MAC Renegotiating with ESPN?

[johnnyzip84]

There is some discussion about halfway down this EA story in the PD.

Potential good news: might be able to close the gap with the football-less WAC (how did they get a $4 million dollar deal, anyway?).

Potential bad news: more pressure to play weeknight football games

[lance99]

There is some discussion about halfway down this EA story in the PD.

Potential good news: might be able to close the gap with the football-less WAC (how did they get a $4 million dollar deal, anyway?).

Potential bad news: more pressure to play weeknight football games

IMO, play the games, but only if the price is right

[GP1]

IMO, play the games, but only if the price is right

Play in the spring and be in a better position to negotiate price with multiple networks. It's all or nothing with ESPN, screw that.

[GP1]

IMO, play the games, but only if the price is right

Play in the spring and be in a better position to negotiate price with multiple networks. It's all or nothing with ESPN, screw that.

[legendofzippy]

There is some discussion about halfway down this EA story in the PD.

Potential good news: might be able to close the gap with the football-less WAC (how did they get a $4 million dollar deal, anyway?).

Potential bad news: more pressure to play weeknight football games

I don't mind the weeknight games, but I wonder what the overall feeling is there.

I mean, it's not ideal, but it gives the MAC good exposure. With the larger conferences hosting more mid-afternoon and evening Saturday games, there's no room for a MAC game to be featured on a Saturday anymore. So at least the weeknight games put the conference in front of people. In the end I think it's good for recruiting.

In the end, money will do the talking anyway. And the money wants us on weeknights.

[GP1]

I mean, it's not ideal, but it gives the MAC good exposure.

So at least the weeknight games put the conference in front of people. In the end I think it's good for recruiting.

In the end, money will do the talking anyway.

I respectfully disagree with your point...one that has been made many times on this board.

Weeknight ESPN games are HORRIBLE exposure. Between the laughably bad attendance at many of these games and them basically being a vehicle for ESPN pimping their upcoming weekend line-up, it is a disaster for the MAC.

Recruiting? Please see the point I just made. If I'm a recruit watching a game on ESPN in front of a 3/4 empty stadium, I want nothing to do with that school or the league they play in unless I have no other alternative. If the MAC is recruiting kids with no other alternative, then disgracing schools on Tuesday night ESPN football is a bad direction, because we were going to get the kids anyhow.

You are right about money doing the talking. It will. The MAC will make a fool of itself again in the name of money and agree to $306K per school to continue to televise the ongoing disaster. Congratulations to the MAC Commissioner and ADs...all of you represent the kind of small minded thinking worthy of Tuesday night ESPN football.

ESPN is not a friend of MAClike conferences. They see us as a $25 hooker that will allow any John to do anything he wants just so we can get enough money to survive and the ADs can hope to escape the life ASAP. Good grief, this is a bad league.

[OU Dude]

Frank Solich laughs mightily at the assertion that weeknight games are bad for recruiting. Ohio has not played a Saturday game in November, home or away, since 2009 and their recruiting classes continue to improve, not in spite of it, but because of it. it should also be noted that Ohio has averaged 9 wins/yr since 2009 as well. The coaching staff regularly credits Ohio playing on weeknight TV as a huge selling point to recruits who see it as a positive.

Overall attendance for Ohio has trended upwards as well, since 2009 weeknight home games have had an avg attendance of 16,534. Last year the avg was 17,956.

Only bitter MAC fans see MACtion as a "disgrace" and an "embarrassment". The media and the avg Joe Football Fan speak of MACtion fondly. In fact the word MACtion is often used as a reference to any game that is high scoring and exciting, not one that is mocked for being "embarrassing". The games are played (mostly) in small college towns on a chilly weeknight in the Midwest in the middle of November, nobody is expecting 50K fans to be packing our stadiums.

Keep this in mind regarding these renegotiation talks- we're 4 years into an 8 year deal with ESPN, they don't have to do squat if they don't want to. But the fact that they are willing to open it up for talks half way through the deal shows that there is a value to our programming and they are willing to discuss paying more for it. That's a positive step in the right direction.

