Fingerhut abandons idea of merging CSU and U of Akron, for now

[ZippyRulz]

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/03/fi...dea_of_mer.html

[UA Fan]

There ought to be a way to create a separate, consortium university for UA/Can't State/csu/ysu, like the medical school, to eliminate duplication of general studies and similar undergrad majors like arts & sciences, education, nursing, etc., while maintaining separate campuses/identities/centers-of-excellence. Students could still graduate from the U of their choice or the shared U (University of Northeast Ohio?). Then it would be nice if certain lesser sports could be combined under the consortium (does NEO need 4 baseball teams, golf, tennis, etc.?) The combined UNEO sports programs could either join the MAC as a separate entity, or possibly another conference.

[MaxZIP]

There ought to be a way to create a separate, consortium university for UA/Can't State/csu/ysu, like the medical school, to eliminate duplication of general studies and similar undergrad majors like arts & sciences, education, nursing, etc., while maintaining separate campuses/identities/centers-of-excellence. Students could still graduate from the U of their choice or the shared U (University of Northeast Ohio?). Then it would be nice if certain lesser sports could be combined under the consortium (does NEO need 4 baseball teams, golf, tennis, etc.?) The combined UNEO sports programs could either join the MAC as a separate entity, or possibly another conference.

Looks good on paper but most >80% of the students who attend these schools are comuters. I know he has target a 30 mile radius but that is a long way to travel often. Location and access are key. I agree that much of the savings could be accomplished through combining contracts for energy, supplies, and services. no need to get all comunist on the system and dictate who can have what majors.

[Zipsrifle]

I agree, we should be combining some of the curriculum. Personally, I think there is a LOT of money to be saved but nobody wants to reform the college education system we have today. People will pay the price to get a degree and why ruffle feathers????

[GoZips]

I, for one, think the Fingerhut plan is STUPID.He is a control freak socialist with zero comprehension of personality, competition and pride.Let Mr. Fingerhut sell his ideas and implement them in Chapel Hill NC. Show us how well thisworks by merging North Carolina, NC State, Duke, Wake Forest, and the several lesser knownuniversities in an area the size of north east Ohio. See if that works then come back here andsell this idiocy.The pennies saved by combining core courses, fields of study, etc. would be dwarfed bythe costs in time, energy and even lives. Stupid is as stupid does (a quote from aUniversity of Alabama graduate).

[Spin]

There ought to be a way to create a separate, consortium university for UA/Can't State/csu/ysu, like the medical school, to eliminate duplication of general studies and similar undergrad majors like arts & sciences, education, nursing, etc., while maintaining separate campuses/identities/centers-of-excellence.

Disagree wholeheartedly. There are not enough seats in nursing programs to fill the need already (good for me, bad for NEO) It's highly competitive to get into BSN programs, and AD programs who take anybody have 18-24 month waiting lists after you finish your prereq's. There aren't enough graduates to cover the retirees, let alone all of the expansion. The last thing we need is to combine those programs and further limit those graduates. There are few growth industries in NEO, and Nursing is one of them. I'm already being recruited and I have two semesters left.What would make more sense is dropping state funding of BS programs that have no need in society.

Students could still graduate from the U of their choice or the shared U (University of Northeast Ohio?). Then it would be nice if certain lesser sports could be combined under the consortium (does NEO need 4 baseball teams, golf, tennis, etc.?) The combined UNEO sports programs could either join the MAC as a separate entity, or possibly another conference.

Interesting idea. When you see CSU cancelling their baseball program, Can't State not sponsoring soccer, none sponsoring hockey, imagine what a combined budget could build...

[Z.I.P.]

There ought to be a way to create a separate, consortium university for UA/Can't State/csu/ysu, like the medical school, to eliminate duplication of general studies and similar undergrad majors like arts & sciences, education, nursing, etc., while maintaining separate campuses/identities/centers-of-excellence.

