wadszip

Exactly. Like you said, even if Akron beats ORU, they still would've had to have won out until the MAC finals to have a chance at an at-large. How has that been going? The Ohio game was bigger (but not the biggest). Tonight's loss being that it was the last home game against the No. 2 team should've been the biggest. Even with that, the Can't game now will even be bigger (and that's just to get an NIT invite). Overall, the biggest games are March 9-10, which always have been. Even if a tourney appearance doesn't happen, let's cut the KD bashing. He has drastically changed his philosophy (which was bashed on this board) for the better the past two years. This is still year one in the new-look Zips program. Let's give it time. The only way he can change his philosophy even more is to start going the JUCO route. While, I'm not 100 percent against it, lets see how this team improves next year before that even becomes a debate. Regardless of how this year ends, lets not jump off bridges. If there is not improvement next year, it's free game.

You got me stumped. Who are the "good old boys"? Name them, because I can't figure out who you are referring too. Is Quincy one of them? If so, you're wrong in saying that he is somebody who helped the Zips "loose" early in the season. If not for Q, the Zips don't beat Mississippi State. Is it Brian Walsh? If so, I also don't know how he helped the team lose early in the year. The only two early losses where he played more than 20 minutes were Duquense and Cleveland State. The Duquense loss was hardly on him. He played a solid game. He didn't play well against CSU, but that's one game. Overall, Brian deserves minutes just for the way he hits the boards (something Chuancey has been allergic to doing). It obviously isn't Brett. While he played a lot of minutes early, those have been cut back (rightfully) since conference play began. And he only played 15 tonight, so that doesn't reach your "23-minute" scenario. Trust me, I've been a big proponent of Chauncey starting, and there was no reason for him only to get 10 minutes, but to call KD a POS for doing that is low-class. Even in a best-case scenario, Chauncey is going to have to live with 20 minutes, tops. Because Q and Walsh have earned their share as well. And as bad as he's played, Brett, being a senior who came up big last year, still deserves a chance to turn his poor play around (though it has to be a short leash at this point).

I agree with this. Alex is the guy I want having the ball in any clutch situation. Even tonight, he made the correct play passing off to Nik for a wide open three that closed the deficit to 72-70. Overall, it seems like he is cutting down on the silly turnovers that happened too often in the beginning-middle part of the year. Right now, only he and Nik are playing consistent good ball.

Q hasn't seemed right offensively since the missed dunk in the ORU game.

Shhhh ... I'm saving that for the Can't loss.

lilroodude, I agree with you 100 percent on needing a shooter (and adding that could help minimize the other problems this team currently has). Despite a decent overall 3-point percentage, this team has nobody right now that defenses have to lock up on the outside (and that's kind of why the 3-point percentage is as high as it is in the first place). Unless Brett turns it around quickly, that won't come this year. Overall, While I'm a realist, and think that this team has regressed (and was never impressed with the overall product to begin with, despite the talent), the Zips still control their destiny to win the regular season title. There is also the MAC tourney, which is any team in the MAC's way of getting in the Big Dance. The season is not over. I don't think any of that happens, but even if that's the case, lets look on the bright side. As down as I am on this team right now, the future is still bright. Akron is adding two potentially great college shooters next year who are both in the 6-5, 6-6 range in Jake Kretzer and Reggie McAdams. While coming into the season people were cautiously optimistic about this team, I still believe everybody would be in agreement that 2012-13 was the year where the team can make the most noise. Replacing Nik will be tough, but Tree could step into the starting four and we'd be fine. Though it's going to be imperative for Egner to step up and play essentially the roll that Tree is playing this year. Anyway, as bad as this season is trending, I urge Zips fans (especially the Joe Akron's) to keep the faith. This team has teased us with potential, but hasn't fully "gotten it." Even if things end bad, let's assume this was a learning year, and better things are ahead.

It's now obvious that attendance hasn't really increased this season. The Can't and Ohio games had big crowds because it was Can't and Ohio. Interesting that NIU and EMU both drew over 4,000. The university must have been giving out a ton of free tickets. With that said, I agree with others who have stated the fans weren't the problem tonight. By far, the best of the season, even if it was 3,800.

Who cares at this point. They aren't going to Can't and winning. Even if BG beats Buffalo in the finale. The Zips will go to the NIT and lose in the first round. This team hasn't improved at all this season.

