ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net

I'm offended that you're offended. No actually I'm not. I don't care that you're offended. Your posts contain no logic, no actual argument, just righteous indignation. It's a forum where, you know, people talk about things. Anyone can mindlessly cheer. What the hell else do you have to offer?

That's nuts. We all know that the actual, true attendance numbers are not reflected in official attendance figures. Especially in the Craptacular MAC, where most of the teams wouldn't even be FBS if anyone actually cared about an attendance figure of 15,000 actual human beings showing up at games. I have been to games (mostly horrible and depressing losses at the Info) where there were NO MORE than 6,000 fans at the start, and about 1,000 by the end of the game. You know, the ones (most of the games at the Info) where by the middle of the fourth quarter you can hear individual fans cheering, and identify which ones are which on the other side of the field cheering, by their individual voices. You'd rather cheer one of the historic losing programs in the entire country, with a handful of thousand others, knowing that in the very best years you'll be lucky to eek out 7 wins. You guys are nuts. This is not normal, nor is it healthy. It's pathological, the absolute insistence that this program is JUST around the corner, the certitude that dropping to a lower level is the worst thing ever. You guys are absolutely nuts. You insist that those who might want to see the program become a winner by trying something different are losers, while insisting that UA remain on their current trajectory as one of the absolutely most moribund and decrepit progrums in the entire country. That means, by phucking definition, that you are insisting on being losers by cheering on a losing, broken-down mule of a program. I have to conclude that some, possibly many, of the posters here are just hopelessly attached to losing; that the pathology, some bizarre chip on your collective shoulders, has blinded you to the notion that it's very possible, even likely, that in ANOTHER 25 years, you will still be cheering on a losing program. There is no data that you can point to that would indicate otherwise, no real reason for hope, just blind insistence that Akron keep on sucking, you keep on cheering, and the endless wonder why nobody comes to the games. I no longer wonder why nobody comes to the games, and I no longer wonder why all of the midwest frontrunners cheer OSBoo. OSBoo doesn't tend to make people sad. Sometimes it make them feel triumphant, and who doesn't want a little of that? UA football is a sadness generator. If you go to UA games, year after year, and the team makes you much more angry, frustrated and/or sad than entertained, and yet you keep on coming back for more, you need a shrink. How can you not see and embrace that truth? Your favorite college football team is not supposed to make you want to kill the dog. You are the broken, beaten wives of college football.

A WINNING Akron team, at any level, would draw 10K+. I don't know what they draw officially these last few years, but there are about 2-6K actual bodies in the seats at any given game. I'd take 10K+ in attendance for a winning program at a lower level.

And the coach? GONE faster than you can say "back to normal in the MAC," not to mention that Can't State had to fund-raise like crazy to pay Hazell's salary and was likely forced to spend even more for their new coach, who will also leave if he's lucky enough to have a winning season or two. Spin said it best, in that there are 15-30 truly prestigious programs in the country. Akron arrived at the table way late, and 25 years in, "it" hasn't happened yet and I see no reason to believe that it will. Tell me that there is some way for UA to field a fun, winning team that builds a legacy of success at the FCS level, while the other winning programs continue at the highest level, I'm all over it. For those who argue that you cannot drop to FCS because we wouldn't win there either, do you not see the lack of logic in that line of thinking? If UA cannot win at FCS, they can never, ever win at FBS level. If they can't win at either level, then logic dictates that the program should drop to D-II and be a damned national powerhouse at that level. Akronites don't hate the Aeros because they aren't the Indians, and they have never loved UA at the D-1/FBS level. There is no logical reason to assume that fewer people would show for D-II teams than already show for Compass Directional Michigan, or Ball State. College football nerds know that Ball State is better than Indiana State, but no way are you going to convince me that Ball State draws lots more fans to the Dialer than Indiana State. Last thought for the night, and don't knee jerk your response: you can choose a program that fails, for a quarter century at FBS, draws about 6,000 actual humans to home games and is a national laughing stock, or you could have a Mount Union, probably draw 10,000+, win a lot of games, be in the national playoffs every year, and at the lower level, be a hard-core winning program. If your choice is UA, in that scenario, I truly don't understand why.

