Switching Conferences

[Blue & Gold]

This topic was tossed around a bit in the Penn State vs. Akron 2009 thread, but there were about 3-to-4 different conversations taking place in that thread, so I thought I'd start a new one. I know a move to the Big East would be supreme and a "no brainer" - let's not start fighting over that term here But I'm not too sold on C-USA. I'd as soon stay in the MAC than make a move to C-USA. I really like the MAC and our rivalries with Ohio, Miami & Can't. I love to hate those guys and I look forward to those games every year. It pains me when we lose to them and I'm thrilled when we beat them. I honestly think I'd really miss those games if we jumped conferences. I know I'm a total Zips homeboy and so my judgement is clouded. So my question is this: would jumping to C-USA be a good move for the Zips? The added travel expense would be enormous and we wouldn't have any natural rivals, save, perhaps Marshall. Is my liking Ohio, Miami and Can't only a product of following the Zips over the past howevermany years, or are those genuinely good rivalries? I think they're quite natural. I don't know. Right now, given the choice between C-USA and the MAC, I say stay in the MAC! Thoughts?

[zippyrifle32]

I don't have the numbers at hand, but I believe the money from tv contracts etc in CUSA far exceed those of the MAC. I think if you look at revenue vs. expenses we would still be out on top money wise moving to CUSA. Personally, it's not that big of a deal to me and if it happens, great! If not, other things might come our way eventually.

[Z.I.P.]

This topic was tossed around a bit in the Penn State vs. Akron 2009 thread, but there were about 3-to-4 different conversations taking place in that thread, so I thought I'd start a new one. I know a move to the Big East would be supreme and a "no brainer" - let's not start fighting over that term here But I'm not too sold on C-USA. I'd as soon stay in the MAC than make a move to C-USA. I really like the MAC and our rivalries with Ohio, Miami & Can't. I love to hate those guys and I look forward to those games every year. It pains me when we lose to them and I'm thrilled when we beat them. I honestly think I'd really miss those games if we jumped conferences. I don't know. Right now, given the choice between C-USA and the MAC, I say stay in the MAC! Thoughts?

B&G,Re-read your own comments, please. You want to move to the Big East, but you DON'T want to move to CUSA. Do you really think the Big East will ever take a new member from the Mid-American Conference? No -- Never! -- or at least not under any scenario currently imaginable. So, if the question is, as you indicate, "How can Akron get from where it is, to become a Big East member?", the answer must show a long-term, not short term plan. And the first step must be to jump to a conference from which a move to the Big East would be possible. I can only think of one conference that fits that bill, and it is the one you don't want to join.So, next, let's ask the obvious: Should Akron have such a goal (BE membership). I feel that at this point, it is self-defeating for Akron to gain a reputation in its own league of suggesting we are too good for the rest of the league. That is especially true of a program that is not close to being a dominant power in the MAC. Let's put every ounce of energy into doing just that, becoming the one university people think about when they think of the MAC. After that accomplishment, MAYBE we can consider the next step. OR -- we can put even more investment into our MAC membership -- and pull the entire league up by its -- and our bootstraps, until the MAC can replace the CUSA as the bridge to our "promised land". I think either of those events is at least two decades away. I just hope I live long enough to see it!

[Valpo Zip]

So, next, let's ask the obvious: Should Akron have such a goal (BE membership). I feel that at this point, it is self-defeating for Akron to gain a reputation in its own league of suggesting we are too good for the rest of the league. That is especially true of a program that is not close to being a dominant power in the MAC. Let's put every ounce of energy into doing just that, becoming the one university people think about when they think of the MAC. After that accomplishment, MAYBE we can consider the next step. OR -- we can put even more investment into our MAC membership -- and pull the entire league up by its -- and our bootstraps, until the MAC can replace the CUSA as the bridge to our "promised land". I think either of those events is at least two decades away. I just hope I live long enough to see it!