Disagree wholeheartedly. There are not enough seats in nursing programs to fill the need already (good for me, bad for NEO) It's highly competitive to get into BSN programs, and AD programs who take anybody have 18-24 month waiting lists after you finish your prereq's. There aren't enough graduates to cover the retirees, let alone all of the expansion. The last thing we need is to combine those programs and further limit those graduates. There are few growth industries in NEO, and Nursing is one of them. I'm already being recruited and I have two semesters left.What would make more sense is dropping state funding of BS programs that have no need in society.

Students could still graduate from the U of their choice or the shared U (University of Northeast Ohio?). Then it would be nice if certain lesser sports could be combined under the consortium (does NEO need 4 baseball teams, golf, tennis, etc.?) The combined UNEO sports programs could either join the MAC as a separate entity, or possibly another conference.

Interesting idea. When you see CSU cancelling their baseball program, Can't State not sponsoring soccer, none sponsoring hockey, imagine what a combined budget could build...

That's a fascinating contribution from Spin! When I was a student, the school offered to essentially pay the full-load of any MALE who was willing to study nursing for four years. Not sure how that worked out 30 yrs ago, but I still hate the sight of blood! Finally, I have to comment on the political science of my friend Gozips comment: A state administrator -- from one of the most conservative administrations in the state's history has a vision which only includes cutting, privatizing and consolidating university programs, while doing nothing to stop tuition and fee increases. To use the 'S'-word to describe that should make a huge contribution to understanding how Cold War ideology has set the nation back more than half a century. Far from some sort of 21st Century Eugene Debs (1914 Presidential candidate who won over 10%), Mr Fingerhut (I assume he must be the kingpin of the private security guard biz?) sounds like the sort of opportunistic capitalist whose "free-market" vision is to drown public education in the bathtub of self-service/special interest politics. Stepping off the soapbox, I return you now to your regularly scheduled ZN.O programming.

[Dave in Green]

Good thread + politics = bad thread.

[GoZips]

Good thread + politics = bad thread.

Dave, ahem, Fingerhut is all about politics. He is a socialist. Check his record.

[UA Fan]

I, for one, think the Fingerhut plan is STUPID.He is a control freak socialist with zero comprehension of personality, competition and pride.Let Mr. Fingerhut sell his ideas and implement them in Chapel Hill NC. Show us how well thisworks by merging North Carolina, NC State, Duke, Wake Forest, and the several lesser knownuniversities in an area the size of north east Ohio. See if that works then come back here andsell this idiocy.The pennies saved by combining core courses, fields of study, etc. would be dwarfed bythe costs in time, energy and even lives. Stupid is as stupid does (a quote from aUniversity of Alabama graduate).

Well, he obviously received a lot of blowback on his forced-merger plans but I tend to agree that 4 large universities in 1/4 of the state misses out on some synergies (and BTW, I wouldn't reduce nursing student headcount, just standardize the curriculum & maybe move it into the medical U...seems like further synergies would be available for nurse-practitioner & nurse-anesthetist programs). At the risk of creating a new directional school, you would have UNEO, UNEO-Akron, UNEO-Can't, UNEO-Cleveland and UNEO-Youngstown; each separate and each with the option of spinning programs off into the "parent" U (for appropriate compensation). The UNEO programs could still be hosted on the various member campuses so they would be close to the students and you wouldn't have to build another big campus. Sorry, but in the absence of interesting football, I have to play SimUniversity

[g-mann17]

There are 4 million people in NEO. The number state universities and their student populations are similar to areas of similar size. There are roughly 100 thousand students attending the four 4 year schools. So 2.5% of the population. The system doesn't need overhauled. However the schools that are best at running schools cheaply and creating synergy should run the branch campuses. So with that said, Stark State should run the whole Stark campus. Can't should give up some of their branches to YSU and Akron.

[Blue & Gold]

Can't should give up some of their branches to YSU and Akron.

I recall a motion in the late 90's to contract Can't-Stark because it was so close in proximity to UA; drive another 10-minutes(ish) north & you're on UA's campus. Though it never came to pass, I was all for it. I've always felt Can't-Stark was a Can't State low blow to UA - putting that branch right on Interstate 77 about ten-minutes south of campus. I'd love to see those 4000 students drive another 10 minutes & go to a real school.

