.

What if the rules are unjust to the point of being immoral?

Then don't join the organization that establishes those rules. Find a different one or create your own. Maybe you should start up a new collegiate athletic association with your ideas.

[ZachTheZip]

Since when has college football been about student athletes?

Since it began.

College football isn't about professional organizations and the employees who play for them? Wait a minute. They are completely professional organizations making money off of a labor force that doesn't get paid. Professional football has a higher moral standing because the player actually get paid for making millions for their organization. The players in college football are forced into illegal, under the table incomes that force them into criminal actions while in college.

How many times does it need mentioned before you get it? Colleges don't make money on athletics.

College players aren't forced into anything. Like I said, if they don't want to go to college, they don't have to. The NFL's rules don't say a player needs to go to college, just that they have to have been out of high school for three years.

Your argument comes back to schools paying players. I don't think the schools should pay the players. The players should be able to have any form of legal income they wish.

I really don't see the problem with a human being earning a legal income.

They can earn any legal income they wish. The thing is, the things you talk about are illegal.

[zen]

The players agreed to abide by NCAA laws when they joined the organization. If they don't like the terms, they can find an alternative. It is, after all, a free country.

You pretty much spelled out a monopoly.

The NCAA is a racket. There are no alternatives. Nothing remotely viable in any competitive definition.

The NCAA can make puppets out of everyone as a condition of involvement.

I strongly believe in the merits of capitalism, but only competitive market capitalism. I am also strongly in favor of the spirit of anti-trust/anti-monopoly.

I am not convinced that it's a good thing for collegiate stars at top schools to make ridiculous loot at big engagements, but I don't think the NCAA should be given the right to govern the liberties and the rights of student-athletes in order to participate.

[ZachTheZip]

I don't think the NCAA should be given the right to govern the liberties and the rights of student-athletes in order to participate.

I suppose you think it's wrong for a companies to enforce a code of conduct for their employees, too?

And the NCAA is not a monopoly. It's not a necessary step toward becoming a professional athlete.

Calling the NCAA a monopoly is like saying that automobiles are a monopoly because so many people prefer driving to taking a bus or train.

[skip-zip]

They shouldn't be able to get "jobs" because of the obvious benefits they could receive at the bigger schools, therefore creating an unfair advantage in terms of recruiting.

And.....if these guys are so darn poor, and can't pay their bills, why do most of them look like they have thousands of dollars worth of tatoos on their body?

Enough said.

[Zipsrifle]

I used to be firmly in the "their pay is the free education they receive" camp. Now, not so much. For me it boils down to these points. First, it is a very physical game where your career could be ended at any time. Those kids take quite a beating out there. Second, there are millions (Billions?) of dollars spent each year on this sport and LOTS of people are making money off of it. The kids who are required for this thing to work are caught in the middle. A kid could do everything he is supposed to for 4 years and in his final bowl game, bam, gets a nasty injury. He's pretty much done. What is he supposed to do, go off and work for some firm in an office building with his degree? He may have sold $500k worth of jersey's for the university, but now he's making 40K a year. Really? Additionally, these kids are young, there are lots of temptations for these kids and when the adults who are there to "Lead" them are trying to get part of the $$$ these kids are raking in.....well, anybody else see some conflict there? The system is broken.

I could go on, but I for one am open to suggestions of how to reorganize NCAA football. Maybe basketball too. The whole situation is a mess. I also recognize what this will probably mean as an Akron fan. I don't have an answer for this situation, but I do think it is time to take a look a revenue generating sports in college and see how things can be reworked for the players. I'm not saying they get paid, that is one option, but it is time to try something new.

[K92]

The OSU scandals have definitely kept this soap opera from getting the attention it deserves.

[zen]

I suppose you think it's wrong for a companies to enforce a code of conduct for their employees, too?

I can leave my current job and find another one.