I couldn't have said it better myself. That exactly summarizes my thoughts. Also, i like the fact that all mac teams are relatively in close proximity to each other not only because of travel expenses to the team but also for away fan suport. The faithful fan willing to drive 3-4 hours can travel to 75% of the away MAC games while with C-USA the closest team would be a 5 hour drive.

[skip-zip]

Blue and Gold...great thread.I've been around this program for 30 years. And here's the deal....it's all about money. I've said this many times on this website. If ANY representative from a "bigger" conference came to Akron on gameday, and saw the sparse amount of fans in the stands, they'd turn around and go home. Revenue-generating programs (which equal revenue for your respective league),or potential revenue generating programs, would be the only thing that would attract the attention of a new league. And we can't provide that.Let's look closely at the Marshall situation. Marshall vacated the MAC a few years ago for C-USA. And even though they have struggled since the move, they are still drawing well over 25,000 per game. When was the last time we ever even drew 25,000 for a single game?So..what can Akron do?It's simple. Use these first couple of years at the new stadium to "market" yourself as a program that generates huge fan interest..and see where it gets you. Sure, WE know that it may not last a few years down the line. But "sell" it as something that we expect to continue for many, many years. It's our best chance to sell ourself to a larger league right now. If we can get someone to buy into this, maybe attracting a bigger conference is a possibility at this point, but something Big East level is probably impossible.Look at it this way...are any schools in the MAC currently being courted by another conference? And there are several schools in the MAC that draw better than us. Conclusion: This is a long uphill battle for a program like ours....and it has to start with large and consistent attendance for many, many years at home games.

[Ryno aka Menace]

Unfortuantely I think this is a catch 22 because alot of the local fans could care less about the MAC opponents. The casual football fan (which is what we need to reach 25K plus in attendance i.e. 2005 bowl game) could care less about us playing Temple, OU, or Eastern Michigan. When I try and get friends to come to an Akron game, they ask who are they playing? Response is North Texas or Northern Illinois, or Temple and I get that stare that says

[GoZips]

Changing conference affiliation is more than football attendance.If your sole standard for judging is current football attendance the Zips will be mired in the MAC.Conference affiliation involves all the sports at a university. There are several important factorsto consider. Facilities for one, fan interest, locale, community support, drive of leaders and alot more.Akron soccer needs a home. MAC soccer is so shaky that the soccer team could be orphaned or a guest member of C-USA or the Big Ten soon. Not that soccer drives the wagon. But, itis a factor.Men's basketball would grow exponentially as a member of the Big East. C-USA not so much,especially since it is a given that Memphis is headed to the Big East.Football probably is the principle driver. The new stadium and fieldhouse are huge advantages.What kind of home game attendance could you expect with Big East and better scheduling?If the Zips were admitted to the Big East they would likely be part of division that included PITT,West Virginia, Cincinnati, Syracuse, Louisville, Memphis. Most of these teams are much better"draws" than nearly all MAC teams.As a Big East program the Zips would enjoy scheduling most Big Ten teams at home and all theMAC or C-USA schools. SEC and ACC games on a home and home basis leading to betterrivalries,Since most fans are not really fans at all, but front runners who want to identify with winners,position yourself to win. That is the goal of Dambrot and Porter. It could be Brookhart's as well.A point was made about the greater amount of money flowing through the C-USA. Agreed. And,more national exposure if C-USA were a stepping stone. However, it seems wiser to shoot forthe top (Big East) and be willing to jump to C-USA if the opportunity to get into the Big East fallsshort.The only way the MAC overtakes C-USA is if a majority of MAC schools make a concerted andcommitted effort to move sports to a higher level. When you have school administrations contentwith the status quo there is little or no hope of that happening.With a new soccer stadium coming and a new, larger basketball arena on the drawing boards, theZips are positioned to offer a tempting program to the Big East. Let us not forget the size ofthis media market. That is a factor, as well.

