Zip_ME87 Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 I'd like to say also that Friday was the first time I have spoken with Dr. Scarborough. I was pleased that he was mingling and talking with anyone at the reception who wanted to talk with him. I appreciated speaking with him.Also, it turned out that his Investiture was anything but boring. He wanted it to be a celebration of The University of Akron, and it was. Kudos to him and those who organized it. I learned things from the ceremony and his investiture speech that I did not know about UA, its symbols, and its contributions to the nation and the world. If Dr. Scarborough's actions match the words in his speech, UA is in great hands. He could match or even exceed the accomplishments of the previous president. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZZZips Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 ME_87......Did you get to sit next to the Scarborough family at the Tulsa game? When I saw Dr. Scarborough go to the concession stand during the 2nd half, I thought he might be getting something for you. Glad to hear you enjoyed the Investiture. I would still like to see UA get a shot at the Browns camp. Hopefully the Columbus deal discussions go sour. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 ME_87......Did you get to sit next to the Scarborough family at the Tulsa game? When I saw Dr. Scarborough go to the concession stand during the 2nd half, I thought he might be getting something for you. Glad to hear you enjoyed the Investiture. I would still like to see UA get a shot at the Browns camp. Hopefully the Columbus deal discussions go sour. Might have been nice, but no. I was in my usual front row seat and focused on the match and players. I didn't even notice Dr. Scarborough and his family were there. I'm happy to hear they were. As soon as I can get it in a shape to post and remember how to post a pdf, I'll provide the UA public records officer's response to my public records inquiry. There's a couple of items in there that I find troubling as far as planning or lack thereof and soliciting endorsements for Browns training camp. They're public records, you're all entitled to see them. Sorry for the delay. They have some personal information of mine on them, and I need time to remove that properly before I post in a public forum. I'll mention my concerns when I post. Certainly I welcome everyone's thoughts on the materials, my concerns, and the UA responses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 21, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 UA's Public Records Response is attached as I promised.I’ll start with item #1. I agree that the proposal itself is “competition sensitive” or “trade secret”, however UA wants to label it. I didn’t request to see the proposal. I requested to see the cost-benefit analysis. I sent a follow-up e-mail to the UA public records officers pointing out and clarifying my request. I haven’t heard back on that yet. If a cost-benefit analysis exists, can it be considered a “trade secret” based upon the case law quoted. I don’t know, I’m not a lawyer. If Mike Rasor still reads threads on this forum, perhaps he could bring to bear his UA law degree and provide us his legal opinion. Otherwise, I informed them that I would check with the Ohio Attorney General’s Office if I didn’t get a satisfactory answer. The Ohio Attorney General provides “mediation” in public records disputes for the State of Ohio. Given that Browns Training Camp is going to Columbus, I may not follow up on this, but it might be nice to know for future inquiries.Items 4 and 5. The fact that there are no documents responsive to these requests indicates to me that UA has not quantified these items. How can they know what costs might be involved, regardless of who covers those expenditures, if they haven’t analyzed what could happen? A diligent organization performs a risk assessment that includes potential expenditures that may be incurred before entering into a binding contract/agreement. It is necessary to understand potential effects to the bottom line.Items 7 and 8. I don’t understand how the yearly economic impact to the local area and listing of benefits to The University of Akron, if these documents exist, are trade secrets. Like item #1, I’m not a lawyer. Perhaps I should check these with the Ohio Attorney general’s Office also if I further explore the response to item 1.Items 2, 3, 6, and 10. When I made the request, I expected the response or similar to that which I received, but I thought I’d try anyway. I have no issue with UA’s response to these items.Item 9. The letter from UA requesting endorsements states specifically, “… As you may know, the Cleveland Browns are considering locating their training camp at The University of Akron’s Infocision Stadium-Summa Field (IS-SF) and have issued a Request for Proposals as part of this process. …” Specific mention of IS-SF and no mention of First Energy Stadium-Cub Cadet Field or any other UA facility. This was likely not intentional, but rather an oversight. However, I’ve heard from two independent, well-connected sources that at least one local leader (sorry I don’t feel that I can give his name since I haven’t spoken with him), was angered by this omission and threatened to pull his endorsement. He may have done so; I don’t know. You can tell me this is “hearsay” because I won’t name the sources or the local leader. Unfortunately, I’m not at liberty to post that information here as I was in the case of mentioning