[LZIp]

Frank Solich laughs mightily at the assertion that weeknight games are bad for recruiting. Ohio has not played a Saturday game in November, home or away, since 2009 and their recruiting classes continue to improve, not in spite of it, but because of it. it should also be noted that Ohio has averaged 9 wins/yr since 2009 as well. The coaching staff regularly credits Ohio playing on weeknight TV as a huge selling point to recruits who see it as a positive.

Overall attendance for Ohio has trended upwards as well, since 2009 weeknight home games have had an avg attendance of 16,534. Last year the avg was 17,956.

Only bitter MAC fans see MACtion as a "disgrace" and an "embarrassment". The media and the avg Joe Football Fan speak of MACtion fondly. In fact the word MACtion is often used as a reference to any game that is high scoring and exciting, not one that is mocked for being "embarrassing". The games are played (mostly) in small college towns on a chilly weeknight in the Midwest in the middle of November, nobody is expecting 50K fans to be packing our stadiums.

Keep this in mind regarding these renegotiation talks- we're 4 years into an 8 year deal with ESPN, they don't have to do squat if they don't want to. But the fact that they are willing to open it up for talks half way through the deal shows that there is a value to our programming and they are willing to discuss paying more for it. That's a positive step in the right direction.

Well said.

[GP1]

Frank Solich laughs mightily at the assertion that weeknight games are bad for recruiting. Ohio has not played a Saturday game in November, home or away, since 2009 and their recruiting classes continue to improve, not in spite of it, but because of it. it should also be noted that Ohio has averaged 9 wins/yr since 2009 as well. The coaching staff regularly credits Ohio playing on weeknight TV as a huge selling point to recruits who see it as a positive.

Overall attendance for Ohio has trended upwards as well, since 2009 weeknight home games have had an avg attendance of 16,534. Last year the avg was 17,956.

Only bitter MAC fans see MACtion as a "disgrace" and an "embarrassment". The media and the avg Joe Football Fan speak of MACtion fondly. In fact the word MACtion is often used as a reference to any game that is high scoring and exciting, not one that is mocked for being "embarrassing". The games are played (mostly) in small college towns on a chilly weeknight in the Midwest in the middle of November, nobody is expecting 50K fans to be packing our stadiums.

Keep this in mind regarding these renegotiation talks- we're 4 years into an 8 year deal with ESPN, they don't have to do squat if they don't want to. But the fact that they are willing to open it up for talks half way through the deal shows that there is a value to our programming and they are willing to discuss paying more for it. That's a positive step in the right direction.

I would be hesitant to connect the dots between ESPN weeknight games and winning. OU is getting better recruits because they are winning and not because of ESPN. Our basketball team is better for the same reasons. The mother of a now former player said as much on this board. First and foremost, kids want to win. It is a mistake to believe ESPN holds the keys to success for teams. Teams make their own success. Why in the world would Solich give credit to ESPN and not his excellent coaching? Solich is a great MAC coach with a great recruiting philosophy that includes finding the best kids who are going to fall through the cracks at BCS schools, not a product of ESPN. I can't believe an OU fan would even give a little credit to ESPN.

If OU was as good as they are now and played on the weekends, they would have much better attendance than they currently do because more people could attend games in Athens. I've been to games in Athens when they were good and playing on the weekends. Each time, the stadium has been near full, if not completely full. It is a great place to see a college football game on a Saturday afternoon when they are good.

I would say the word MACtion is used to describe both high scoring games and the embarrassment of some of these Tuesday night games. Most people around the country couldn't name four MAC schools. My guess is they don't say anything bad about it because it is like watching the runt of a litter fight for the last spot on tit row...pathetic, but still sort of cute. It's more sympathy than respect.

ESPN may be renegotiating because there is nothing else to put on TV in the fall on Tuesday night. They see a sucker in the MAC and will easily pick their pocket at rock bottom prices.