[Spin]

Can't should give up some of their branches to YSU and Akron.

I recall a motion in the late 90's to contract Can't-Stark because it was so close in proximity to UA; drive another 10-minutes(ish) north & you're on UA's campus. Though it never came to pass, I was all for it. I've always felt Can't-Stark was a Can't State low blow to UA - putting that branch right on Interstate 77 about ten-minutes south of campus. I'd love to see those 4000 students drive another 10 minutes & go to a real school.

Where would they park?

[LosAngelesZipFan]

Why did this topic re-surface? Did something new pop up on this?I still feel that UA and Can't State should be combined. Makes no sense for these 2 huge schools to sit 12 miles apart. There's even a frickin' train track that directly connects them. Combine 'em. Make one world-class institution that can really serve NEO. It would have 70K+ students. All those branch campuses woud knit together all of NEO (ex-Cleveland), creating a true fan base and an unstoppable political force that would even the funding playing field with OSU. There would be a couple of truly world-class, synergistic programs (polymers, liquid crystals) that could readily lead to others. It would have a huge business school and nursing program. Linked architecture and engineering programs. It would logically take over NEOUCOM, adding medicine and pharmacy. It would raise $60-80M a year (to start but probably grow quickly) and have an global alumni base of something like 400K. The potential impact on the athletic programs is obvious-- an institution of this size and scope immediately warrants the attention of BCS conferences; the cost efficiencies and increased support would unlock significant increases in funding to key sports like football. To fully get the impact, imagine someone like me living in LA. There are a few 1000 alums floating around here from UA and a few thousand from Can't State. Individually, it's really not enough to sustain an interesting alumni network. Putting them together and adding in the yearly flow from this much larger institution would provide the real potential for thriving alumni outposts that support the school, financially and otherwise. These two institutions so close together and so similar in scope and scale is an anomaly. I love UA and the time I spent there. But I think we'd all have to admit that the reason we are here on this board is because deep down we want UA to play at a bigger level in every possible way. For us, it's an article of faith that it can. But clearly UA lacks the resources, scale, and footprint to readily spring to that next level. A combo with Can't would immediately eliminate most of those barriers.Start with a confederation that merges alumni, some academic and our mutually woeful football programs-- it certainly wouldn't make the teams worse-- and over a few years pull the institutions together. UA is the science and graduate campus; Can't the undergrad and liberal arts campus. Run the train back and forth and keep the buses going to make it essentially a seamless dual-hub campus. Not saying it's easy, just that it is the one clear, obvious, and almost certain path to dramatically alter the trajectory of these 2 schools. Do it proactively-- don't wait for the state to one day decide that Akron should be a branch of CSU. Take control of the future by doing something historic!

[Zipsrifle]

Why did this topic re-surface? Did something new pop up on this?I still feel that UA and Can't State should be combined. Makes no sense for these 2 huge schools to sit 12 miles apart. There's even a frickin' train track that directly connects them. Combine 'em. Make one world-class institution that can really serve NEO. It would have 70K+ students. All those branch campuses woud knit together all of NEO (ex-Cleveland), creating a true fan base and an unstoppable political force that would even the funding playing field with OSU. There would be a couple of truly world-class, synergistic programs (polymers, liquid crystals) that could readily lead to others. It would have a huge business school and nursing program. Linked architecture and engineering programs. It would logically take over NEOUCOM, adding medicine and pharmacy. It would raise $60-80M a year (to start but probably grow quickly) and have an global alumni base of something like 400K. The potential impact on the athletic programs is obvious-- an institution of this size and scope immediately warrants the attention of BCS conferences; the cost efficiencies and increased support would unlock significant increases in funding to key sports like football. To fully get the impact, imagine someone like me living in LA. There are a few 1000 alums floating around here from UA and a few thousand from Can't State. Individually, it's really not enough to sustain an interesting alumni network. Putting them together and adding in the yearly flow from this much larger institution would provide the real potential for thriving alumni outposts that support the school, financially and otherwise. These two institutions so close together and so similar in scope and scale is an anomaly. I love UA and the time I spent there. But I think we'd all have to admit that the reason we are here on this board is because deep down we want UA to play at a bigger level in every possible way. For us, it's an article of faith that it can. But clearly UA lacks the resources, scale, and footprint to readily spring to that next level. A combo with Can't would immediately eliminate most of those barriers.Start with a confederation that merges alumni, some academic and our mutually woeful football programs-- it certainly wouldn't make the teams worse-- and over a few years pull the institutions together. UA is the science and graduate campus; Can't the undergrad and liberal arts campus. Run the train back and forth and keep the buses going to make it essentially a seamless dual-hub campus. Not saying it's easy, just that it is the one clear, obvious, and almost certain path to dramatically alter the trajectory of these 2 schools. Do it proactively-- don't wait for the state to one day decide that Akron should be a branch of CSU. Take control of the future by doing something historic!