Dr. Scarborough’s information that the training camp is going to Columbus. You’ll have to decide for yourself if I’ve provided enough credible information along the way to believe that my sources are indeed knowledgeable. I would also ask that if this local leader was indeed upset over this omission, did UA permanently damage their relationship with this person? Did they damage their relationship with anyone else who provided his/her endorsement? If FES-CCF were to be used by the Browns, what other existing relationships, financial and influential, could UA damage? Did UA consider this? Did they figure it into the equation of potential gains versus potential losses?Sorry for this long post, but it illustrates nothing in life is a “no-brainer”. There are always trade offs. Some decisions are simply less involved than others. Entering into a contract/agreement with the Cleveland Browns or any party requires due diligence, and not just throwing together a proposal in 2 weeks because it seems like a good idea. A lot of good ideas turn out to not be as good as they appear on the surface. Remember the contract with Football Head Coach Ianello and how UA could have been on the hook for a significant financial burden even though he had been relieved of his duties. I’d hate to have to clean up a mess like that again. Thank goodness other parties intervened and hired him, alleviating UA of that or most of it. I hope our AD sent thank you gifts to the Kansas AD along with his condolences to their students, alumni, and fans. Browns training camp at UA sounds like a good idea to me, too, but as a UA alumnus and donor, and an Ohio resident and taxpayer, I demand due diligence which I don’t see with this proposal. I don’t want a football team practicing on Cub Cadet Field, but this goes well beyond that.Dr. Scarborough, in his Investiture speech, mentioned the value of public universities (better than the Harvards and other universities who only take the top 10%) because it is their mission to give everyone an opportunity at the American dream of bettering our lives. An education at The University of Akron teaches a student to think critically allowing him/her to wade through the bombardment of information he/she encounters daily and decipher what matters. In this debate on ZN.o I've realized the power that we have as Ohio residents. UA's leaders, as employees of a public institution, owe us answers. They possess some data that is not publicly discernable, but much of what they possess is. Don't wait for the ABJ if you have a substantial concern. Public records have to be provided to us as Ohio residents and taxpayers.Browns TC - UA PR Response.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted September 21, 2014 Report Share Posted September 21, 2014 Zip_ME87, you've obviously put some time and effort into doing this the right way, and I commend you for the way you've gone about it with UA. I won't try to address all of your points and answer all of your questions, but I'll comment on a few of them.Most or all of the data in an active competitive bid process could be considered "trade secrets" based on the case laws cited in the response. Our uneducated opinions are pretty irrelevant on that. You'd need to consult an attorney with experience in that area for an educated opinion. It likely comes down to fine legal technicalities.The request from the Browns may have been for a preliminary bid that did not require all details to be provided in the initial bid. The Browns may have stipulated that once finalists were selected that details would be negotiated on an individual basis depending on final disposition of exactly what facilities and fields might be used.The above point is supported by UA's letter to entities requesting support for the concept of moving the Browns training camp to the Akron area. Specifically, the letter states that time is short because the Browns established an Aug. 15 deadline for submitting bids. Therefore, it's unrealistic to expect UA to produce more than 2 weeks of analysis when they were only given 2 weeks to submit an initial bid. It makes sense not to provide details that you haven't had time to thoroughly analyze due to the short deadline with the understanding that these would be negotiated to the satisfaction of both parties at a later date. Should both sides not be able to negotiate a mutually beneficial final agreement, UA would be free to withdraw its preliminary bid.You are correct not to name a private source without that source's express permission. It's a cardinal rule of professional journalism, and is a good ethical rule for all to follow. Violating the confidence of a private source results in loss of confidence and trust in one's character. The other side of the coin is that some people try to bluff that they have a solid source who they can't name. If you get caught in that, you also lose confidence and trust from others. I have no reason to doubt that you are being honest about having a good source. What neither you nor anyone else can really tell is if you are being fed only information that suits one agenda. That's why good journalists rely on multiple sources to get the whole story.I suspect the Browns have probably received more unsolicited offers than just the publicized one from Columbus. There may be a surprising number of both public and private entities who believe they can make a strong economic case for hosting Browns training camp. In that heated bidding atmosphere, it's likely that the Browns would be negotiating from a position of power and might make greater demands that would lessen the value that UA and Akron might otherwise get out of the deal. Reading between the lines from your discussion with Dr. Scarborough, he likely has access to more detailed feedback. His reputation for having a strong business acumen would lead him to the conclusion that UA should not and would not enter into a disadvantageous business arrangement with the Browns. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Zip_ME87, you've obviously put some time and effort into doing this the right way, and I commend you for the way you've gone about it with UA. I won't try to address all of your points and answer all of your questions, but I'll comment on a few of them.Most or all of the data in an active competitive bid process could be considered "trade secrets" based on the case laws cited in the response. Our uneducated opinions are pretty irrelevant on that. You'd need to consult an attorney with experience in that area for an educated opinion. It likely comes down to fine legal technicalities.The request from the Browns may have been for a preliminary bid that did not require all details to be provided in the initial bid. The Browns may have stipulated that once finalists were selected that details would be negotiated on an individual basis depending on final disposition of exactly what facilities and fields might be used.The above point is supported by UA's letter to entities requesting support for the concept of moving the Browns training camp to the Akron area. Specifically, the letter states that time is short because the Browns established an Aug. 15 deadline for submitting bids. Therefore, it's unrealistic to expect UA to produce more than 2 weeks of analysis when they were only given 2 weeks to submit an initial bid. It makes sense not to provide details that you haven't had time to thoroughly analyze due to the short deadline with the understanding that these would be negotiated to the satisfaction of both parties at a later date. Should both sides not be able to negotiate a mutually beneficial final agreement, UA would be free to withdraw its preliminary bid.You are correct not to name a private source without that source's express permission. It's a cardinal rule of professional journalism, and is a good ethical rule for all to follow. Violating the confidence of a private source results in loss of confidence and trust in one's character. The other side of the coin is that some people try to bluff that they have a solid source who they can't name. If you get caught in that, you also lose confidence and trust from others. I have no reason to doubt that you are being honest about having a good source. What neither you nor anyone else can really tell is if you are being fed only information that suits one agenda. That's why good journalists rely on multiple sources to get the whole story.I suspect the Browns have probably received more unsolicited offers than just the publicized one from Columbus. There may be a surprising number of both public and private entities who believe they can make a strong economic case for hosting Browns training camp. In that heated bidding atmosphere, it's likely that the Browns would be negotiating from a position of power and might make greater demands that would lessen the value that UA and Akron might otherwise get out of the deal. Reading between the lines from your discussion with Dr. Scarborough, he likely has access to more detailed feedback. His reputation for having a strong business acumen would lead him to the conclusion that UA should not and would not enter into a disadvantageous business arrangement with the Browns.DiG...I agree with many of your points, but the problem with the letter soliciting support is that it specifically states Infocision Stadium-Summa Field only. UA should have simply said The University of Akron and left it at that. To state a specific facility leads one to believe that only that facility will be used. Not a good move when asking for an endorsement to make that kind of an omission. As I stated above, this time I have 2 independent, reliable sources who have told me they know this local leader was upset about that omission. Not good if UA damaged their relationship with this person and possibly others.Also, I sent a follow-up e-mail to Dr. Scarborough mentioning if somehow the Browns still decided to potentially come to UA that I hoped the UA proposal was non-binding and that UA would be able to negotiate a good agreement having had more time to consider what UA was getting into from all aspects. I totally agree with you.I've done more than I've written about here to understand UA's approach to this proposal, but it's hard to go into everything. This has gone on so long already, I'm sure most folks are bored with it and just want to move on especially if it's a moot subject with the Browns taking their training camp to Columbus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'd say that the odds of at least one local leader not getting bent out of shape over some element of a major proposal affecting the entire Akron area would be about the same as a post on ZN.o not getting at least one other forum member bent out of shape. I can't imagine UA or any other single entity putting together a major proposal on a tight deadline without some awkward wording slipping through and raising the hackles of someone. These things tend to blow over, so I don't think it's that big a deal in the overall scheme of things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I'd