TB is definitely hitting the Cincinnati area hard right now. I suspect he'll work his way back up to Northeast Ohio as the recruiting season progresses.

As mentioned on the basketball board, George Thomas was on All Bets are Off on STO yesterday talking Zips.

One more thing, I'll add. And though it's hardly revenue producing, imagine what the University of Akron could do in men's wrestling if it ever started a program? There is no doubt in my mind that it couldn't be a national elite program (Can't, which does have a program, is nationally ranked). UA has Wadsworth, Walsh Jesuit and Massillon Perry (three of the top 50 or so high school programs in the nation) in its back yard. That's not even counting Barberton, which has been keeping its top kids away from Wadsworth the last couple of years. Barberton, BTW, gave Perry (a national top 25 team) its closest run at sectionals in quite a while. Overall, on the men's side, UA, if it gets its football program in place (and maybe a move up could lead to wrestling ... though title 9 implications would be in place), could easily have marquee programs in four sports ... soccer, wrestling, basketball and track ... That's not even counting football.

If you're just basing it off of past football results, then yes, Toledo has a better chance of joining the Alliance (not even considering the Big East since it's out of the question for anybody right now). However, when comparing the two schools moving forward, Akron has just as good of a case (if not better). Toledo vs. Akron head-to-head: Enrollment: Akron (29,000), Toledo (23,000) ... Plus does Toledo have any branch campuses? Akron now has Wayne (Orrville/Wooster), Medina and Lakewood (Cleveland) locations. Academics: A wash. Both are open enrollment. Both have similar endowments (Toledo slightly higher). Both are identical in research spending (though Akron has produced more results ... http://www.medcitynews.com/2009/01/technol...h-institutions/ ). Toledo has an advantage in having a med and pharmacy school, but Akron at least has NEOCOM and partnerships with the Cleveland Clinic. Akron also has programs/degrees that Toledo doesn't offer. TV market: Akron (17), Toledo (73) ... Though even if you take Cleveland out of Akron's number, it would still rank higher than Toledo... just the Akron-Canton area alone puts UA in almost the same size market as Buffalo (which is ranked No. 51). And since, technically, Cleveland is part of Akron's market, it's not factual to separate the two. Overall athletics: Akron (102), Toledo (185), according to Director's Cup standings .... http://thedirectorscup.com/wp-content/uplo...nfstandings.pdf Football program: Toledo by a mile. However, both play in the two nicest facilities in the MAC. It's wait-and-see with Akron, but with Terry Bowden in the fold, Akron has as much potential as anybody in the current MAC. Basketball program: Akron by a mile. However, Toledo plays in a better facility and seems to be on the upswing. At the same time, Akron, led by Jim Tressel, is fundraising to build a new arena. Recruiting potential: Akron by a mile. There is no comparison to the amount of football recruits produced in the Cleveland-Akron-Canton area to the Toledo area. ... probably a generous 4-1 ratio advantage on Akron's part. On the basketball side, it's closer, though Cleveland-Akron-Canton is still likely ahead by a 2-to-1 ratio (if not more). With that said, if the Alliance expands up to 24, both Toledo and Akron would probably get an invite. Having two Ohio schools, located in two separate markets, makes sense for both the Alliance and UA and UT. It puts the league in the heavily populated Northern Ohio markets, plus gives UA and UT travel partners. And the schools could build a nice rivalry. I know some may not receive that well on here (due to the Can't rivalry) and some on Toledo boards will say the same thing (due to BG). But lets face it, both the Cleveland-Akron and Toledo TV markets (especially with UT's football success) will be coveted. Both markets have two schools located within each. Neither market is big enough to take on two. I think it will be up to the universities of Akron and Toledo to decide if making more money (and enhancing their brands) is worth giving up their