Opinions are opinions, but facts are facts. 25 years. In 25 years of D-1/FBS football, the Zips have been a failure. In fact, I would argue (opinion) that Faust had the best overall run in D-1 of the "modern" era UA coaches, and that was right out of the gate. Again, my opinion, that if the Zips were going to have found the formula for success in FBS, it would have happened by now. At any level, abject failure and 2,000-6,000 actual butts in the seats is a recipe for disaster. Whether or not other programs have made what may be an informed, enlightened and ultimately success-supporting move to a lower level of football, isn't important to me. I see no upside, from a programmatic point of view, in continuing on this path. Maybe no other program has made the move down, but there are PLENTY of other universities that feature one or two sports played on the highest level with others falling somewhere below. The Big East is falling apart for all to see because of that. Who, exactly, says that Akron must continue down the bloody path in football? Why, exactly, wouldn't it make sense for football to seek its natural level, wherever that may be, while UA continues to press the other programs at a higher level? And what is the gigantic chip on some shoulders here that drives such anger and resentment when somebody asks why it's logical for Akron to continue on the rocky road, 25 years in? Wouldn't you rather see a winner, at whatever level?

Again, can't you even replicate the Phil Savage line when you rudely tell other posters to piss off? Oh, and by the way, L(oser)Zip, piss off.

Damned statistics. I don't care how good one or two of the Toledo players are. You obviously missed the entire point of my post. Yes, I did watch much of the game, and it was not exciting, and the entire atmosphere was about as exciting and "big time" as FCS or D-II. The game was so riveting that the stands were about 1/3rd full. It would interesting to know how anyone makes money on bowl games like that one. Why would an advertiser want to pay for commercial time for a game like that? How does anyone make money on these crappy games? And next time you tell someone else to root for another team, first of all, screw you. Second, at least be a little creative and use the Phil Savage line next time.

I watched quite a bit of that Toledo game yesterday and not because I thought that it was riveting football. I saw a MAC team getting crushed, on a blue field, with the stands about 1/3rd full, and thought that athletics, especially college football, has lost me completely. Fat, bloated, worthless, boring. 70 teams out of 119 make it to a "bowl." So, say Akron turns it around and becomes Toledo in football. Yesterday is what it is? Really? That's what fans of UA and the MAC are clamoring for? Count me out if that's what "it" is. That sad, little, pathetic game represented the flushing of millions of dollars right down the drain. I don't get it anymore.

I agree wholeheartedly Zen. There's a difference between giving a coach the benefit of the doubt and treating him like a star before he has performed for us. Terry hasn't done anything here yet. I don't get the adulation. I also don't see the talent on this team. So, if this team wins 3 games in 2013 is that enough? Where are the recruits? Too many of the fans on ZN have been beaten by the "husband" for so many years that they rationalize for him now.

Jesus people, does Terry have naked pics of all of you? He's on the Ianello one-win program so far. How about expecting better before you get on your knees? He had better be The Best Recruiter Ever.

What I don't understand is the lionization of TB when he has done nothing, yet, to earn that here. So far he's won ONE game. I also don't understand posters who post on a board, which has no reason to exist other than providing a forum for fans to opine, that posters, who after all, aren't coaches, should basically shut their mouths. Are you really so thankful to have a coach that anyone has heard of?

You are correct, and then some. It vexes me that UA has never been able to recruit the horses. I just don't get it. Posters are convinced that TB will bring in big time players but I'm not. We'll know soon enough. Even coming off a one win season, if anyone can recruit at Akron it will be him. If the 2013 class isn't very promising Terry's goose is cooked, and by extension, so is UA's.

How about this Wallaby? I'll remain in the fact-based world, where objective reality rules the day. You remain wherever it is you reside, in your mind, a magical place where, suddenly, and after 25 years of non-success, this program will become a winner. Terry Bowden appears to be a credible coach and to have hired a credible staff, but there are ZERO facts, that you can point to, that support your contention that this one-win program is just about to turn the corner. You and I both want them to win, but I believe much greater success would result from reclaiming their natural place within the larger football order. If TB turns them into a winner, I'll be happy to be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Factory of sadness...

IT HAS BEEN 25 YEARS PEOPLE.

It's not as simple as blaming Ianello. What "magic" are you trying to recapture? Because if Ianello was that bad, there must have been another coach who consistently achieved at a high level so that you KNOW that the program belonged at that higher level, right? The problem with that logic is that this program has never had a blockbuster season post D-1 jump. We're now 5 coaches into the D-1/FBS era. Akron has squeaked out a handful of 7 win seasons IN 25 YEARS and backed into that "magical" 2005 post-season. This was never a major program and has been little more than early season chaff for major programs. It cannot be that I'm the only one who is tired of the abuse. How can it be a good thing to continue this FBS charade, when this program has never belonged in that mix? The only attention this program brings to the university and its fans is negative. Akron football equals sadness. There is no measure by which it is positive for the university to field the worst program in football year after year. I believe that negative attention is probably why locals treat the program with scorn. Akronites certainly don't hate Akron soccer or Akron basketball. Bring up Akron football with Joe Akron and he becomes scornful. I now believe it's because of the perennial negativity that Akron football brings to the university and the city. Nobody wants to be associated with the stench. I seriously doubt that would be the case if Akron played good football at a lower level. Akronites love the Aeros. They don't care that the Aeros are AA. I think Akron fans would embrace, at some reasonable level, a winning program at the FCS level or D-II. A solid winning program stocked with local kids would probably average 12-15K in home attendance and would bring positive attention to the university and fans. Hell, it's not like we'd be leaving the Big 10 for craptown. We already live in sports craptown by being in the MAC. Bottom line is that there is no upside for Akron to stay FBS in football. It's all downside. Hell, Terry came here from D-II right? Where's he going to go? He's been at lower levels for a goodly amount of his career. Who better to guide us back to where we belong, and create a winner than Terry? Gerry and Terry, bookends. That has a nice ring to it.