[GoZips]

Some additional thoughts slightly related to the topic at hand.When I walked into Dix Stadium last Saturday I was favorably impressed with the renovations. Nice.Then as I had time to evaluate what I was seeing there were a couple of sore points. First and foremost,did any of you notice that part of the renovation was to remove the two end sections of standson the visitor side. Couple this with the lost end zone seating and you have a much smaller stadiumseating capacity.For those who did not attend the game, when Can't State renovated their stadium with a nifty new scoreboardand jumbotron they removed all the end zone seating at the south end. They also removed the seatsections at each end of the visitors stands. This area they populated with students. Worked prettywell when they have an opponent like Akron that is a draw for them. Overall, the seating capacityof Dix dropped by several thousand.Akron has grown its tailgating to the quality and size of larger schools. The strict control over beerat Can't seemed to be a play by the school to garner maximum profits from beer sales. Oh, bythe way, doesn't the MAC prohibit in stadium beer sales?A large and easily accessible tailgating area needs to be included in the new stadium plans. Novalue in regressing.One nice thing about being in the Big East would be the end of frozen nights in November. Well,perhaps not a total end as occasionally the Zips could host a major power on a Thursday nightand be on national TV.

[GP1]

If the Zips were admitted to the Big East they would likely be part of division that included PITT,West Virginia, Cincinnati, Syracuse, Louisville, Memphis. Most of these teams are much better"draws" than nearly all MAC teams.

Over a ten year period, Akron would average 2-4 against these teams. We had better be counting on them being a big "draw" because nobody from Akron is going to pay to go watch a Big East bottom feeder play. We would get killed in W & M Basketball as well and the move would destroy those programs. I have a better idea. Let's go to a conference where we compete well and earn trips to our league championship game and bowl games. We can create interest with post season play and league championships and give the people of NE Ohio something to go watch other than loses against larger programs. That league would be..........the MAC. We aren't going anywhere and that is a good thing.

[xu9697]

GoZips said a lot of what I was going to say...great post, GoZips.Yes, you cannot forget that market, atheltic facilities & other sports are crucial. Football attendance? This will definitely be better once they move onto campus and students & fans can more readily feel the "college football experience". This will only be increased if the MAC eases up on weeknight games.I understand that Louisville and Cincinnati have great basketball programs that helped them, but if you would have said 10-15 years ago that those teams would be in the Big East, you would have been laughed at (and not just because of geography). Cincinnati's football program was abysmal, and Louisville was not much better.I do think that regional rivalries are important for the school and the fans. I DO NOT think the C-USA is the way to go as it stands right now. But WHEN the Big East "expands"(12 teams that play football, kicking out the b-ball only schools), they will be choosing from C-USA teams (Memphis, Southern Miss, East Carolina & Central Florida), the MAC (more on that in a minute) and Army & Navy.MAC programsAkron= Cleveland/Akron market, top notch facilities on the way, growing student base, etc.Temple= they will be greatly helped by possibility of basketball membership, even though basketball is down. They will also be helped by Philly market. Tough to tell if previous membership helps or hurts.Miami= regionally close to Cincy & Lville, good facilities, pretty good history. They would fit in nicely if you are looking to balance the city schools (Pitt, Syracuse, Cincy, etc.) with the college town schools (WVU, UConn, etc.)Toledo & BG= could pull Detroit to Cleveland market. Otherwise, I see it as a long shot.Buffalo= they are definitely in the Big East region. Not sure about their facilities. Solid market.Ohio University= decent history, college town, nice basketball facility and football facility that could expand. Can't, Northern Illinois, Ball State and the 3 Michigan schools= I just don't see them as viable candidates.In all likelihood, barring major changes, Memphis & UCF are virtual locks. I'm not so sure Navy would do it, and Army doesn't look very viable now. They both play WAY DOWN in basketball, so that would hurt them greatly. I would see them as likely candidates to come to the MAC if we lose 1-2 teams. If 4 teams are chosen from C-USA, then maybe they pick 3-4 from the MAC and it looks much more intriguing.