traditional rivalries. For me, it's a no-brainer, and from what I know about the University of Akron leadership, it's a no-brainer to them. You make the move and don't look back. Even if the Alliance loses members, worst case is you begin to start plucking more MAC schools, then you're back to square-one, but now with a head start money-wise. Just from gauging information on what it appears conferences are targeting, the most attractive MAC schools are, IMO: 1. Akron - Can't could be here if not for the sub-par football facilities with no immediate plans to replace Dix. (A "Cleveland" school would be highly coveted since it's the largest market in the country without a BCS team). 2. Toledo - BG could be here ... actually it would be way behind Buffalo ... but regardless, it has neither the football or basketball facility to compete with UT. Plus, UT is the Toledo school while BG just happens to be in the Toledo market. 3. Buffalo - Good market, decent athletics. Buffalo's best selling point, though, is on the academic side, especially its huge endowment. However, I'm not sure if Buffalo's academics outweighs Toledo's football program. Though you can make a case for Buffalo at No. 2 (larger market than Toledo, better academics). It's close. 4. Northern Illinois - Of course NIU fans will say they should rank No. 1 due to the Chicago market. But while, technically being in the Chicago market, NIU is 65 miles west of Chicago (you know, the Iowa way) and surrounded by cornfields. In fact, it's just as close to Rockford (35 or so miles) as it is Aurora (the far west fringe of the Chicagoland area). One of the things people use against Akron is that it can't capture the Cleveland market being that it is located 35 miles from Cleveland. Let's use the same logic with NIU. How can NIU capture Chicago when it's such a remote place within the (albeit larger Chicago market)? For example, the geographic mid-point of the Cleveland-Akron market (population wise) would lie somewhere around Twinsburg (19 miles from Akron ... and Twinsburg, like Akron, are both in Summit County.) In the Chicago TV market, the geographic mid-point would be somewhere near downtown Chicago (since, unlike Cleveland-Akron-Canton, the Chicago market is highly concentrated around Chicago itself). NIU is 65 miles from that mid-point. That's not even considering Chicago already has Northwestern 13 miles to the north, Notre Dame 96 miles to the east (not much further than NIU. plus Chicago's population is more eastern/southern based rather than western based to begin with), and Chicago also happens to be the hub for Big Ten alumni. Also, like I've already stated, you can take "Cleveland" out of Akron's equation and it's still a borderline top 50 market. If you take "Chicago" out of NIU, Dekalb might as well be Sheboygan, Wisc. 5. Ball State - While technically in the No. 25 Indianapolis market, Muncie, like NIU to Chicago, is a fringe location, being about 60 miles from Indy. And Indiana is a state that doesn't care that much (outside of ND) about college football. 6. Western Michigan - Being in the No. 39 Kalamazoo-Grand Rapids-Battle Creek market sounds nice. But considering the largest of those places is Grand Rapids, and its 50 miles away from WMU, have fun selling that. Nobody else (if you already count Can't and BG) has a chance. Ohio, and I kind of feel bad for the Bobcats if not for the pompous fan base, has built a solid football and basketball program, and has a large fan base. However, it has no market to speak of. If anybody wants to see the current MAC stay in place, it's OU. If it had any true market presence (not "we have alumni all over the state" ... like other MAC schools don't), it would be right up there in the mix. Miami technically has the Cincinnati TV market, but already got beat to the punch by Cincinnati. Like Cleveland-Akron, or Toledo, none of those markets are big enough to support a second team higher than MAC level. Again, feel bad for Miami due to its rich history, but it is what it is. Eastern Michigan is in the Detroit market, but it also has Ann Arbor 11 miles to the northwest. Yeah, good luck with that. CMU may be even more screwed. Mount Pleasant may as well be the UP. Even OU fans think Mount Pleasant is remote.

