Former Wisconsin RB, now jailed, Lance Smith Considers YSU and Akron

[eguins]

Lance Smith, a Warren, OH native that went to Howland HS and then continued his playing career at Wisconsin has been jailed for 20 days for a misdemeanor charge in Madison. The sentence could be shortened to 8 days with good behavior. In court, Smith says he plans to return back to Ohio to play football. According to the Madison Capital Times newspaper "He is now deciding whether to attend Youngstown State, where his older brother played football, the University of Akron, or Ohio University in Athens."This is the first article that mentions Akron. All the other articles mention YSU-Ohio-Nebraska. Many put YSU as the front-runner where he would be able to begin playing immediately, and would not have to sit out a year if he attended Akron or Ohio.I'll keep you folks updated, figure you would want to know. He is a local guy to Youngstown and YSU fans have been following this very closely.

[Dr Z]

[zen]

what was this misdemeanor?

[ZachTheZip]

This guy has problems following the rules, according to the Wisconsin message boards. He didn't take well to being disciplined by the coaches.I don't want a problem kid on the team. At least Devoe Torrence was acquitted.

[Zipsrifle]

This guy has problems following the rules, according to the Wisconsin message boards. He didn't take well to being disciplined by the coaches.I don't want a problem kid on the team. At least Devoe Torrence was acquitted.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. We'll keep him in check. He just needs a second chance. Just because he got in trouble once doesn't mean he will do it again. Besides, he's only beating up women!! Did I mention he's a great player?!?! WELCOME ABOARD!!!

[Wally B]

Risk players w/ attitudes is what got JD to the point he is today after the amazing 2005 season, i doubt he would go for it. If he does, it shows he didn't learn anything the first go-round......

[ziptrumpet87]

I hope we're not on the verge of becoming "Thug U"

[eguins]

Youngstown State took [RB] Marcus Mason from Illinois after getting into legal problems there. He got straightened out in Youngstown, set many records, and is now with the Redskins. Youngstown State also took [TE] Louis Irizarry from Ohio State after getting into very similar problems as Smith.Both came to Youngstown, both had ZERO incidents here.... Who would've thought in the 15th most dangerous city in America!!! :D

[eguins]

Heard from 3-4 people that are reliable that he will be a Penguin. This is them, not me. I'll try to hook up my sources to see what they know. It's down to YSU and Akron though...

[zen]

This guy has problems following the rules, according to the Wisconsin message boards. He didn't take well to being disciplined by the coaches.I don't want a problem kid on the team. At least Devoe Torrence was acquitted.

You obviously haven't been paying attention. We'll keep him in check. He just needs a second chance. Just because he got in trouble once doesn't mean he will do it again. Besides, he's only beating up women!! Did I mention he's a great player?!?! WELCOME ABOARD!!!

hmm... there's this really huge gray aren't.... so I can't seem to blame you for your confusion on the difference in the matter. In fact, it's such a gray issue, it's probably going to take me many paragraphs just to elaborate. Are you ready?convicted vs not guilty.hmmm.... too difficult for you?

[Dr Z]

I'm not sure why people insist on everything being black or white (one way or the other)?Every student is different. Some kids make mistakes and learn, some don't. That's life.When you are Akron or even YSU, you must evaluate each situation. It's easy for a big ten team to cut their loses. They have eight kids just like the one they release. Akron doesn't. Hopefully we willbe at a point one day where we don't become interested in players with any sort of mark on their record.But until then, coaches will try to save there job by collecting the best talent they can. I'm sure everyfan on or board would prefer that we don't have to take a kid with any bad press. But right now it seems we do.PS I hope we get this kid just because he is from my high school.

