Great...err..Highly Controversial Column By Bob Dyer

[Captain Kangaroo]

An one who constantly berates the ABJ for its shoddy efforts, it is only fair that I give some credit when someone does a nice job. This story by Bob Dyer is an excellent look at Ohio HS athletics and the dominance of Catholic schools. Very well researched. Note: Although not specifically Zips football-related, it is our slow period, so I placed it here. It is a good read.

[zen]

I have a question (as a public skewl graduate); Do athletes at private schools get tuition scholarships?I don't understand the axe grinding. Are there people out there who don't know that private schools are not as geographically constrained about who attends?If your state forces people to pay for their schools through local property taxes, yet does not allow them to choose where their children get an education except to pay for that education out of their pockets EXTRA, then you have no right to complain when those schools out perform the public schools either in academics or athletics

[zippyrifle32]

i admit, i stopped reading after the second page because all i see is a bunch of bitching. this is an argument that is brought up back home as well (private school graduate from oregon). i know my school didn't recruit nor did they offer scholarship to play. what i found is that people who can afford to send their kids to private schools also have the money to send their kids to more sport camps, hire private coaches, and provide more resources that can make their kids better players. they also have the money to donate to the sport programs their kids participate in which only adds to the resources that are not available to many public school teams. success then breeds success. i don't know if here in ohio they offer athletic scholarship, but i doubt it. the schools probably offer financial aid, but because it is offered to anyone below a certain income level it can't really be classified as an athletic scholarship.

[gozips19]

you are right they don't and can't offer scholarships but they can offer "leadership scholarships" ( proud recipient of one). also they can offer you a job with the school and the hours you work for the school go towards your tuition. if you happen to be an elite athlete some one will always find a way just they way it is...... with that being said i am a graduate of a public school. so i can see the pros and cons of the article.

[Zippysgotagun]

I know some schools also give financial aid for students from families that can't normally afford to pay $6K+ for high school.

[GoZips]

Personally I did not find Dyer's hack article to be a "fine job". It was for all intents and purposes an anti-Catholic rant. A bush league hack job by a wanna be whiner.Parochial schools (nee: Catholic) have traditionally excelled in athletics. Check records for the entire twentieth century and you will find that there has always been astrong if not overwhelming presence of parochial schools winning championships. Which destroys the whine about recruiting. Parochial schools draw their studentsfrom a wider geographical area.Because parochial schools have traditionally promoted strong athletic programs they should be penalized? Sounds like left wing politics to me. Cryer is obviouslyranting the standard leftist bleat. "We must be fair to everyone. Non-athletes deserve trophies and championships just like the athletes have EARNED. Its justnot fair that the parochial schools get all the best athletes. Waaaaaa." This is America, pal. In our system you get rewarded for your personal effort.In today's world, just like at the university level, students with excellent athletic skills gravitate toward the upper echelon programs. A four or five star athlete isfar more likely to want to play at tOSU than at Akron. For this you want to penalize them? Shall we penalize tOSU with a 1.65 offset ratio similar to what Cryerwants for parochial schools? Sounds like a plan to me.

[g-mann17]

Personally I did not find Dyer's hack article to be a "fine job". It was for all intents and purposes an anti-Catholic rant. A bush league hack job by a wanna be whiner.Parochial schools (nee: Catholic) have traditionally excelled in athletics. Check records for the entire twentieth century and you will find that there has always been astrong if not overwhelming presence of parochial schools winning championships. Which destroys the whine about recruiting. Parochial schools draw their studentsfrom a wider geographical area.Because parochial schools have traditionally promoted strong athletic programs they should be penalized? Sounds like left wing politics to me. Cryer is obviouslyranting the standard leftist bleat. "We must be fair to everyone. Non-athletes deserve trophies and championships just like the athletes have EARNED. Its justnot fair that the parochial schools get all the best athletes. Waaaaaa." This is America, pal. In our system you get rewarded for your personal effort.In today's world, just like at the university level, students with excellent athletic skills gravitate toward the upper echelon programs. A four or five star athlete isfar more likely to want to play at tOSU than at Akron. For this you want to penalize them? Shall we penalize tOSU with a 1.65 offset ratio similar to what Cryerwants for parochial schools? Sounds like a plan to me.