Albuquerque is more than 700 miles from Waco. Obviously, still a lot closer than Akron, but not close enough where Baylor fans are going to pack the building. It doesn't really matter though, the projected opponent and venue will change five more times from now to Selection Sunday.

According to scoutingohio.com, Akron offered three players from Moeller today: RB Keith Watkins (also offered by WVU today; already had offers from Kentucky, Cincinnati, B.C., Northwestern, Minnesota) http://www.scoutingohio.com/index.php/view...ame=Watkins_K13 LB Shane Jones (also offered by Oklahoma today; already had offers from Michigan, Nebraska, Kentucky, Minnesota, Arizona) http://www.scoutingohio.com/index.php/view...87&name=SJ8 OL Alex Gall (already had offers from Kentucky, Toledo, Ohio and Bowling Green) http://www.scoutingohio.com/index.php/view...p;name=alexgall Not sure if the Zips will have a shot at any of the three (based on offers Gall is the best bet), but trying to make some inroads at Moeller is never a bad idea. Overall, it seems like TB and company are going to focus the instate recruiting efforts most heavily in greater Cleveland-Akron-Canton and Cincinnati. Again, not a bad idea.

Great post. This is spot on. I and think it correlates to what I have speculated. Brett is comfortable as a 30 (or close to that) minute a game player. It's nothing physical, just that he hasn't adjusted to being less than that, and it's now a mental block. And when you consider that this team has Walsh starting at the 2 (and I agree he is a more dynamic player than Brett) and Chauncey at the 3 (also a more dynamic player), Brett needs to realize his place ... and that's not at 30 minutes a night at the 2 ... or even at the 3, which he's capable of playing at the collegiate level. Nobody is going to get those kind of minutes, especially when you consider that Walsh is a 2 (who can play the 1), Q is a 1-2-3 (more of a 2-3) and Chauncey is a 3 (that can also play the 2). It's still essentially four guys competing for two spots (2 and 3), especially since Abreu is the only true 1 and is as close to logging 30 minutes a game as anybody on this team. Brett needs to realize his place (15-20 minutes a night) and perform well in those minutes. We've seen this from pretty much everybody else in the rotation. The answer to this team competing at its highest level isn't simply boosting Brett's minutes so that he plays well, but rather getting Brett to realize that he can be effective despite playing less minutes. That is the key. Will it happen? I hope. But considering he's a senior now, he may just be wired (I'm assuming he was always a big fish in a small pond in WVA) to think that he is entitled to star-type minutes. And to be fair to Brett, he performed pretty well last year playing star-type minutes. But this isn't last year, and this roster, with Gilliam and Walsh eligible, is way better than who he was competing against a year ago.

Right now, he's just trying too hard to get that slump-busting three. It's obvious that he's struggling and pressing too hard to try to snap out of it. He just needs to relax and go with the flow of the game. And that flow isn't jacking up a 3-pointer as soon as he gets the ball on the wing (which he did twice tonight). Personally, I think he needs to realize that he is never going to play 30 minutes a night this year, nobody on this team will. Even Zeke, who didn't commit a foul, only played 27 minutes. This team is nine deep and all nine are going to play. I think if he realizes that and accepts that as reality, he can produce a productive 20 minutes per game. If he can't come to that grasp, and he tries to hard to prove that he's a 30-minute a game player, the best move could be to take him completely out of the rotation. Obviously, that would hurt the Zips' depth, but right now, Brett is hurting the team way more than being a man down in the rotation due to the fact that he is forcing the issue. Like Zeke (when he is called for an early foul), the biggest thing holding Brett back seems to be the mental side. Granted, I'm no shrink, but to me, it appears that Brett thinks should be playing 30 minutes a game and is trying too hard to prove that should be the case. When in fact, he could be shooting 50 percent from 3-point land and scoring 12-14 points a game and he still wouldn't reach that mark, not with capable guys like Chauncey, Q and Brian Walsh competing for minutes at that same position. Those other guys I've mentioned seem like they all understand that and aren't letting the number of minutes affect their games. Brett just needs to get on that same page. After watching this team at least 25 times this year (either in person, TV or streaming) this team doesn't have a lot of me guys. Brett can reverse the ball on the wing, move to a spot, get open and get the ball back for an open look. He doesn't need to press to get his. It'll come within the flow. That's something Chauncey seems to have grasped and guess what, he's been getting a ton of wide open looks and is knocking those shots down ... and as much as I like Chauncey's overall game, he's not the pure shooter Brett is. But right now, he's a WAY better option.

Overall, good stuff. And I hope they keep posting their stuff here too. I enjoyed watching it. I too noticed that they had Zeke still trailing Romeo for the all-time blocks lead. However, what caught my eye more than anything was the guy who couldn't answer the question. Are you seriously telling me that there are people on campus who don't know who Zeke Marshall is? I know people who aren't Zips fans and couldn't name one player. But at least, if asked, they would respond "I don't know his name, but that 7-footer you got." At least they'd get partial credit. To be fair, the kid was probably caught off guard and was a little nervous, come come on, gotta do better than that.