[zen]

I actually agree with you, Dr.Z, when it comes to your own personal opinion about someone or something, you can have all the gray area you want, and all the moral relativism or absolutes that you choose. I also think that the program can exercise digression as it chooses, and decide who they think will be a fit and who will be a disruption. It's their program and they gotta live with their decisions.It's just that sometimes I see people trying to blur the lines about the law. There is no blur. Innocent until proven guilty.So, if someone "thinks" or "feels" or "believes" that Devoe was guilty, then just say it that way... as an opinion.ziptrumpet87 saying 'I hope we're not on the verge of becoming "Thug U"' is an opinion. Great. Not good is Zipsrifle was trying to make a parallel to giving someone convicted of battery (did he actually get convicted yet. I didn't read that part, BTW) to someone who was not convicted of anything at all when he said 'He just needs a second chance. Just because he got in trouble once doesn't mean he will do it again'.I know I'm over-reacting. I'm sorry. But if he wasn't convicted, then he is INNOCENT.

[you am i]

If a person is not convicted after a trial it means there was not proof beyond a reasonable doubt that he is guilty. And sometimes cases are dismissed prior to trial because of an evidence or procedural problem, even though the defendant comitted the act charged. So, "not guilty" or "case dismissed" does not mean innocent.I work in the judicial system and based on my experience, I would feel very safe saying that many criminal defendants who are not convicted after a trial did, in fact, commit the offense charged. Frequently, jurors who acquit will admit afterwards that they thought the defendant was probably guilty, but it was not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. If so, they properly found the defendant not guilty, even though they were convinced that he probably did it.Having said that, guilty or innocent, convicted or not convicted, each young man's situation is unique. Some young men do something incredibly stupid one time and learn a lesson from it. Some are criminals. A coach should not automatically write a kid off if he believes it was a one-time mistake, even though it is inevitable that sometimes it will turn out that his trust is misplaced. I'm a firm believer in second chances. Of course, you have to take into consideration the circumstances of each case, but in general I don't begrudge a school that takes a chance on a player, unless there's an established pattern of anti-social begavior or the coach has a history of using bad judgment in these matters.

[zen]

I work in the judicial system and based on my experience, I would feel very safe saying that many criminal defendants who are not convicted after a trial did, in fact, commit the offense charged.

You would feel very safe saying that, as your opinion. On a case by case basis, when you are speaking in reference to an american citizen who was not convicted of a crime, then when you say you feel they were guilty, you are stating your opinion... legally, they are innocent regardless of how you feel.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Can someone please print the listing of the "thugs" JD has recruited. I'll define "Thug" as someone who's been convicted of a crime.I follow the program pretty closely and I just must have missed something. Igor punched a kid two years ago. Pace (Owens recruit, BTW) got busted for weed and a gun. Who else?The kids from a couple recruiting classes ago were basically kids that had no business being in college. Good athletes, but bad students. Some were absolute jerks. But where's the arrests and thuggery? Please list.When I see a school with the "Thug U" moniker, I see Barry Switzer's OU teams, Miami U's teams...the Zips are as much "Thug U" as CVCA is "Thug HS." Recruiting is like a 401k. You can't go balls-out on "aggressive" funds, or you'll lose your ass. JD's recruiting 401k was to heavy on "aggressive" athletes for two seasons, and he lost. Now, Zips recruiting is more balanced. But you still need to have around 10% in "aggressive." If you don't, you'll lose all-the-same (does it really matter if you lose because your players flunked out, or because you recruited 3.0 GPA RB's that ran 4.85 40's?). No. It is still a loss.

[you am i]

I work in the judicial system and based on my experience, I would feel very safe saying that many criminal defendants who are not convicted after a trial did, in fact, commit the offense charged.

You would feel very safe saying that, as your opinion. On a case by case basis, when you are speaking in reference to an american citizen who was not convicted of a crime, then when you say you feel they were guilty, you are stating your opinion... legally, they are innocent regardless of how you feel.

Yeah, that's my opinion, based on 24 years of courtroom experience.BTW, there's a specific proceeding in which an acquitted defendant can get a declaration of innocence, usually for the purpose of collecting damages from the state. Sam Shepard's son tried that route a few years ago and failed. I'm sure we both hope that Devoe has no further legal troubles and has a productive career at UA and beyond.