[GoZips]

I have a better idea. Let's go to a conference where we compete well and earn trips to our league championship game and bowl games. We can create interest with post season play and league championships and give the people of NE Ohio something to go watch other than loses against larger programs. That league would be..........the OAC. We aren't going anywhere and that is a good thing.

I thought all you division three homies were dead.GP1, I always thought you had vision and a vested interest in the growth and development of the Zips.Your post reads like something straight out of the sixties. Back then, people argued against moving up to the (dare I say it?) MAC. I heard all those whiny short sighted arguments back then. The Zipsmoved and improved. It is time to move up again.I remember the arguments of how poor, little, under funded Akron could not possibly compete withthe likes of Kant, Ohio U, Toledo or gawd forbid the might Miami Redskins. Poor Akron just didnot have the talent to compete against those "big" time schools.A move up benefits not only the university and the community; it also benefits neighboring schools;most particularly the much loved Buckeyes. Akron in the Big East would drain local and near local talent that currently goes out of state (Big Ten). Akron becomes a local area major player thatMAC and other schools can schedule. Kant benefits from no longer competing for talent. The Zipscould even (conceivably) even play football AT Kant.The up side is just too great to pass by. Its all about money. Its all about ambition. Its all aboutpride. Its all about the community. Its all about recognition.Come on, GP1, join the future.

[Zips fan]

The idea of moving to the Big East is great. I think we are closer than some people believe. The idea of moving to C-USA is never going to happen. They are a parallel move at best and honestly, probably a step down. They have more bowls and TV money currently, but they are going to lose their top schools at some point (UCF, ECU, and Memphis). Their conference will be based out of Texas(SMU, Rice, Houston, UTEP) and makes no sense for Akron. I would be absolutely against moving to C-USA. Attendance is bad now, imagine how many SMU fans are going to make the trip. Akron needs to move to the Big East or stay in the MAC. There is no other option.

[Zipmeister]

So, next, let's ask the obvious: Should Akron have such a goal (BE membership). I feel that at this point, it is self-defeating for Akron to gain a reputation in its own league of suggesting we are too good for the rest of the league. That is especially true of a program that is not close to being a dominant power in the MAC. Let's put every ounce of energy into doing just that, becoming the one university people think about when they think of the MAC. After that accomplishment, MAYBE we can consider the next step. OR -- we can put even more investment into our MAC membership -- and pull the entire league up by its -- and our bootstraps, until the MAC can replace the CUSA as the bridge to our "promised land". I think either of those events is at least two decades away. I just hope I live long enough to see it!

I couldn't have said it better myself. That exactly summarizes my thoughts. Also, i like the fact that all mac teams are relatively in close proximity to each other not only because of travel expenses to the team but also for away fan suport. The faithful fan willing to drive 3-4 hours can travel to 75% of the away MAC games while with C-USA the closest team would be a 5 hour drive.

You must drive REALLY slow.

[bigzipguy]

I understand the pros and cons of moving to the big east. But FIRST WE MUST START WINNING CONFERENCE CHAMPIONSHIPS IN FOOTBALL,BASKETBALL, BASEBALL ect. IN THE MAC on a consistent basis!!!! Then think about moving on. Just my take.

[zips4ever2008]

I think Akron should schedule more games with teams from the Big East and C-USA to see how we do against those teams before we jump to another conference. We beat Syracuse, played tough with Cinci., but we did get blown out by UCONN last year. How would we fair against West Virginia, Pitt and Louisville? The Big East is a tougher conference then the MAC, so how would the team fair playing those teams week after week. In C-USA we have teams like Memphis, Southern Mississippi and UCF. If we can start scheduling those teams, we can see how we do. I do think Akron is capable of beating those teams and anyone else but I want to see it done on a consistent basis. We have the facilities now and in the future to draw attention, but we need our teams to be successful.