But I thought the biased Cleveland media doesn't care about Akron? Seriously, I'll echo some of the sentiments here in that I thought the Zips played their best basketball of the year in the first half, outside of 3-point shooting. Still, they were something like 20 of 33 from the field, despite only being 2 of 10 on 3-pointers. On top of that, they had, IIR, 13 assists and only four turnovers. I'll give Bowling Green all the credit in the world for sticking around. Like Dave said, they hit shot after tough shot. Any other MAC team, on this night, would've been in a 20-point hole at the half. The second half wasn't as clean, but still solid overall except for the couple minute spurt with about 4 minutes left that allowed BG to pull within four. Again, I gotta give credit to BG, though. They played a hell of a game. The 11-point margin was in no way indicative of how well the Falcons played. Just thinking about other recent home games, the Zips played way better tonight than they did against Toledo (14 point win), EMU (30 point win), NIU (24 point win) and Miami (15 point win). One more thing that I'd like to point out, Zeke played 27 minutes without being called for a foul. He delivered with one of his top three offensive games of the year ... posting up and finishing and even knocking down a 15-foot jumper. When Zeke isn't called for a cheap foul early, he seems to play like a man possessed. Well, this is the MAC and Zeke isn't likely to see a game called as clean as it was tonight ever again. Hopefully, though, when he is called for a cheap foul, he won't let it affect him. We saw first-hand how effective he can be when his head is in a game. Maybe a game like tonight could be the mental turning point for him, because when he doesn't perform well, it's not anything physical, it's between the ears, and the Zips end result suffers.

Haha, yeah, good catch.

No doubt. Temple and Memphis are all the proof anybody needs to see that as long as: A. You are located in a big Market and B. have a solid basketball program (with the facility to match), the Big East is interested.

Great point, and something I didn't even get into with the numbers I posted. I'd add that the Zips are more than "competitive" in a few sports. You can make a strong case that, at least on the men's side, that Akron has the league's top program (basketball, track and field, soccer) in three of the seven sports it fields against MAC competition.

I wonder what that does for Villanova, which is moving its football program to FBS status? I can't imagine the Big East will take both Philadelphia schools for football. Plus, with Navy heading to the Big East in 2015, the league would be at 14, and may decide that's where it wants to stay for the time being. Could this snub prompt Villanova to move all its programs out of the Big East and into the CUSA/MtW "Alliance?" If so, the Alliance suddenly adds a great basketball program, something it sorely needs in the eastern half. To me, having Akron join the Alliance with Villanova is more appealing than joining with Temple. The Big East now seems out the question at this point (which there was no shot at anyway). However, as I pointed out before, the Big East continues its market grab, getting back into the No. 4 Philadelphia market. If this move is official, the No. 17 Cleveland-Akron market is now the largest in the country without a FBS football program. With how this is playing out, I'd welcome a move to the Alliance. It would allow for the Zips to compete with schools with higher profiles. Akron can continue its fundraising for a basketball arena and then hope in 2015 or beyond that the Big East decides it wants to expand further ... or it loses a few members (then the debate would be what's better, The Alliance or Big East).