[UADavid]

I work in the judicial system and based on my experience, I would feel very safe saying that many criminal defendants who are not convicted after a trial did, in fact, commit the offense charged.

You would feel very safe saying that, as your opinion. On a case by case basis, when you are speaking in reference to an american citizen who was not convicted of a crime, then when you say you feel they were guilty, you are stating your opinion... legally, they are innocent regardless of how you feel.

Actually, legally, they are not guilty. There is a real difference between being innocent and not guilty. Ask any lawyer.

[GP1]

Can someone please print the listing of the "thugs" JD has recruited. I'll define "Thug" as someone who's been convicted of a crime.I follow the program pretty closely and I just must have missed something. Igor punched a kid two years ago. Pace (Owens recruit, BTW) got busted for weed and a gun. Who else?The kids from a couple recruiting classes ago were basically kids that had no business being in college. Good athletes, but bad students. Some were absolute jerks. But where's the arrests and thuggery? Please list.When I see a school with the "Thug U" moniker, I see Barry Switzer's OU teams, Miami U's teams...the Zips are as much "Thug U" as CVCA is "Thug HS." Recruiting is like a 401k. You can't go balls-out on "aggressive" funds, or you'll lose your ass. JD's recruiting 401k was to heavy on "aggressive" athletes for two seasons, and he lost. Now, Zips recruiting is more balanced. But you still need to have around 10% in "aggressive." If you don't, you'll lose all-the-same (does it really matter if you lose because your players flunked out, or because you recruited 3.0 GPA RB's that ran 4.85 40's?). No. It is still a loss.

Nice post CK. When I was in school, we had a huge problem with guys getting arrested, bar fights, on campus dust ups, etc and that is not happening now. I would actually change the word for your definition of thug to criminal. People who use the word thug actually have a more disgusting motivation behind their usage of the word and it usually centers around their dislike of those who, let's just say, don't look like they do and don't come from the same class structure they do.I've told this story and I'll tell it again. When I was growing up as a Catholic kid in a small town in Ohio, there were always a bunch of old timers (when I was a kid, "old timer" meant anyone over 30 years old) who sat around saying, "If they put every good Catholic kid on one team, nobody could beat them." I always wanted to say (looking back, I wish I had the guts back then to say the things I do to people now), "If they took the best of the rest, the Catholics would get killed because they would be too weak and slow." Basically, the old timers were thinking one thing and not saying what they meant which was, "I'm uncomfortable with the number of black kids playing in sports these days because they are different than what I am used to watching. What I am going to do is create a fantasy for myself that allows me to feel good about myself without calling the black kids nasty names. I could use a word like thug because it could relate to anyone, but all my friends will know exactly what I mean."You're absolutely right on another point CK, there are many people on this board who would much rather lose year after year than take a risk to actually win something. It's the curse of NE Ohio sports fans. They are most happy when they are looking for their next qb or head coach because their team is losing than when they are winning. I actually think it is an epidemic in NE Ohio that started when the Browns left years ago. Many Zips fans are also Browns fans and they bring the same sickness to the program and this board. It's the most bizarre thing I have ever seen.

[uafan]

Ummm, we are losing year after year!

[ZippyAlum]

I am all for giving these guys a second chance but I think they need to prove themselves first by spending at least a semester on the team as a non-scholarship athlete. That way they are motivated to go to class and get the grades to "earn" a chance to wear the jersey and represent the school. There should be many resources available to them like study table and tutors. We continue to lose scholarships by having players not meet the NCAA standards and they end up being ineligible. No matter what their 40 time is they are of no use to us and actually cost us in scholarship money. College athletes spend a tremendous amount of time at practice, on the road to games, and in meetings, films, and treatment. They need to be masters of time management to be able to handle their school work and their team responsibilities. If a kid does not show the desire to meet these standards then I say let him go somewhere else.