Loved it until the Ayn Rand reference. Seriously, Ayn Rand? The self-styled advocate of psychopathic greed and champion of "makers," who hypocritically took social security and medicare when she got old? Were those the compromises you were referring to? Ayn Rand as the impetus for any kind of "movement" went down along with Paul Ryan in last week's election.

Say what you will, but I believe that Winters would have been a good hire for this program for the long run. Let's make sure we see Terry light the world on fire before disregarding the other then-candidates for the job. Winters knew exactly what he would have been getting into here. He has spent his entire career in the grey, cold economically-challenged midwest. He would have known exactly how to build relationships with local coaches. He would have known exactly what local HS kids needed to hear to get them to commit to Akron. It remains to be seen how well Terry's persona sells in the midwest. He's as southern-fried as they come. How well is that going to work on the recruiting trail here? Will he be able to find enough leftovers in Florida to make it work? After a 1 win season I'm done proclaiming Terry as the new King of Akron. I want to see him and The Chest do some recruiting.

I am truly not trying to be a smart-ass when I ask who the "better" fan might be: The one who looks at the history of this program and has the best interests of the program, team and fans, at heart in thinking that success might be found in going "back" to FCS? Or the one who believes that anything other than blind faith in the direction of the program is disloyalty?

Thank you for the replies everyone. Further food for thought: 1) People talk about leadership and vision lacking over the last 25 years, and perhaps that's the case. How is it then that all of the other MAC programs, with the exception of Eastern Michigan, have managed to have blockbuster seasons, while we've foundered? 2) Fans have asserted (hoped is a more accurate term) during this period that UA is just one great recruiting class away, just needs a few key transfers, to make it happen. Why do you have faith that will happen when it hasn't over such a long period? 3) MDZip mentioned Paul Winters. Considering that he is from here and knows the culture (the good and the bad) I still believe that Winters would have been a good long term hire. There would have been none of the TB excitement, but it remains to be seen how TB's good-old-boy routine will translate here. I have to think Winters would have worked himself to the bone to build relationships with local coaches and would have slowly, determinedly chipped away at it. Totally different type of hire than Terry, but think about how much of the initial TB excitement has faded, and all that remains now is the work that a guy like Winters might have been very good at. Is Terry going to be good at grinding away on the recruiting front, trying to sell what Akron has to offer? Winters has been selling exactly that for his entire career. I'd be very interested in looking at Akron and Eastern Michigan as the two standouts in the MAC. What are the similarities between the two? I know very little about EMU but may do some research to see if I can find parallels that may help to explain the almost profound level of failure each has experienced in football.

It's a big deal. Someone please help me understand why EVERY other MAC program has ups and downs, but with significant ups to go with the downs, while Akron is pretty much all down since the move to D-1. Eastern Michigan may be the only other MAC program I can think of that is comparably and perpetually down, along with Akron. For those who remember 2005 so fondly, take a look at the overall record that year, plus the years before and after, and you'll be brought back to the reality that even the seasons we remember fondly weren't very good. The records under Faust were as good as any other coach since the move. How can that be? I've been hitting the board hard the last few days because I am now convinced that there is something MORE, about Akron football potential, than just that Akron hasn't "hit" on the right coach. Being unable to post at least one dominant year in the worst FBS conference in the nation, over a 25 year span, convincingly indicates that the problem goes beyond not having the right coach. Akron spent a ransom on new athletics facilities, obviously with the belief that competitive facilities would get them over the hump. That move has proven to be a waste of money and a failure. So, what is it? I'M TRYING TO GENERATE DISCUSSION. What is it about the campus, the university, the entire package, that seems so unappealing to potential recruits? Certainly somebody close to the program knows about discussions recruiters have with local coaches and kids who will go anywhere but to Akron. What do they say about the situation? Is it possible that considering geography and demographics, Akron made the jump to big time football at the wrong time? Are there too many, larger, programs in the region, such that there aren't enough FBS-quality players to go around? Is it possible that at some point after the move to FBS, Akron would have needed to cheat, to bring in a handful of high-caliber recruits by paying them under the table or offering other special incentives, and just failed to make such moves? I find it hard to believe that programs that make the jump, in an incredibly competitive and intense environment, are able to build major programs without cheating. Is it possible that Akron has just never been willing to cheat enough, to pay enough? Instead of gnashing of teeth here, why not actually dive a little deeper in our discussions of this program? If schools like Can't State and Ball State can build to the point of posting dominating years, what are the deeper reasons that Akron has never been able to? And depending on where you locate and localize those problems, what do they portend for the future of the program? Little boys make accusations of "you're no fan." Grown men discuss what's really wrong with this program. How about posters who fancy themselves as fans step up here, after 25 years of failure, and discuss.