[Class of 82]

I love the Zips. I'm proud to be an Akron fan. I'm ecstatic about the new stadium as the crowning jewel on a rejuvenated campus that just might be the nicest urban campus in the country. The sky's the limit on Akron's future in NCAA athletics.But the idea that we've somehow "outgrown" the MAC is just silly. Strike that. It's not just silly; it's absurd.Let's win a few championships in football and make a few trips to the NCAA tournament in basketball. Let's fill our new stadium game in and game out for a couple of years. Let's fill up the JAR more than once or twice a year. Then maybe... just maybe... we can start talking about this.My two cents.

[skip-zip]

bigzipguy....someone who "gets it". Sort of. Yes, we need to show success where we are right now. That will generate revenue and increased fan interest, which will likely bring more support....and increased revenue. I have to ask the question again. What do we have that attracts us to a bigger conference right now? Some say, a new stadium? Maybe if we pack that thing over the next few years, consistently, someone will take notice. Without that, we don't have what it takes for another conference to say "hey...let's get Akron in here...they will benefit us". GoZips....I have to disagree with you on an issue. You say that we have grown our tailgating to the quality and size of larger schools? Ok...I love tailgating at the Bowl. I've been doing it for almost 30 years, but.....size? We have about 100 people out there who do this regularly, and go hours before game time. I've been to many big schools. They have THOUSANDS of people who show up THE NIGHT BEFORE with their RVs and party all weekend. I have a great time at the Bowl...no doubt...but to compare us to the big schools in size of tailgate parties is just far from the truth. Someone mentioned that we could not compete in basketball in a division that would include Memphis, Cincinnati, Louisville, etc. But remember this. Conference affiliation elevates your recruiting. Supposing we could get admitted, we wouldn't be playing these guys with the level of talent we have now.Akron has to do some big things to get the attention of larger conferences. And frankly, there may be other MAC schools right now that are in a better position to do that at this time. New stadium? Consistent packed attendance?....ok...we have a chance. But until that happens, let's try to win in the MAC. That's the best thing we can do to help our chances right now.

[gozips19]

Let's win a few championships in football and make a few trips to the NCAA tournament in basketball. Let's fill our new stadium game in and game out for a couple of years. Let's fill up the JAR more than once or twice a year. Then maybe... just maybe... we can start talking about this.tell that to usf and ucf. they didn't win anything and were able to move conferences. most seem to think that memphis, ucf, and ecu are locks for the big east. ecu, while having a very good year is hardly a conference power and the same can be said for ucf. memphis has basketball going for them but football is in the same boat with the other two schools. in order to move a school must have great facilities, and good sized market base, a good sized student body, and the ability to pump money into your athletic program. is akron there yet? no but they can be with in three years.

[ZachTheZip]

When Cinci joined the Big East, it wasn't because they had somehow "outgrown" C-USA athletically. Their football program was the worst in the country, and basketball wasn't any better then Memphis. It was because of their great potential. It was because they were situated in a large market with no BCS presence. It was because their school had shown a commitment to improving the athletic program.We have those three things. The only thing missing is the ability to generate national press, like Cinci did in basketball. Getting to a bowl game, and winning the MAC in football would help, as would making the Big Dance a few years in a row. Winning the national championship in Soccer helps to a lesser extent, as do our great track/XC teams.A move up wouldn't kill any programs. Did moving to the BE kill Cinci's godawful football program? What about UConn moving up from 1-AA direct to BCS level? It helped those programs because they could now recruit players they never had a shot at before, just by virtue of their new conference affiliation. How great would the LeBron connection work inside a BCS-level program in basketball?There is only upside to moving there.