[Wally B]

Agreed, i'm more worried about poor attitude/teamwork and academics than i am about a player making a "mistake" in the legal sense...... Egregious errors can be corrected but we don't need to add personnel problems

[RootforRoo44]

I am all for giving these guys a second chance but I think they need to prove themselves first by spending at least a semester on the team as a non-scholarship athlete. That way they are motivated to go to class and get the grades to "earn" a chance to wear the jersey and represent the school. There should be many resources available to them like study table and tutors. We continue to lose scholarships by having players not meet the NCAA standards and they end up being ineligible. No matter what their 40 time is they are of no use to us and actually cost us in scholarship money. College athletes spend a tremendous amount of time at practice, on the road to games, and in meetings, films, and treatment. They need to be masters of time management to be able to handle their school work and their team responsibilities. If a kid does not show the desire to meet these standards then I say let him go somewhere else.

I think you are forgetting one important fact: WE ARE NOT USC, FLORIDA, OR OHIO STATE. We have to take guys like this without making them "prove their allegiance". They aren't going to have this want and passion to play at a school they barely know about. We have no incentives for them to want to stay here or any school like us that is a dime a dozen. We have to hope it works out and be optimistic because we all know that schools like Can't State will not make them do such a thing and we all know who they would choose if it came down to playing right away and not being on a short leash or being on the edge of getting kicked out.

[BigAppleBucky]

Lance Smith will be missed by Wisconsin. He would have been the fastest of our four top running backs. Probably the best pass receiver as well.But he really wore out his welcome in Madison. Good luck to him after his 20 day jail time.

[zen]

Nice post CK. When I was in school, we had a huge problem with guys getting arrested, bar fights, on campus dust ups, etc and that is not happening now. I would actually change the word for your definition of thug to criminal. People who use the word thug actually have a more disgusting motivation behind their usage of the word and it usually centers around their dislike of those who, let's just say, don't look like they do and don't come from the same class structure they do.I've told this story and I'll tell it again. When I was growing up as a Catholic kid in a small town in Ohio, there were always a bunch of old timers (when I was a kid, "old timer" meant anyone over 30 years old) who sat around saying, "If they put every good Catholic kid on one team, nobody could beat them." I always wanted to say (looking back, I wish I had the guts back then to say the things I do to people now), "If they took the best of the rest, the Catholics would get killed because they would be too weak and slow." Basically, the old timers were thinking one thing and not saying what they meant which was, "I'm uncomfortable with the number of black kids playing in sports these days because they are different than what I am used to watching. What I am going to do is create a fantasy for myself that allows me to feel good about myself without calling the black kids nasty names. I could use a word like thug because it could relate to anyone, but all my friends will know exactly what I mean."You're absolutely right on another point CK, there are many people on this board who would much rather lose year after year than take a risk to actually win something. It's the curse of NE Ohio sports fans. They are most happy when they are looking for their next qb or head coach because their team is losing than when they are winning. I actually think it is an epidemic in NE Ohio that started when the Browns left years ago. Many Zips fans are also Browns fans and they bring the same sickness to the program and this board. It's the most bizarre thing I have ever seen.

I believe this kind of honesty is rarely spoken. I think that SOME people do this on subconscious level. It's not necessarily about overt racism, for several reasons. (1) They do it which kids that are different, whether it be skin color, socio-economic class, or even religion. (2) It's more of a socio-psychological issue, as you alluded to. As you said, they just don't wanna see the reigns of their old sport handed over to someone else, because it makes it more difficult for them to identify with it.... and as many of us know, being a fan in sports is just spectators with vicarious pride and identification with an athlete or team. Anyway, it doesn't have to be race, but I think a level of hypocrisy (often subconscious) sometimes becomes quite apparent. When a white kid screws up, he made a mistake, or was led astray or had bad influence. When the black kid screws up, it's a sign that he's a thug. Some people don't catch themselves doing this.

[ZachTheZip]

Looks like he ended up at Memphis.