A whole lot of rant about crying, and it sounds more like you are the whiner.In the south, Parochial schools are seperated into their own conference. Because the playing field isn't necessary level. Check it out. Secondly, parochial schools do recruit. I was asked to run track at St. V. Several of my friends who wrestled were approached by Walsh Jesuit. The top running back at my school had Hoban calling his mom and dad every day. "You don't want your son at a 'public school' do you?"The only, and yes it is the only, reason that parochial schools have superior athletic programs recruiting. The only reason they have superior (ha,ha) Academic programs (I laugh because the top students in the Akron Public schools always seem to have higher SAT schores) is because they recruit.If you get to be selective about your level of talent, which public schools are not allowed to do, then you are going to be able to appear to have stronger programs.But don't let the article fool you, public schools recruit too. Ask Zwick if you don't believe me.

[w00t]

Bob Dyer is everything that's wrong with the Beacon Journal... small-time writers, small-time ideas, big-time hubris (they are journalists after all). Other than that I really can't add too much to what zen and GoZips said. Newspapers are a dying medium and the mid-market ones like the Beacon will be the first to go. (When this happens by the way, party at my house... free beer.) Anyone know Dyer's e-mail? I'm thinking about sending him an app for the Daily Can't Stater, I think it's better suited to his abilities as a writer and his "equality of outcomes" worldview.

[w00t]

The only reason they have superior (ha,ha) Academic programs (I laugh because the top students in the Akron Public schools always seem to have higher SAT schores) is because they recruit.

I could have taken you seriously if you hadn't said this.

[GoZips]

name='g-mann17' date='May 22 2008, 08:06 AM' post='61092']In the south, Parochial schools are separated into their own conference. Because the playing field isn't necessary level. Check it out.

At what point in my post did I ever claim that parochial schools do not recruit? Of course they recruit. And we know that some public schools recruit as well.Note your statement about separation of parochial schools in the South. As I previously mentioned about Bob Dyer whining his anti-Catholic rant you post aboutparochial schools being segregated into separate back of the bus conferences, ahem. Talk about anti-Catholic. But we know there is no anti-Catholicism in the South.Right. The success of parochial schools in the South long ago led those upstanding folks to segregate and later impose offset ratios to stop the success of the parochial schools.Are you suggesting that their bigotry be imported to Akron and Ohio?I will support you on one condition. When all the dust settles from the various championships pit the public skewl champion against the parochial champion. Somestates actually do that. And, guess what? The parochial champion usually mops up the stadium with the public skewl champion. Fun.

[uafan]

After 3 years of losing in the playoffs to Cincinnati parochial schools, I asked our football coach what we could do to finally beat those guys. His reply has stuck with me since."Get better!"

[GP1]

High School RankingsAbove is a link for some sort of a ratings system for the best high school athletic programs by state. I don't know much about the rankings or how they came about them, but I found it interesting. The majority appear to be public schools. Give it as much importance as you feel necessary.Before moving away, I lived in the city of Akron. I also went to private elementary school and public middle and high school. Both schools were really good but I was also from a small Ohio town. If I had children, there is no way I would send one to Akron Public Schools at this point. The educational opportunities at Hoban, St. V-M, Walsh and Our Lady of The Elms are much better than offerings at APS. Ultimately, a kid growing up in Akron with a chance to play college sport stands a better chance of being prepared for college (athletics and academics) if that kid goes to one of the private schools above. There are some fantistic kids playing at places like Firestone and Buchtel, but the average run of the mill kid from Akron with college talent is better served at a private school.I find this topic interesting because it makes me realize how much I could really care less about high school sports. I could care less if all public schools win state championships and I could care less if all private schools win state championships. One public school division and one private school division is really a silly proposal because it is only high school sports and it is not really that important to anyone other than the kids and parents participating. Articles like this elevate high school sports to a level it really does not belong. In recent years, we have had good Zips from all types of schools. Dru, Romeo and Dom Hix were all private school products. Wood, Pinky, Biggs, Blackburn et al are public school products. I can't believe the ABJ wasted ink and paper on this subject.