Here are the facts. I live out west in Ventura County, California these days. I have a Verizon FIOS TV package that has about 1,000 channels of football (exaggeration) going from Thursday night through Saturday every weekend. For every Zips game this year I have tried to find them on the tube, to no avail. Many of those weeks I was able to watch online via ESPN3, and most of those weeks ESPN3 listed the Akron game as "exclusive", meaning it was being shown nowhere but on ESPN3, only online. During those weekly attempts to find Zips games on the tube I was surprised to find FCS and D-III games galore, but very few MAC games and never the Zips. On more than one occasion the Mount Union Purple Raiders were in my channel lineup on the west coast. Let that sink in a little. Want to see Colgate play Yale? check. Mount Union? check. UA Zips? Nada. We all wished Akron would make it in FBS, including me. I bought season tickets and did the tailgate thing, and before that I had season tix at the last Rubber Bowl season. I believed. I wanted it. As it turned out the only fun part was the tailgating, and those lot 9 tailgaters who read this know that's the truth. Perhaps because of the distance I now maintain, geographically, it's just easier to face the facts. This program is not an FBS program in any way other than name. The refusal to admit that fact by UA is at least partly to blame for local fan apathy, bordering on scorn. Before we moved in 2011, I couldn't understand why so many locals not only didn't care about the Zips, but heaped scorn on the team. You will note that doesn't happen with the other athletic programs. I now believe that many locals understand that the Zips as "big time football" just doesn't work. There is no history there. The Zips were always local football, Acme-Zip and whatnot, and the jump to "big time" only lends itself to increased scorn the longer the program continues to fail. You may hate hearing these things, but once you take the emotion out of the conversation and stay fact-based, it's difficult to argue that I'm off base. I want to see the program do well, and it's not going to happen at this level of play.

Quitting mentality? Go to Wikipedia, look up the Zips record since 1987, and then come back and let's talk about whose mentality is based in the real world. How about that? I want success for the Zips, at whatever level they can maintain success. Do you?

No Zach, I'll be staying, but thank you. What exactly is your definition of wasteland anyway Zach? 3 wins in 3 seasons? How many ACTUAL seats are being filled week to week at that beautiful new stadium? I noticed that for yesterday's loss to UMass, ESPN couldn't even be bothered to post real-time updates for the game. I've also noticed this season that with the proliferation of college football on our FIOS television channel lineup, I can see plenty of FCS and even D-III games, but Akron football is never, ever on TV. I currently live in California and can (this is a fact) watch Mount Union more often than I can see the Zips. What does that tell you about Akron football? If the team could consistently draw 10-15K happy fans to games, and win some, would that somehow be worse than sucking for 25 years? I find it ironic that some posters here seem absolutely crushed by the notion that UA football might be less than big-time. News flash: Akron football has never been big time. Many of us were still in school not so long ago when this program was a member of the OVC. It was a helluva lot more entertaining in those days. Being a FBS doormat is no god damn fun. Witness the 300,000+ local residents who would rather rake leaves on a Fall Saturday than drive 5 miles to watch the Zips play. This D-1/FBS thing, it was worth a shot, but it's time to settle back to the program's natural level within the FCS construct. You can be angry at me for saying these things, but you can't argue the facts.

I have no idea what you're talking about GoZips. I have not pissed down my leg, yet. No doubt my day will come. Instead of you denigrating that FCS team to the east, how about the Zips actually become at least as good as that team year in and year out? I'm no Penguins fan but it's delusional to think that, living in a fact-based world, this program has been better, or even as good, as that program has, over the years. Fans who allow, follow, cheer this sad-sack program become enablers of suckitude. How long does the beaten wife stay with the abuser?