[legendofzippy]

I'll stick by saying the exposure is good. Let's say you take those games away - at that point the MAC basically isn't on TV anymore. So let's so you're a recruit choosing between a top MAC team and a lower-level Big 10 team. With the lower-level Big 10 team, you're guaranteed to be on TV multiple times. Even if it's just BTN games, it's a large audience plus you get shown in repeats. But with the MAC, you get no TV exposure unless you make a bowl game. That's a tough sell in a recruit's living room.

But the weeknight games level the playing field. Yeah it stinks to play on a Tuesday night, but this country is so football crazed that lots of people do watch those games.

Recruiting is brutally tough, so any edge you can get, take it. The MAC has done a great job in finding edges recently. And they have a BCS game and #1 overall pick to show for it.

[K92]

I would watch a MAC game on ESPN every weeknight for the entire conference season and be happy with it as long as the Zips played all their home games on Saturday afternoons.

[ZachTheZip]

This group of schools will have a TV contract worth more than $1 million per school per year. Keep in mind that the MAC's current contract is worth 1/10th of that:

Alabama-Birmingham, Charlotte, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Middle Tennessee, North Texas, Old Dominion, Rice, Southern Miss, Texas-El Paso, Texas-San Antonio, and Western Kentucky.

If the MAC can't negotiate something better than what that jumble of cast-offs and wannabes receives, after coming off of a BCS appearance and having four different teams in the top-25 during the season (Ohio, Toledo, Can't, NIU), the entire MAC front office should be replaced.

[GP1]

Let's say you take those games away - at that point the MAC basically isn't on TV anymore.

Not true. Just about any game can be viewed now because of products like ESPN3, or whatever it is called and the ability of fans to watch games via internet. I can watch games on Saturdays via Direct TV that would never make ESPNanything. Television as we know it today is slowly but surely going to become part of the past as there are more and more methods of watching events. My wife works at a company with a lot of really young recent college graduates. You all might be surprised at the number of them who don't have a television and watch programming on the internet on a regular basis.

[GP1]

This group of schools will have a TV contract worth more than $1 million per school per year. Keep in mind that the MAC's current contract is worth 1/10th of that:

Alabama-Birmingham, Charlotte, Florida Atlantic, Florida International, Louisiana Tech, Marshall, Middle Tennessee, North Texas, Old Dominion, Rice, Southern Miss, Texas-El Paso, Texas-San Antonio, and Western Kentucky.

If the MAC can't negotiate something better than what that jumble of cast-offs and wannabes receives, after coming off of a BCS appearance and having four different teams in the top-25 during the season (Ohio, Toledo, Can't, NIU), the entire MAC front office should be replaced.

"Cast-offs and wannabes"? Are you sure you aren't talking MACtion? The league above has better teams at the top, in the middle and in the sewer than the MAC (please exclude UNCC from my comment).

Quality of existing product is more important than what real or imaginary accomplishments are out there. Nobody says, "Let's watch the Akron vs. WMU game because NIU was in a BCS game last year." (one they got run out of the stadium in). Getting into the Top 25 is an opinion of others and not basis for real results.

or

"Let's buy some pizza and beer and watch that EMU team. I want to grade out their left tackle and send my recommendations to the Browns."

My point is, the MAC had one good year after several not so good years. If you are a network, the bad bet is betting on the MAC to continue to be good.

The MAC could probably get a raise up to around $700K per team. The sad part is, for every dollar increase, the morons who run the athletic departments will increase spending on the "building process" $2 million.

[LZIp]

The MAC has actually had 2 good seasons in a row.

[ZachTheZip]

"Cast-offs and wannabes"? Are you sure you aren't talking MACtion? The league above has better teams at the top, in the middle and in the sewer than the MAC (please exclude UNCC from my comment).