[zen]

I could care less if all public schools win state championships and I could care less if all private schools win state championships.

Isn't that the point that seems to elude everyone despite how obvious it is?Someone has an agenda. Most people don't.In other words, the only reason this would be an issue with anyone is if they "cared" about which schools were winning championships. Let me illustrate it with an analogy.Why is it that, among all the people in the U.S. and all the people in Florida, it would be Hillary Clinton would sue to get the primary election votes counted? Why wouldn't it be the people whose votes may not count?The answer is obvious. Hillary is the one who gets hurt the most. The concept of "letting votes count" is the tool.The people who complain about a situation are always the people who have decided that such a situation does not suit their desires.I went to a public school that hangs state championship banners for several sports. They are not perennial champions, but they have had their shots.The system is not rigged. The problem is that SOME people want to impose as much artificially regulated "equity" as they can in order to give certain interests a better "chance".You know what? Just let the kids play.

[zippyrifle32]

I find this topic interesting because it makes me realize how much I could really care less about high school sports. I could care less if all public schools win state championships and I could care less if all private schools win state championships.

for me this is true as well, except when you are in high school or work for a high school (coach, ad, other teacher/administrator) it's really all you got. i personally have nothing invested, but i can understand why it is such a big deal to the people it actually affects.

[zipdiehard]

Man, why do people read into things so much? How one would get 'anti-Catholic' out of this is beyond me. The article is solidly written and contains many facts to make its point. Private schools have an advantage both academically and athletically, whatever the cause and effect is that you apply. We all know how high school sports work, and yes that includes public school recruiting. When I was growing up, kids went to certain Akron public schools based on what sport you were strong in...CH for basketball, Garfield for football, Ellet for baseball, etc... I see no problem with considering a different division or realignment for private schools as long as it doesn't put them at a disadvantage by placing a really small school in too big of a division. SVSM did it themselves in basketball when a certain player was there. Let's be honest here in that we are really talking about the sports factories, not every single private school.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Man, why do people read into things so much? How one would get 'anti-Catholic' out of this is beyond me. The article is solidly written and contains many facts to make its point. Private schools have an advantage both academically and athletically, whatever the cause and effect is that you apply.I see no problem with considering a different division or realignment for private schools as long as it doesn't put them at a disadvantage by placing a really small school in too big of a division. SVSM did it themselves in basketball when a certain player was there. Let's be honest here in that we are really talking about the sports factories, not every single private school.

I'm with you. The facts are undeniable...parochial schools are athletic machines that the overwhelming majority of public schools are incapable of competing against. Dyer lays it all out pretty clearly, and with supporting facts not just opinions. And it isn't an outlandish proposal to separate public and parochial schools when it comes to competing for championships.I don't get the "hey...let the public schools get stomped...who cares whether or not they can compete for a championship" attitude. Why does tabling the issue cause people to go "Bob Knight?"Tell me how Youngstown Cardinal Mooney, with at least 9 BCS scholarship players on their roster...plays in OSHAA Division IV? How fair is THAT? Mooney was ranked in the top 10 in the NATION, yet they're competing against public schools none of whom would make the USA Today top 1,000, let alone Top 10.If you hate HS football, or are simply indifferent to it, IMO you're really missing out. I attended three of the state finals football games this year. The environment is flat-out electric. Whole towns empty out, paint their faces, their car windows and drive upwards of 3-4 hours to support their teams. The caliber of football is always great. No flaming scoreboards...no dance team tarts...no DJ house party punk blasting you with music...just hard nosed football that is a binding fabric to many communities.And for those who might get their panties in a bunch over what I've written above, I'll offer this:USA Today #1249 Coldwater beat USA Today #9 Cardinal Mooney 28-27 in what was as compelling a football game as I've seen in some time. Shortly thereafter, Maria Stein Marion Local, from the same Dayton-area conference as Coldwater, beat parochial power Youngstown Ursuline 20-17. So I say...let the private machines continue playing public schools in the playoffs. It often turns into a real-life Hoosiers, with a splash of Rudy. And I LOVE that stuff!"No one roots for Goliath."At least I don't.