Some good points here. In a thread some time ago I proposed and idea that would take some of these concepts even further, though it would likely damage or even destroy the "College Experience" as we know it today. Why stop with 2 schools close together? From the standpoint of saving money, I like the idea of linking all the schools and allowing the students to get their degree for any Ohio College. I took quite a few classes on-line and I think it is the way of the future. Common classes and degrees would be available at the schools as they are today and over the internet. Schools with weak/low demand programs would have those programs cancelled. Schools with strong programs would keep those programs. Undergraduate students could take any class from any school online with the exception of hands-on classes/labs. These would need to be available for those students within a reasonable driving distance. It is likely that a school with a strength in that discipline would be nearby. Rare or exceptional programs may exist at only one school. My thought process is that we drive out the inefficiencies due to redundant/low demand programs and leverage technology (the Internet) to expose more people to what the schools throughout Ohio have to offer. It is conceivable that students may not even need step foot on campus.

[GoZips]

Why did this topic re-surface? Did something new pop up on this?I still feel that UA and Can't State should be combined. Makes no sense for these 2 huge schools to sit 12 miles apart. There's even a frickin' train track that directly connects them. Combine 'em. Make one world-class institution that can really serve NEO. It would have 70K+ students. All those branch campuses woud knit together all of NEO (ex-Cleveland), creating a true fan base and an unstoppable political force that would even the funding playing field with OSU. There would be a couple of truly world-class, synergistic programs (polymers, liquid crystals) that could readily lead to others. It would have a huge business school and nursing program. Linked architecture and engineering programs. It would logically take over NEOUCOM, adding medicine and pharmacy. It would raise $60-80M a year (to start but probably grow quickly) and have an global alumni base of something like 400K. The potential impact on the athletic programs is obvious-- an institution of this size and scope immediately warrants the attention of BCS conferences; the cost efficiencies and increased support would unlock significant increases in funding to key sports like football. To fully get the impact, imagine someone like me living in LA. There are a few 1000 alums floating around here from UA and a few thousand from Can't State. Individually, it's really not enough to sustain an interesting alumni network. Putting them together and adding in the yearly flow from this much larger institution would provide the real potential for thriving alumni outposts that support the school, financially and otherwise. These two institutions so close together and so similar in scope and scale is an anomaly. I love UA and the time I spent there. But I think we'd all have to admit that the reason we are here on this board is because deep down we want UA to play at a bigger level in every possible way. For us, it's an article of faith that it can. But clearly UA lacks the resources, scale, and footprint to readily spring to that next level. A combo with Can't would immediately eliminate most of those barriers.Start with a confederation that merges alumni, some academic and our mutually woeful football programs-- it certainly wouldn't make the teams worse-- and over a few years pull the institutions together. UA is the science and graduate campus; Can't the undergrad and liberal arts campus. Run the train back and forth and keep the buses going to make it essentially a seamless dual-hub campus. Not saying it's easy, just that it is the one clear, obvious, and almost certain path to dramatically alter the trajectory of these 2 schools. Do it proactively-- don't wait for the state to one day decide that Akron should be a branch of CSU. Take control of the future by doing something historic!