It might not be easy in this economy but that is not the point. I don't have to play adhere to my current employer's code of conduct, even if I signed an agreement to do so, because I have options. There are other places I could work. (Not to mention, I could sue my current employer if they fired me based on unreasonable terms in "code of conduct").

So you really are reinforcing my point.

And the NCAA is not a monopoly. It's not a necessary step toward becoming a professional athlete.

Necessary?

haha, do you see what you did there?

Now you're going to say that you don't have to become a professional athlete, OR that there may be other ways of becoming a professional athlete, but these options are not competitive viable alternatives. The NCAA is a pay to play racket. You are not paying out of your pocket, but they are getting paid lots because of you, and if you decide not to play, they can shrug it off and replace you with thousands and thousands of viable alternatives. They have all the choices, you have none.

Calling the NCAA a monopoly is like saying that automobiles are a monopoly because so many people prefer driving to taking a bus or train.

You really are struggling with this concept, aren't you?

Your metaphor is absurd.

There is no single organization stopping you from using an automobile, besides the government, and the government is a socially sanctioned monopoly of power. (if you want to debate government monopoly on authority, we can take this to a politics thread in the smack forum). Ford motor company can't stop you from buying a General Motors product. There IS NO MONOPOLY because there are viable alternatives.

The NCAA has none, and they have intentionally structured their rules, as well as their arrangements with other organizations, in order to have that monopoly.

If you could please show me where you can graduate HS and enter the NFL draft, I think you would do well in this discussion. Even that doesn't mean the NCAA isn't a monopoly, because there isn't a viable institutional alternative. You would simply be able to bypass them as a gateway. But at least there would be an option.

[GP1]

Article

Great article on why the BCS and NCAA is a monopoly.

This gets back to one of the points I always make. The ncaa needs to reform itself before the government does. It would not be out of bounds for the government to regulate the ncaa as interstate commerce. When the government determines there is a monopoly, they frequently make the monopoly break up. I'd love for the ncaa to be broken up. It would be the best thing for college athletics. Multiple leagues and organizations could be more creative in how they go to market. It would be much more interesting than the single minded ncaa.

The ncaa needs to reform itself by adding levels within college football that allow the BCS schools to basically enter the sunshine and come out as the professional organizations they all are. If not, every off season is going to be filled with talk of one school who badly broke the rules. This year it is tosu. Last year it was usc. Next year it will be another school. How is that good for college football? I realize it has been entertaining making fun of tosu the past few months, but it isn't a good story for college football.

[GP1]

And the NCAA is not a monopoly. It's not a necessary step toward becoming a professional athlete.

Necessary?

haha, do you see what you did there?

He doesn't or he wouldn't keep making those types of statements.

The ncaa is a complete racket. Anyone who thinks bcs level college football is about being a student first is kidding himself. It is about the money and has always been about the money.

[GP1]

They shouldn't be able to get "jobs" because of the obvious benefits they could receive at the bigger schools, therefore creating an unfair advantage in terms of recruiting.

And.....if these guys are so darn poor, and can't pay their bills, why do most of them look like they have thousands of dollars worth of tatoos on their body?

The big schools already have an unfair advantage in recruiting. You don't think $100 handshakes are discussed with recruits and their player/host during their recruiting visit? You don't think that tosu is better able to line up more attractive girls for guys on visits than Akron? You don't think they are all being offered more money to go to tosu than say Akron? You don't think that a recruit walking into a 100,000 seat stadium in Ann Arbor is more impressed than one walking into InfoCision? Please, please, please stop creating illusions for yourself.

They get the tatoos because they are forced into a type of black market that forces them to break antiquated ncaa rules in order to get what they need or want. When they break the ncaa rules by taking money under the table, they are also breaking real tax laws. How is that good for college football and the players playing. If people really wanted to protect the players, they would allow them to make money in the open in a legal manner.

[GP1]

Let's forget for the moment that most college athletes get about $16,000 per year in Pell grants

to assist their educational needs,

Let us adopt the system that some of you are clamoring for.