Quality of existing product is more important than what real or imaginary accomplishments are out there. Nobody says, "Let's watch the Akron vs. WMU game because NIU was in a BCS game last year." (one they got run out of the stadium in). Getting into the Top 25 is an opinion of others and not basis for real results.

or

"Let's buy some pizza and beer and watch that EMU team. I want to grade out their left tackle and send my recommendations to the Browns."

My point is, the MAC had one good year after several not so good years. If you are a network, the bad bet is betting on the MAC to continue to be good.

The MAC could probably get a raise up to around $700K per team. The sad part is, for every dollar increase, the morons who run the athletic departments will increase spending on the "building process" $2 million.

They're better in basketball, but that doesn't drive TV contracts. That group is worse than the MAC. Three FCS call-ups, nobody any potential of becoming a BCS-buster candidate. It's the MAC, but with more FCS teams and less top-25 teams. How is that better?

[OU Dude]

I would be hesitant to connect the dots between ESPN weeknight games and winning. OU is getting better recruits because they are winning and not because of ESPN. Our basketball team is better for the same reasons. The mother of a now former player said as much on this board. First and foremost, kids want to win. It is a mistake to believe ESPN holds the keys to success for teams. Teams make their own success. Why in the world would Solich give credit to ESPN and not his excellent coaching? Solich is a great MAC coach with a great recruiting philosophy that includes finding the best kids who are going to fall through the cracks at BCS schools, not a product of ESPN. I can't believe an OU fan would even give a little credit to ESPN.

Here is an article quoting Solich -"Solich said you can't overestimate the effect it's had among recruits, both in Ohio, the breadbasket of MAC recruiting, and across the nation. Solich began rattling off the home states of his players, from California to Oklahoma to New York to Florida. He said TV helps in Ohio, too." You can keep saying that playing on ESPN does not help with recruiting, but that doesn't make it true. Yes, winning is part of the equation, but it's not one without the other, as you claim.

If OU was as good as they are now and played on the weekends, they would have much better attendance than they currently do because more people could attend games in Athens. I've been to games in Athens when they were good and playing on the weekends. Each time, the stadium has been near full, if not completely full. It is a great place to see a college football game on a Saturday afternoon when they are good.

Does attendance take a dip on weeknights? Sure, some. But is the amount significant? Even with Ohio playing 2/6 home games on weeknights their avg attendance for 2012 was 21,844 in a stadium with a capacity of 24,000. Ohio was tops in the MAC in attendance and set a MAC record for ticket revenue. The small drop off in attendance for the weeknight games is hardly noticed.

I would say the word MACtion is used to describe both high scoring games and the embarrassment of some of these Tuesday night games. Most people around the country couldn't name four MAC schools. My guess is they don't say anything bad about it because it is like watching the runt of a litter fight for the last spot on tit row...pathetic, but still sort of cute. It's more sympathy than respect.

Weeknight games have made the MAC more favorable to the casual observer, not less. There is no such thing as sympathy in college football. If there was our alumni would be at our stadiums on game day and not in Columbus.

ESPN may be renegotiating because there is nothing else to put on TV in the fall on Tuesday night. They see a sucker in the MAC and will easily pick their pocket at rock bottom prices.

Pick our pocket? So you think ESPN agreed to reopen negotiations with 4 years left on our contract as a way to pay LESS money? You're so set on being bitter and playing the scorned victim you're not even making since now. I'm not saying the MAC will get paid a fair amount but it will be more, and that's a step in the right direction.

[Dave in Green]

@OU Dude, I really like your citation of quotes, facts and numbers to back your opinion. One thing I'm curious about is that you say that there's a "small drop off in attendance for the weeknight games." Could you be a little more specific about exactly how much attendance is down for weeknight games? It's certainly understandable that fewer fans can make it to weeknight games as opposed to weekend games. But if the drop off isn't too great, and if the coaching staff is convinced that the weeknight TV has a positive effect on recruiting, then it might be a reasonable trade-off. For Zips fans in particular, it would also be interesting to know Coach Bowden's opinion on this. Maybe George Thomas will read this and pose the question to Coach Bowden.