[zip37]

Had this short coversation in mid 70s w/a catholic hs coach/friend.How's the recruiting going?You know we're not allowed to recruit.Yeaah, I know, How's it going?Just fine. 'Nuf said.

[zen]

why not?while we are at it, why not 'curve' GPAs, SATs, and other benchmarks of public school kids to make it fair.After all, it doesn't matter whether or not they perform better, it only matters that no one appears to so they can still feel good about themselves.What I don't understand is, if we have all these different divisions in high school athletics, why do we need to split things up even more? If private schools are so much better, why not just put most of them in division-1 with some of the good public schools (glenville for example?) and bump everyone else down one.[sarc]Oh no wait, that would still give them prestige. You're right. Let's segregate them like lepers! [/sarc]

[w00t]

while we are at it, why not 'curve' GPAs, SATs, and other benchmarks of public school kids to make it fair.

What are you talking about? Didn't you read g-mann's assertion that public school kids outperform their private school counterparts on standardized tests?

[zen]

while we are at it, why not 'curve' GPAs, SATs, and other benchmarks of public school kids to make it fair.

What are you talking about? Didn't you read g-mann's assertion that public school kids outperform their private school counterparts on standardized tests?

I believe it was something about the top scores being higher. Statistically speaking, since many more students are in public schools, I think you'll have that.

[ZippyRulz]

I say it's time to privatize all the schools, reduce taxes accordingly and give vouchers to those who need them. Let the schools compete and get state and school board politicians and unions out of the education picture. Even if this can't be done politically, the private schools should try to build large endowments so they can fund more scholarships and continually get more and more students out of bad public schools.

[zen]

I say it's time to privatize all the schools, reduce taxes accordingly and give vouchers to those who need them. Let the schools compete and get state and school board politicians and unions out of the education picture. Even if this can't be done politically, the private schools should try to build large endowments so they can fund more scholarships and continually get more and more students out of bad public schools.

privatize schools?reduce taxes??give people choices???take bureaucrats out of the education system????TO the GULAG with you! Comrade ZippyRulz, you are an enemy of the people's republic of the U.S.

[g-mann17]

I say it's time to privatize all the schools, reduce taxes accordingly and give vouchers to those who need them. Let the schools compete and get state and school board politicians and unions out of the education picture. Even if this can't be done politically, the private schools should try to build large endowments so they can fund more scholarships and continually get more and more students out of bad public schools.

privatize schools?reduce taxes??give people choices???take bureaucrats out of the education system????TO the GULAG with you! Comrade ZippyRulz, you are an enemy of the people's republic of the U.S.

Everyone of you are completely ignorant. Let's see how St. V and Hoban and Walsh perform when they have to, and I mean have to, keep every single Buchtel, Kenmore, or East Student in school. Find a way to teach kids that don't want to be there or whose parents could care less if they are there or not. Let's see how well they perform over all when they have 1000 students and only 30% of them want to be there and have parents that give a rat's ass about what goes on.Let's see how Kenmore, Buchtel, and East perform when they are allowed to kick out students who fail, or are trouble makers or don't even bother to show up. Yeah let's see how well the schools compare when we swap rules.Oh but that's right, that means you can't continue to look at everything from your suck ass perspective. Where the world sucks, and unions suck, Northeast Ohio sucks, and it will never be good, and public school and government anything is just a "horrible drain on society and communist, socialist thinking".