say that the odds of at least one local leader not getting bent out of shape over some element of a major proposal affecting the entire Akron area would be about the same as a post on ZN.o not getting at least one other forum member bent out of shape. I can't imagine UA or any other single entity putting together a major proposal on a tight deadline without some awkward wording slipping through and raising the hackles of someone. These things tend to blow over, so I don't think it's that big a deal in the overall scheme of things.When you're soliciting endorsements it's not wise or funny to make that kind of f up. Sorry, that borders on incompetent but that couldn't be, could it? We haven't seen anything at UA, especially related to athletics, that borders on incompetent have we? ROFLMAO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 At least someone at the ABJ gets it. KEEP OFF THE GRASS September 19, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LZIp Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Threatening for the Attorney General? Sorry, but you care way too much about an insignificant issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 At least someone at the ABJ gets it. KEEP OFF THE GRASS September 19, 2014OMG, Michael Douglas, the ABJ editorial page editor actually wrote the following:... Massive linemen would paw and rip at the turf. ...... Hard to believe even the projected $250,000 in rehab work would restore the condition.A condition, it should be noted, that did not come easily. Soccer fans remember how long it took for the new turf to take hold, players slipping as the field gave way. So, it won’t be just a year of coping. It promises to take two or three for full restoration. And that likely would put recruiting at risk, the program missing its shine and top players. ...I am in total awe of whoever sold this to the ABJ editorial page editor. A quarter of a million dollars and two to three years to restore a grass field in the first country to land men on the moon. Absolutely stunning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Threatening for the Attorney General? Sorry, but you care way too much about an insignificant issue."Threatening", really? There was no threat intended. I just want to know if what UA's lawyers told me is correct. I'd like to see the cost-benefit analysis. It takes an inordinate amount of time and effort to forward an e-mail to the Attorney General's Office and ask if UA's position is correct. All of 5 minutes while watching the evening news. Way too involved. EDIT: If it exists and is protected, and they want to get me off their backs, they could offer to let me see it in exchange for signing a non-disclosure agreement. I didn't ask for a copy of it. I asked to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 OMG, Michael Douglas, the ABJ editorial page editor actually wrote the following:I am in total awe of whoever sold this to the ABJ editorial page editor. A quarter of a million dollars and two to three years to restore a grass field in the first country to land men on the moon. Absolutely stunning.He's correct about the potential damage to Mens Soccer recruiting. But, that's ok. I recognize you and others don't care about a successful program at Akron. You haven't really read and understood my points about how important it is not to drive away supporters with significant influence and financial backing.I'd like to ask Dr. Scarborough if anyone leading the Athletics Department mentioned there might be an uproar about this. Dr. Scarborough is new to UA and deserves the insight and foresight of his team members, however much or little they might possess. If you think I'm among only a few concerned about this because only of a few of us are posting on ZN.o, you're living in a strangely skewed world.EDIT: The $250k figure came from UA, apparently without any analysis. Michael Douglas didn't make it up nor did anyone else have to submit it to him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 I am in total awe of whoever sold this to the ABJ editorial page editor. A quarter of a million dollars and two to three years to restore a grass field in the first country to land men on the moon. Absolutely stunning.Great use of hyperbole. Actually, the only country to land men on the moon. Our leaders were much more ingenius and visionary back in the 1960's and early 1970's. We depend on Russia, a country with whom we have strained relations, to take us to the ISS [international Space Station] these days. We can't even get people into low Earth orbit 300 or so miles up. And, you expect me to believe UA Athletics Department leaders have a plan to force grass to grow and take good root in 2 weeks and return our field to its current condition, withstanding a Fall Season without issue? ROFLMAO again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 No one here has shown me a convincing argument of the benefits of Browns Training Camp at UA. It's all been conjecture and gut feel. Eyes on campus, must be good. Branding and it will help attendance for Zips Football grow. How do you know that. Winning will help Zips Football attendance grow. You can see that from other successful football programs. Having eyes on campus doesn't necessarily do that. Some people who come to Browns camp may return to see a Zips Football game. if the Zips lay a turd on the field like they did this past Saturday, what's the likelihood of those people returning and how many of their friends are they going