Some good points here. In a thread some time ago I proposed and idea that would take some of these concepts even further, though it would likely damage or even destroy the "College Experience" as we know it today. Why stop with 2 schools close together? From the standpoint of saving money, I like the idea of linking all the schools and allowing the students to get their degree for any Ohio College. I took quite a few classes on-line and I think it is the way of the future. Common classes and degrees would be available at the schools as they are today and over the internet. Schools with weak/low demand programs would have those programs cancelled. Schools with strong programs would keep those programs. Undergraduate students could take any class from any school online with the exception of hands-on classes/labs. These would need to be available for those students within a reasonable driving distance. It is likely that a school with a strength in that discipline would be nearby. Rare or exceptional programs may exist at only one school. My thought process is that we drive out the inefficiencies due to redundant/low demand programs and leverage technology (the Internet) to expose more people to what the schools throughout Ohio have to offer. It is conceivable that students may not even need step foot on campus.

Yada, yada, yada.Read what you two are writing. Neither of you are looking at the big picture. First off,sports has absolutely nothing to do with building a "mega" university. In truth, sportswould likely be the first casualty. You do not need sports as part of a "mega" university'sidentity. Its sheer size takes care of that.Socialists eschew sports. The only sports they are interested in are those that promotetheir agenda. For reference see the 1936 Olympics.Speaking of sheer size; the student identity can be discarded. You become a number.No need for inter-action with faculty. And, by all means take as many courses as possiblefrom your home computer in your underwear. The school needs the parking spaces. Did any one mention that we already have a "mega" online university? Its name is the University of Phoenix. Once you establish that its an all encompassing one the next step is to determine whereto locate this "mega" university. Why in Akron? Why not in scenic Can't? Any attemptto have satellite campuses would soon evolve into a central campus. You lose controlif you have satellite campuses. Bigger is better? Where is that written in stone? Why is sacrificing your personal identity so important to you? When has government ever run anything efficiently? Four hundreddollar toilet seats? And, you want a governing body to create a mega school that isperfect in every conceivable way. You are far more naive than you know.Fingerhut is a well known Socialist. His objective and former fuehrer Ted Strickland isto push their socialist ideas on the populace. Their world view is that they know betterthan you do what is good for you. Think this through without the blinders and rose colored glasses of socialism. Megauniversities are at best a hair-brained idea. At worst, a means to control thought.Why who needs two or more competing ideas to build an airplane, an Internet, awashing machine? Competition is the antisis of socialism. It scares them to death.Have we brain washed students to the point that they no longer think for themselves?What kind of university system turns out autotrons? Why, the kind you are advocating.notes: 1) The NAZI's were Socialists, not "right wingers". 2) You all love and admire the University of Phoenix. Right? 3) I recently purchased a toilet seat for my home. Cost: $9.87 at Home Depot. And, it was not the cheapest model available. 4) Winston Churchill is quoted as saying, "if you are not a Liberal at age twenty you have no heart. If you are not a Conservative by age forty, you have no brains." (both Fingerhut and Strickland are past age forty).

[Dave in Green]

Godwin's Law

[GoZips]

Godwin's Law rendered obsolete by the NEOCONS.Now, what the heck is a neocon? A buzz word that attempts to render anothereffete so as to fortify one's one point of view.Not being a neocon I cannot relate. While I confess that I am a Conservative,that is many miles from a neocon.My point of view is that universities should compete with each other to offerthe broadest range of thought. Lest we are sucked into a vacuum created byKeynesian economics. The converse point of view has the credentials that it,not Keynes, works.

[zippy5]

lol

[LosAngelesZipFan]

Whoa, we are in seriously in danger of entering black helicopter territory here Go Zips.Your point about competition is spot on-- will UA be better competing against Can't (and YSU and CSU) for a static/shrinking pool of NEO students, talent, money or having the institutional heft to compete against OSU and other land grant schools? Can either Can't or UA afford an effect way to tap into India or China that connects NEO to those markets in some way? No, but together they might be able to. The point is that a combo reframes the competition. We can compete against Hiram College every day-- as a football team or an accounting program-- and not get much better. As far as the $400 toilet seat...it was for a nuclear attack sub, specially milled to muffle sounds. Not everything the gov't does or touches is stupid and wasteful. For instance, the rate of growth of cost in the private healthcare sector are much higher-- at least 2x higher-- than that in the public system, despite the waste and fraud. Go see my company's new movie Contagion to see a portrayal of the value and importance of the public sector in combatting things like pandemics!