[LZIp]

@OU Dude, I really like your citation of quotes, facts and numbers to back your opinion. One thing I'm curious about is that you say that there's a "small drop off in attendance for the weeknight games." Could you be a little more specific about exactly how much attendance is down for weeknight games? It's certainly understandable that fewer fans can make it to weeknight games as opposed to weekend games. But if the drop off isn't too great, and if the coaching staff is convinced that the weeknight TV has a positive effect on recruiting, then it might be a reasonable trade-off. For Zips fans in particular, it would also be interesting to know Coach Bowden's opinion on this. Maybe George Thomas will read this and pose the question to Coach Bowden.

Overall attendance for Ohio has trended upwards as well, since 2009 weeknight home games have had an avg attendance of 16,534. Last year the avg was 17,956

looks to be about ~18% drop off if my math is correct. But the numbers are still good overall, and you are getting much more exposure than you would on the weekend.

Then the question would be does the ESPN deal plus the amount of national exposure you are getting make up the 18% difference you are missing out on attendance, which is most certainly does. Its not ideal for the fan of the school, but from a business standpoint, it makes sense.

[Dave in Green]

..... Its not ideal for the fan of the school, but from a business standpoint, it makes sense.

Bingo! Crunch the numbers and do what's in the overall best interests of the school from a business standpoint. I'd just add that it's important to consider the long-term as well as the short-term interests. It does no good to get a brief short-term uptick if it's followed by a long-term downtick. Trying to analyze the math, some fans may prefer staying home and watching on TV if that's an option. If they're season ticketholders, they've already bought and paid for their tickets, whether they show up or not. So the direct, immediate loss would be in walk-up ticket sales and lost concession sales. If the TV helps recruiting, better recruiting results in more wins, and more wins results in more paying fans, there's a great long-term business case to be made for that investment.

[akzipper]

The MAC has actually had 2 good seasons in a row.

Exactly and we've seen that it's very possible for any team to get into a BCS game. So this throws the "play in the spring" logic out the window. I have no problem with trying to get exposure playing on a Wednesday, Thursday, or even Friday night. But separating ourselves from the highest level of college football would be pointless. People call me negative, but I have hope that brighter days are ahead for our football and basketball programs. Moving down and giving up should not be an option.

[OU Dude]

@OU Dude, I really like your citation of quotes, facts and numbers to back your opinion. One thing I'm curious about is that you say that there's a "small drop off in attendance for the weeknight games." Could you be a little more specific about exactly how much attendance is down for weeknight games? It's certainly understandable that fewer fans can make it to weeknight games as opposed to weekend games. But if the drop off isn't too great, and if the coaching staff is convinced that the weeknight TV has a positive effect on recruiting, then it might be a reasonable trade-off. For Zips fans in particular, it would also be interesting to know Coach Bowden's opinion on this. Maybe George Thomas will read this and pose the question to Coach Bowden.

Thanks Dave. There's been some discussion of how to quantify this better over on the OU board and as you can guess its not easy to do. Its hard to put an exact number on what the effects of team record and November weather would have. One poster on the OU board pulled the attendance for all of Ohio's home games in the Solich era, home games played on weeknights are marked bold-

2012__ 2011__ 2010__ 2009__ 2008__ 2007__ 2006__ 2005

25,893 24,244 22,955 24,616 19,938 19,823 19,409 24,545

25,542 23,155 21,645 20,188 18,268 18,297 18,546 21,034

23,673 23,146 19,855 17,968 15,018 17,031 15,631 17,959

20,044 17,490 19,455 16,018 13,114 16,781 15,026 16,721

19,122 17,155 15,255 14,756 10,042 15,632 15,010 9,908

16,789 14,155 15,112 14,135* ----- 11,438 --------- ---------

Sorry, it didn't paste with the correct spacing but I think you can get the idea. Each column is a year and each year is stacked from highest attendance to lowest, not chronologically. You can see that once the MACtion games started in 2009 that they were usually the lowest attended but were within a respectable range of the lowest Saturday game, in my opinion.