to tell how awful the Zips are. A large number of Browns fans coming to training camp will be Ohio State fans. Sorry, folks but that's just the way it is in O H I O. I hate it too, but they have all the bandwaggoners who never attended a class there and many who have probably never set foot on that campus in Columbus. How many of the tOSU-Browns fans are coming back for a Zips football game.Can't State is the only other D1 school of which I'm aware has hosted a Browns training camp. When I look at Can't State, why don't I see all of the wonderous things that did for them? Someone says they're out of this competition. Did they pull their proposal or did the Browns turn them down already? I didn't see that and no link was provided. If Can't State pulled their proposal why? Please somebody who really, truly wants the Browns at UA show me some hard evidence of what it will really do for UA?EDIT: Sorry, just realized I was incorrect. BGSU hosted the Browns as well, and I meant to say an NFL training camp. So, you have at least 2 places to get data, Can't State and BGSU. Given BG's campus, I'd suggest looking there for evidence that Browns Training Camp helped them. Can't State just doesn't seem to me like a good place to search for this kind of data and who wants to set foot on that campus if the Zips aren't playing there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 ... But, that's ok. I recognize you and others don't care about a successful program at Akron. ...That's odd. I thought you approved earlier in the thread when I said I understand the concern of Zips soccer fans and that no one should want to compromise the potential of UA's only national championship-winning athletic team. Maybe you thought that was my Good Twin and I'm the Evil Twin. What I'm astonished and amused by is the continuing full-scale assault, to the point of engaging the ABJ editorial page editor, on something that's not going to happen. The President of the University of Akron told you so to your face. Open warfare between various UA factions is not productive and not necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 That's odd. I thought you approved earlier in the thread when I said I understand the concern of Zips soccer fans and that no one should want to compromise the potential of UA's only national championship-winning athletic team. Maybe you thought that was my Good Twin and I'm the Evil Twin. What I'm astonished and amused by is the continuing full-scale assault, to the point of engaging the ABJ editorial page editor, on something that's not going to happen. The President of the University of Akron told you so to your face. Open warfare between various UA factions is not productive and not necessary.Yeah, your latest comments didn't seem consistent with your earlier comments. I thought perhaps someone else took over your account. I'm not sure I engaged the ABJ editorial page editor. I didn't contact him. His editorial just happened to be there and helped me point out that the use of Cub Cadet Field (CCF) for football practice shouldn't be shrugged off so easily whether it's the Browns or any other football team using it. Others share that opinion. It's not mine alone. My reference to that editorial had nothing to do with swaying whether the Browns come to UA for training camp or not. As you said, Dr. Scarborough put that to bed during my face-to-face conversation with him.As far as open warfare between various UA factions, I think I mentioned Zips Football. Go read the Football forum on ZN.o, and you'll find a number of posters talking about things that I raised, not about the use of CCF, but winning football games drawing fans and the disappointment in what we saw Saturday. As a Zips FB season ticket holder, I think I have the right to comment/complain like other Zips FB fans, especially when I bring people to a game trying to convince them to come back. Thanks Zips FB for that unhelpful performance. Browns fans on campus witnessing that could set the program back further. Word of mouth with their friends could be devastating. How about the Zips start winning consistently, then we get a bunch of new people to come see them with an ACME-Zip type one-time event like I suggested some time ago on the FB forum, I believe. Win then demonstrate to the masses that you're worth their time and money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 This just in from the UA public records officer...Mr. , no cost-benefit analysis document was created. Thus, I don’t have any additional documents to provide to you. Thanks, Scott CampbellScott M. CampbellThe University of AkronOffice of General CounselAssociate General Counsel andRecords Compliance OfficerBuchtel Hall, Suite 63Akron, Ohio 44325-4706smc4@uakron.edu330-972-7226 - Office330-612-5930 - CellFax - 330-384-2611Surprise, No cost-benefit analysis document was created. Not a trade secret as indicated in the response to my first request. It was NOT created. Nice. Well, at least I don't have to take that 5 minutes during the evening news to e-mail the State Attorney General. Wow, I'm glad they saved me from getting that involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 This has gone well beyond Cleveland Browns Training Camp coming to UA. Whether or not we agree on that and the use of First Energy Stadium-Cub Cadet Field, I hope you've seen enough herein as I have to understand how blunders like hiring Rob Ianello occur. How many blunders like that can we afford and ever get anywhere with the football program and fixing the budget issues? I can't imagine anyone seeing omissions and miscues like those apparent here and believing this to even come close to appearing as "a disciplined organization, with disciplined people engaged in disciplined thought and actions". I wish Dr. Scarborough the best in getting things aligned with his vision. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spin Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Soccer fans, wherever they are, don't even come close to the conceit of American football, basketball and baseball fans in this country.MLB Baseball: "World" Series...potentially Canada and the United States ; small World; League and fans full of themselves. At least Little League knows what a "World" series is.NBA Basketball: "World" Champions on their rings...again, potentially Canada and the United States ; small World; League and fans full of themselvesNFL Football: "World" Champions on their rings...solely teams in the United States; League and fans FULL of themselvesSoccer/Football World Cup: countries from North America, South America, Europe, Asia, Africa, and Australia. WORLD championshipIf I follow your logic, the Zips Football team should still be playing in the Rubber Bowl with no problem. What's a little adversity? I seem to recall TB and assistants saying they visited Akron before agreeing to sign contacts here. Once they saw the facilities, they felt UA was serious about football and wanting a winner. UA's football facilities are a great recruiting tool, if properly used by a competent coach like we now have and he has been doing. Why does the same not apply to our soccer team in some of your minds? Yeah, Louisville has better facilities just like Ohio State has better football facilities. But, our current soccer stadium is better than a significant number of others in Division 1 and is a recruiting tool for soccer. UA Mens Soccer shouldn't have to suffer because someone thinks that Browns Training Camp is good for UA. Does anyone have some evidence of the great things that Browns Training Camp did for Can't State when it was there in 1975-81, I believe? Can't State sucked in the 70's and it still sucks today. Please dispute that, with evidence.Seriously??? Do you really think Maccabi Tel Aviv belongs on the same court as the San Antonio Spurs??? Or Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles should play in the World Series??? And the Super Bowl should have included the Saskatchewan Rough Riders??? I've seen a LOT of hyperbole in this thread but this is downright hilarious. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fknbuflobo Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Spin, you are slightly missing the point. To claim a world's championship, one must beat the world. Nothing can be assumed. Upsets happen; that is why the games must be played. On paper, the 1980 US Olympic Hockey Team had no chance to beat the USSR. But they did.I am taking the San Antonio Spurs in every bet against Maccabi Tel Aviv. But to assume the Tel Aviv... whatever they are.... have no chance whatsoever is inaacurate.To that point, I am excited at the maturation of the FIBA World Cup. It is arrogant and provincial to claim the world without first conquering the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balsy Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 This thread has gone from hyperbolic to ridiculous to just plain hyperbolic-hyperbolic-absurdity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 Seriously??? Do you really think Maccabi Tel Aviv belongs on the same court as the San Antonio Spurs??? Or Tohoku Rakuten Golden Eagles should play in the World Series??? And the Super Bowl should have included the Saskatchewan Rough Riders??? I've seen a LOT of hyperbole in this thread but this is downright hilarious.Read what you want, but my point was thatMLB should change "World Series" to "MLB Championship Series"NBA should change rings to "NBA Champions"NFL should change rings to "NFL Champions"MLS named their championship "MLS Cup"NHL has the "Stanley Cup"It's easy and conceited for MLB, NBA, and NFL to claim "World Champion" when they don't invite the rest of the world.Your interpretation of what I was saying is one of the most ridiculous things I've ever read on ZN.o. ROFLMAO a lot today. My side hurts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zip_ME87 Posted September 22, 2014 Author Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 This thread has gone from hyperbolic to ridiculous to just plain hyperbolic-hyperbolic-absurdity. Cop out when you have no facts to back up your position. I so look forward to your next well thought out response. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave in Green Posted September 22, 2014 Report Share Posted September 22, 2014 When world championships were first created in professional baseball, basketball and football, the rest of the world wasn't even playing these sports at a professional level. All the best teams in the world were in the U.S., so whoever won the championship in the U.S. was, by definition, world champion by virtue of being best in the world. Over the years other countries have begun taking up the challenge of fielding professional leagues in these sports, and when they're good enough they will earn a chance to challenge. Until then, the best U.S. professional team is world champion (best in the world) in each of those three sports. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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