[Zipsrifle]

WOW. Way to take a simple open discussion nuclear. :rolleyes:There is no need to interpret others ideas other than what they are, opinions. By blasting ideas that do not align with yours you are trying to control the forum which ruins the experience for all of us. Chill out! No need for personal attacks. I think you miss the major thrust of my proposal. I am looking to drive cost out of the Ohio public college education system NOT create one mega university and destroy college athletics. In fact, nowhere in my comments do I mention sports… Anyway, because I am focused on public colleges and not private, my proposal would actually eliminate some of those programs that have been hanging around because the public schools would not let them go. A private school would have canned those programs years ago. I am simply looking to eliminate waste and increase efficiency by leveraging new technology. Yes, it would bring the schools within the state closer together but that is not entirely a bad thing. In this discussion, there are other considerations that are also important and I do not discount those. Again, my frame of reference is clearly stated as "Saving Money" and I can easily take another point of view that would highlight issues with my proposal above. You made several valid points and trust me, I love the current "College Experience" and would hate to destroy it! As for online learning, I was skeptical of it at first, but I was forced to take classes online due to my work schedule. I too felt that you needed to be in class to connect with your professor and other students. Once classes started, it was not as I imagined. There were both online and classroom students for my first class. I did not have any issues. I called the professor on the phone if I had an issue and the students used SKYPE for projects. The university was actually able to have some classes "off session" with no physical class in session. I simply reviewed previously recorded lectures and worked directly with my professor and classmates. It allowed the university to reduce cost and increase income. I could review the classes when it was convenient for me anywhere. It was great. Now, I understand that this is not for everyone, but I for one loved it and I think many people will prefer the online method. Oh, and my classes started 10 years ago and were through a well known private university, NOT the UofP.

[Spin]

I still feel that UA and Can't State should be combined. Makes no sense for these 2 huge schools to sit 12 miles apart. There's even a frickin' train track that directly connects them.

Like Duke and NC? USC and UCLA? Cincinnati and Xavier? Then there's Temple, Penn, Villanova, St Josephs, and LaSalle (all playing in the same arena)

[Dave in Green]

One size does not necessarily fit all. Each set of geographical neighbor schools would need to be thoroughly analyzed and all options considered. Combining resources might make more sense for some than others. The ones that are doing best on their own right now might laugh at the thought of joining with their geographical neighbors. But if combining some northeast Ohio schools resulted in superior performance, you can bet that other schools in other areas would be looking and wondering if that might not be the way to go.

[LosAngelesZipFan]

All the examples you cite are privates next to publics--Duke, Xavier, USC, etc. I don't know of any other situation where two 30K+ enrollment public institutions that are inherently competing for the same pool of students and state resources are sitting right next door to each other. From an economic dev perspective, the state would ideally have a major university aligned against the major population centers. OSU and Cincy do that. NEO never had that happen-- Can't was never strong enough to do this and whatever ambitions it had to do so were obliterated by May 4.

[g-mann17]

All the examples you cite are privates next to publics--Duke, Xavier, USC, etc. I don't know of any other situation where two 30K+ enrollment public institutions that are inherently competing for the same pool of students and state resources are sitting right next door to each other.

From an economic dev perspective, the state would ideally have a major university aligned against the major population centers. OSU and Cincy do that. NEO never had that happen-- Can't was never strong enough to do this and whatever ambitions it had to do so were obliterated by May 4.

UA and Toledo do that as well. The odd men out are the two historic universities (Miami and OU) and the "normal" universities Can't and BGSU.

But you also act like Can't and Akron are in the same city (they aren't) and May 4 actually saved Can't, it got it sympathy, and that means more pull in the Statehouse to get money.

UA and Can't will always be seperate. Why? Because combining them makes them compete against OSU.