Compare that with the overall attendance averages over the same time frame-

2005 (4-7) - 18,033 (was 16,406 not including Pitt game)

2006 (9-5) - 16,724

2007 (6-6) - 16,500

2008 (4-8) - 15,276

2009 (9-5) - 17,947

2010 (8-5) - 19,046

2011 (10-4) - 19,891

2012 (9-4) - 21,844

The team record is listed next to the year which supports the previous comments about winning having a positive impact on attendance. But also notice the positive trending the last 4 years in the avg overall attendance and the avg MACtion attendance.

When I said the drop off in attendance was small I was speaking more subjectively than objectively. An attendance variance of a few thousand is hardly noticed in bigger conferences but it can feel like a massive number in the MAC. I tend to look at that size of variance as minimal, others may see it differently and I can understand why.

Side note- it will be interesting to see if there is a culture shift at Ohio and how that affects both students and alumni. In the 20 years prior to Solich Ohio avg 3.05 wins/yr and went to 0 bowls. That's an entire generation of alums whose football experience involved going to Peden to watch the Marching 110 and then leaving. Compare that to the students who just graduated, they saw their team avg 9 wins/yr and went bowling every year. Add on top of that 4 years of DJ Cooper and Co. I don't know what, if any, long term effects it may have but it will be interesting to see.

Akron is in a place where they have to do a lot of heavy lifting without much payoff but once the momentum gets moving I think Bowden will get the ball rolling. You've already got the top notch stadium and the success on the bball court, when the Zips start winning on the gridiron it will be huge for your school and for the conference.

[GP1]

Yes, winning is part of the equation, but it's not one without the other, as you claim.

Wow, you still seem to give as much credit to TV as Solich's excellent coaching. Winning is the primary reason for playing games. Solich does an excellent job of taking MAC talent and molding it into a very good football team. It's too bad a Zips fan has to do the job of defending the OU coach.

Where I would give credit to TV for some success of OU would be playing in the MAC Championship and bowl games. Winning puts teams on TV in big games so the winning is more important that the TV aspect.

Which statement to a recruit would carry more weight?:

1. Watch us on TV this coming Tuesday against Buffalo.

2. Watch us on TV this coming Friday as we play for the MAC Championship.

I'm going with #2.

[GP1]

Pick our pocket? So you think ESPN agreed to reopen negotiations with 4 years left on our contract as a way to pay LESS money? I'm not saying the MAC will get paid a fair amount but it will be more, and that's a step in the right direction.

I actually agree they will pay less than fair market value, which isn't a good thing for the MAC. Do you think the BCS conferences would accept less than fair market value? MAC schools will have more money, but the bigger schools will have proportionally more money and the downward spin of the non-BCS schools continues. The ESPN game is a dead end game for the MAC. Unfortunately, the question is posed as an either/or one for the league and that is the beginning of the downward spiral.

There are far more creative ways for non-BCS leagues to make money, get meaningful exposure and be successful. The only path the conferences seem to take now is to play a couple of BCS teams a year to guarantee two losses and to sell their souls to ESPN. I'm still at a loss as to how that is a good thing. Maybe someone could do a better job of explaining it to me that I have seen so far on this topic.

I'm not bitter about how the MAC runs things...It pisses me off to no end and there is a difference between being pissed off and bitter. It pisses me of the league openly negotiates failure and tries to pass it off as success. It should piss every MAC fan off.

[GP1]

Then the question would be does the ESPN deal plus the amount of national exposure you are getting make up the 18% difference you are missing out on attendance, which is most certainly does.

What evidence is there that it does? I see a lot of junk math (sample sizes are too small to be relevant) being thrown around on this topic along with a statement from one coach who is too humble to say what a good coach he is.

ESPN has been a curse to non-BCS programs and nobody seems to see it.