Let's just pay each player according to his need and ability.

Wow, that $16,000 is almost to the poverty level!!! A guy can live it up on that. This mentality is completely void of any understanding of where a lot of the kids come from and is really the 1950s mentality I like to make fun of. Most people in this country have zero idea how poor many of the families the kids playing college football really are. Many players would have to take that $16,000 and give a lot of it to maybe his single mother on welfare so she can take care of her other children. Any kid who loved his mother and fellow siblings would do everything he could to help her. To pretend otherwise is silly.

Again, the answer isn't to pay the kid. The answer is to allow him to make a legal income as long as he keeps up with the most important thing in his life....football, and second....school work. As long as he is fulfilling those obligations in that order, he should be allowed to have a job.

[zen]

Let's forget for the moment that most college athletes get about $16,000 per year in Pell grants

to assist their educational needs,

Let us adopt the system that some of you are clamoring for.

Let's just pay each player according to his need and ability.

Wow, that $16,000 is almost to the poverty level!!! A guy can live it up on that. This mentality is completely void of any understanding of where a lot of the kids come from and is really the 1950s mentality I like to make fun of. Most people in this country have zero idea how poor many of the families the kids playing college football really are. Many players would have to take that $16,000 and give a lot of it to maybe his single mother on welfare so she can take care of her other children. Any kid who loved his mother and fellow siblings would do everything he could to help her. To pretend otherwise is silly.

Again, the answer isn't to pay the kid. The answer is to allow him to make a legal income as long as he keeps up with the most important thing in his life....football, and second....school work. As long as he is fulfilling those obligations in that order, he should be allowed to have a job.

agree (except that a LOT of kids playing college ball are not from poor families and I think that is a stereotype. Some might be)

I don't think the athletes need to be given a piece of the NCAA's pie, I think the NCAA's pie is a monopoly and they wouldn't have the ability to control the lives of it's student participants if it wasn't one.

[Dave in Green]

Free country is not the same as anything goes. You're free to do what you want to do as long as you obey rules, regulations and laws. If you are proven not to have obeyed rules, regulations and laws, you are subject to being penalized by the appropriate authorities, up to and including having some of your freedoms taken away.

What if the rules are unjust to the point of being immoral?

There are many injustices in the world that rise to the level of immorality. Getting a bigger cut of the loot for pampered college student athletes is near the bottom of the priorities list.

But, to answer your question, there are three choices as it relates to "unjust" rules against college student football players taking home more loot:

1. Accept the rules as part of the total equation that "life's not fair," move on with your life and find a way to legally get your share of life's loot within the current system.

2. Break the rules, pocket the cheater's loot and accept the consequences if you get caught.

3. Change the system by convincing the public and the courts that there's a fairer system with fewer flaws that will generally benefit the public more than the current system.

[ZachTheZip]

Let's forget for the moment that most college athletes get about $16,000 per year in Pell grants

to assist their educational needs,

Let us adopt the system that some of you are clamoring for.

Let's just pay each player according to his need and ability.

Wow, that $16,000 is almost to the poverty level!!! A guy can live it up on that. This mentality is completely void of any understanding of where a lot of the kids come from and is really the 1950s mentality I like to make fun of. Most people in this country have zero idea how poor many of the families the kids playing college football really are. Many players would have to take that $16,000 and give a lot of it to maybe his single mother on welfare so she can take care of her other children. Any kid who loved his mother and fellow siblings would do everything he could to help her. To pretend otherwise is silly.

Again, the answer isn't to pay the kid. The answer is to allow him to make a legal income as long as he keeps up with the most important thing in his life....football, and second....school work. As long as he is fulfilling those obligations in that order, he should be allowed to have a job.

$16,000 is a whole lot when you don't have any bills to pay.