[zen]

Everyone of you are completely ignorant.

Classy!... and I just realized that whatever you typed after that must be right simply because you made that declaration.

Everyone of you are completely ignorant. Let's see how St. V and Hoban and Walsh perform when they have to, and I mean have to, keep every single Buchtel, Kenmore, or East Student in school. Find a way to teach kids that don't want to be there or whose parents could care less if they are there or not. Let's see how well they perform over all when they have 1000 students and only 30% of them want to be there and have parents that give a rat's ass about what goes on.Let's see how Kenmore, Buchtel, and East perform when they are allowed to kick out students who fail, or are trouble makers or don't even bother to show up. Yeah let's see how well the schools compare when we swap rules.Oh but that's right, that means you can't continue to look at everything from your suck ass perspective. Where the world sucks, and unions suck, Northeast Ohio sucks, and it will never be good, and public school and government anything is just a "horrible drain on society and communist, socialist thinking".

Are you just reacting emotionally, or did you read some of the posts you are replying to?IF we privatize public schools, you would likely be giving Buchtel and Kenmore the ability to toss out the bad apples (invariably forcing some of the bad apples to reform their ways or end up on the streets and likely in a correctional institution rather than the education system ruining other kid's educations).In some ways, you are actually ranting for the same thing as the people you just called ignorant. wow.Try to get past the buzzwords that set you off and think about what is being said.

[g-mann17]

Everyone of you are completely ignorant.

Classy!... and I just realized that whatever you typed after that must be right simply because you made that declaration.

Everyone of you are completely ignorant. Let's see how St. V and Hoban and Walsh perform when they have to, and I mean have to, keep every single Buchtel, Kenmore, or East Student in school. Find a way to teach kids that don't want to be there or whose parents could care less if they are there or not. Let's see how well they perform over all when they have 1000 students and only 30% of them want to be there and have parents that give a rat's ass about what goes on.Let's see how Kenmore, Buchtel, and East perform when they are allowed to kick out students who fail, or are trouble makers or don't even bother to show up. Yeah let's see how well the schools compare when we swap rules.Oh but that's right, that means you can't continue to look at everything from your suck ass perspective. Where the world sucks, and unions suck, Northeast Ohio sucks, and it will never be good, and public school and government anything is just a "horrible drain on society and communist, socialist thinking".

Are you just reacting emotionally, or did you read some of the posts you are replying to?IF we privatize public schools, you would likely be giving Buchtel and Kenmore the ability to toss out the bad apples (invariably forcing some of the bad apples to reform their ways or end up on the streets and likely in a correctional institution rather than the education system ruining other kid's educations).In some ways, you are actually ranting for the same thing as the people you just called ignorant. wow.Try to get past the buzzwords that set you off and think about what is being said.

Except you can't "privatize" schools if you are funding it through state money. Equal opportunity and all that. So no matter what you do, there are always going to be schools that look "academically superior" but again, none of you are able to see that perspective can you?I'm not anti-private school. I feel it serves a important need in communities. Smaller class sizes, higher profile learning experiences. Does it mean the kids that attend private schools are better? No it doesn't. It means they have more resources. A lot of the teaching styles are tested in private schools because they have the ability to spend the money on new equipment. What works is picked up by inner city schools, or lower funded public schools when it becomes cheaper.My argument was on the perceived superiority of the education from a private school. And the bottom line is private schools get to be selective, with their athletes and students. Public schools don't. Plain and simple. Why? Because you have to educate everyone. It's not a choice. This idea that charter schools and privatization of schools are a better idea, is absolutely obsurd. Bottom line is, you can go to jewelry store and buy gems, or you can go and dig amungst a bunch of stupid rocks; when everything is said and done, you are still going to have something of value. Sometimes you just have to look harder.