Since all the conference shuffling has been brought back to the forefront, I've been reading a lot of message boards regarding the topic and thought I'd try to put some things in perspective. Reading some other boards, there is an overwhelming common belief that Akron is "dead weight" in the MAC, and people think that 1-2 win years are the norm for the Zips' football program. When in reality, Akron is in the midst of its worst three-year run in the program's 117 year history. Never before has Akron only won five games (playing the same percentage of games) in a three-year span as right now. What's most maddening about that, is that the last three years (the InfoCision era) was supposed to be the Zips' new golden-age. The university absolutely blew it by hanging on to Brookhart (who outside of living off Lee Owens' recruits and landing Getsy) for a year too long. Then following it up with what may be considered the biggest abomination in college football history (when considering what was at stake) in Rob Ianello. In reality, it's that ineptitude that puts Akron behind in the "court of public opinion race" to begin with. However, since Akron joined the MAC in 1992, its record against current league members is 70-99 (that's including the last three years). Not good, but I'm sure not the worst in the league like so many people are claiming. In fact, without looking it up, I'd bet that Can't, for one, is significantly worse. On a head-to-head basis, the Zips record is (from worst to best): Western Michigan - 2-11 (.181) Miami - 4-17 (.235) Toledo - 2-6 (.250) Bowling Green - 5-9 (.357) Temple - 4-6 (400) ... coincidentally, three of Akron's wins in that span were when Temple was in the Big East. Ball State - 4-6 (.400) Central Michigan - 6-15 (.400) Eastern Michigan - 6-15 (.400) Northern Illinois - 3-4 (.429) Ohio - 9-20 (.450) Can't - 13-7 (.650) Buffalo - 9-4 (.692) When looking at this, outside of WMU, Miami, Toledo and Bowling Green, Akron has played every other school to at least a .400 record. Again, not good, but not as bad as people like to make it. To go a little further, the Zips' Rubber Bowl MAC record (1992-2008) was 67-78 (.462). That puts the program at mediocre status despite having arguably the worst facilities in D1 football. In the InfoCision era, though, the Zips are 3-24 in league play (.181). Taking a near .500 team (in the worst facility) to a .181 team in the best facility just doesn't add up, outside of what Zips fans know ... the coaching was horrible. Terry Bowden is no dummy. No way does he take this position if he didn't think he could turn it around, and quickly. It's funny reading posts on other sites, especially from Ohio fans who think the Bobcats are now some sort of MAC power because of the program's recent success (almost all under Frank Solich). Considering Akron had more winning seasons from 1992-2005 (the year Solich was hired) than Ohio in that same period should be a stark reminder to Bobcat fans (and every other fan base) that the right coach can make a huge difference ... especially in Akron's case, considering the stadium and its location within the biggest stockpile of talent in Ohio. It's actually funny reading what people are posting about Akron. To me, it's obvious they are scared about what the program is about to become now that the right coaches are in place. We've been in this league for 20 years and already built the best basketball program (sorry Can't, you had your run in the early-to-mid 200s) and now have the pieces in place to building the best football program. The truth makes fans of longtime MAC schools mad even thinking about Akron getting that missing link (football). I can't wait until that happens. Edit: I left out a Zips win over Temple, which makes the Zips 4-6 against the Owls.

Too bad they aren't archiving all the interviews. Lewis, a Cleveland native and Ohio grad, btw, went on for a good 3-4 minutes in his monolog about how good of a hire Bowden and Amato were. I would've liked to have heard his discussion with George Thomas.

Here's something I've been thinking about, how does the STO contract work in regards to Akron? I know STO has signed on for the entire MAC, but it seems (at least for basketball) it's been Akron and Can't centric. So far, Akron and Can't have both been on four times (most in the MAC). That makes sense, though, because it's two of the better teams and STO is a Cleveland-based network. From looking at the schedule, Akron probably would be on at least three more times, if possible. Sunday's game at Ohio was originally a Saturday game that would've been picked up for sure if not for ESPNU coming in and scooping it (and making it a Sunday night game). Then the Buffalo game on the 29th probably will be the STO game (though Ohio at Can't will compete for that). Lastly, the March 3 finale against Can't would've been a no-brainer STO game, but again, ESPN picked that up. Anyway, if it wasn't for ESPN (first-tier rights) intervening, STO likely would've featured Akron in 7 of its 20 MAC games (35 percent). If that was the case, it would be the most in the conference (though if Can't is picked up for its Ohio game over Akron-Buffalo, Can't would have 7 and Akron 6). Regardless of that, my point is this that Akron and Can't are STO's bread-and-butter If a team in the MAC is going to be coveted by another league it's going to be either Akron or Can't. Why? 1. TV market potential 2. The schools are the top 2 overall athletic departments in the league. Why Akron would get the nod over Can't? 1. Facilities and commitment to future athletics (especially in the big two sports). With that being said, if STO loses one of its two bread-and-butter programs (presumably Akron), could STO rework the contract so that it can (being Cleveland-based) make Akron essentially its "own college network" for lack of a better term? In that it secures all of the Zips' second-tier rights, but then keeps the MAC deal as its third-tier choice? If so, that would be huge in the negotiations for Akron when it comes to trying to get to a more lucrative league. Not only would the potential of bringing in the No. 17 Cleveland market come into play, nationally. But if Akron (which is based in the Cleveland-Akron TV market) can bring in a lucrative regional network (which STO is), it could make the Zips (or begrudgingly the Flashes) an even more intriguing choice. And that's not even considering what either school brings to the table as far as expanding recruiting grounds. While "recruiting" may be behind market share in general, it can't be counted out. And the greater Cleveland-Akron-Canton area produces more big-time football and basketball recruits than any other area in Ohio. Considering Ohio is a top 10 state in both (top 5 in football), that's significant.