[skip-zip]

They shouldn't be able to get "jobs" because of the obvious benefits they could receive at the bigger schools, therefore creating an unfair advantage in terms of recruiting.

And.....if these guys are so darn poor, and can't pay their bills, why do most of them look like they have thousands of dollars worth of tatoos on their body?

The big schools already have an unfair advantage in recruiting. You don't think $100 handshakes are discussed with recruits and their player/host during their recruiting visit? You don't think that tosu is better able to line up more attractive girls for guys on visits than Akron? You don't think they are all being offered more money to go to tosu than say Akron? You don't think that a recruit walking into a 100,000 seat stadium in Ann Arbor is more impressed than one walking into InfoCision? Please, please, please stop creating illusions for yourself.

They get the tatoos because they are forced into a type of black market that forces them to break antiquated ncaa rules in order to get what they need or want. When they break the ncaa rules by taking money under the table, they are also breaking real tax laws. How is that good for college football and the players playing. If people really wanted to protect the players, they would allow them to make money in the open in a legal manner.

I'm well aware of the advantages that already exist. I don't think anyone who's involved in college athletics has any illusion that it doesn't exist, so you can spare us all since you're preaching to the choir.

But, does that mean we should stop enforcing the rules, or worse yet, create more avenues for potential disadvantages, such as a phantom "job"?

Like a colleague of mine always says, whenever you open the door to something you're inviting abuse. And that statement can't be anymore relevant than it is in the game of recruiting college athletes. I'm sure people have wishful thoughts about how an "athletes with jobs" situation could work. And pages and pages of rules would be written to regulate it. But in the real world, would you really expect it to work as intended? If so, you're incredibly naive.

I'm a Zips fan. We face too many challenges already when it comes to competing with the big schools for athletes. And for us to have the best chance for success, we don't need to see more opportunities created that can easily be manipulated to the advantage of the big schools.

Beyond that, there's thousands of examples every year of kids who played college sports on scholarship, did well in the classroom, graduated, and thanked God that they were a good enough athlete to get their college paid for. It's a gift that most of us do not have access to. So, I'm tired of hearing that it's not good enough. If that's not good enough......then they shouldn't accept the scholarship offer. Plenty of people will feel fortunate to be able to take their place.

[GP1]

$16,000 is a whole lot when you don't have any bills to pay.

What if your family needs the money to pay for rent and food?

[GP1]

But, to answer your question, there are three choices as it relates to "unjust" rules against college student football players taking home more loot:

1. Accept the rules as part of the total equation that "life's not fair," move on with your life and find a way to legally get your share of life's loot within the current system.

2. Break the rules, pocket the cheater's loot and accept the consequences if you get caught.

3. Change the system by convincing the public and the courts that there's a fairer system with fewer flaws that will generally benefit the public more than the current system.

All you have done is define the current state of affairs that isn't working.

1. The life is not fair argument so swallow the crap you are fed because the rules are such you can't change them is not working and hasn't worked for decades...if ever.

2. The rules are being broken every day. We now have a system where a kid has to understand a 400+ page compliance manual from the ncaa in order to keep from breaking the rules. More rules aren't the answer. More bureaucracy isn't the answer. More compliance officers are not the answer. More ncaa enforcement officers is not the answer.

3. I think the public is coming around to the fact the ncaa needs massive change to reform itself. If it doesn't, others are going to step in and do so.

When a kid goes to college, aren't we asking that person to expand their mind by asking questions? If I was poor kid playing college football, the following questions would enter my mind:

1. How much money does the school make off of my likeness?

2. How much money does the school make off of the tickets sold to watch me play?

3. How much are they making in alumni donations because of me?

4. Is the value of my scholarship in proportion to the amount of money they are making off of me?

5. Why can't I just have a job?

These are just a few of the questions.

The problem with the ncaa is the rules applied to the student athletes are not there to lift that person up. They are there to keep that person down. Let's have rules that lift a person up in lieu of keeping them down.