[skip-zip]

Let me add one more thought.I think many of us are guilty of this line of thinking "If only we can get into a bigger conference, we can elevate our recruiting and show that we belong".Yes...I would love for it to happen that way...but it's NOT.We have to get some things done on our own to make that even a possiblity. For example, a 1990s Marshall football-level run might get some attention. Honestly, I can't think of a basketball example right now since no MAC school has ever been courted by a larger conference because of their benefit as a basketball program to a bigger conference. And since we all draw only a few thousand a game in basketball, it's not going to happen anytime soon. It's the chicken before the egg thought process. We simply are not getting into any of these leagues without first showing the ability to be a asset to them. If we can do that right now, I'd like to know what that is. Maybe we have a slight chance to use the stadium as leverage, but I think the more likely scenario to get ANY kind of attention is to start packing that stadium, consistently, over many years. I'm very passionate about this topic. I'd love to see it happen. But it has to start with US. We need to keep talking about what a great time it is to go to the games, and continue to invite more and more people to our tailgate parties. It seems to be growing, but it has a long way to go.

[zipdiehard]

I personally don't think that winning has much to do with who they consider when looking at expansion. If that was the case how did USF end up in the Big East? Had anyone even heard of them prior to going to the Big East? I think the points about facilities, fan support (ie $$), and geographical location are what really drive who they look at. The Big East rumors I have always heard stemmed from the proximity to large cities and markets that some MAC schools offer. Expansion for the Big East would involve expanding their market as well. It is also tough to try and say how would Akron do against WV or Pitt when we haven't been exposed to the increased recruiting that comes with being in a bigger conference. While we would take our lumps initially, one could assume that our recruiting base would expand almost immediately. We lose out on kids all the time that we would have a much better chance of getting having Big East tied to our name.

[ZachTheZip]

Let me add one more thought.I think many of us are guilty of this line of thinking "If only we can get into a bigger conference, we can elevate our recruiting and show that we belong".Yes...I would love for it to happen that way...but it's NOT.We have to get some things done on our own to make that even a possiblity. For example, a 1990s Marshall football-level run might get some attention. Honestly, I can't think of a basketball example right now since no MAC school has ever been courted by a larger conference because of their benefit as a basketball program to a bigger conference. And since we all draw only a few thousand a game in basketball, it's not going to happen anytime soon. It's the chicken before the egg thought process. We simply are not getting into any of these leagues without first showing the ability to be a asset to them. If we can do that right now, I'd like to know what that is. Maybe we have a slight chance to use the stadium as leverage, but I think the more likely scenario to get ANY kind of attention is to start packing that stadium, consistently, over many years. I'm very passionate about this topic. I'd love to see it happen. But it has to start with US. We need to keep talking about what a great time it is to go to the games, and continue to invite more and more people to our tailgate parties. It seems to be growing, but it has a long way to go.

The biggest asset we have is an untapped market of over 5 million people. Sure, they're all OSU fans now, but they want a team in their own region that they can support.As for existing fan support, I think the creation of the AK-Rowdies sparked something. Attendance in football hasn't risen, but that can be partially blamed on the stadium getting worse each passing day. There is now a real core of young fans that support all Zips sports. They've completely transformed the soccer games by creating a mob of crazy students that hound the opposing teams' every step, and they add a little bit to the entertainment value of the basketball games (especially when Can't comes to town). When these kids graduate, they stick with the team. It looks like the beginning of a snowball effect that could result in much greater alumni support down the line. At least, that's my hope.

[ziptrumpet87]

Comparison using the Sagarin ratings...CONFERENCE CENTRAL MEAN#6 BIG EAST (A) = 72.6637 Cincinnati A = 77.7639 Connecticut A = 77.4442 South Florida A = 76.9946 Pittsburgh A = 74.8651 West Virginia A = 73.9569 Louisville A = 69.14(-- 72 Akron A = 68.55 --)105 Rutgers A = 63.43121 Syracuse A = 59.99#10 CONFERENCE USA (A) = 64.6435 Tulsa A = 78.2957 East Carolina A = 72.9762 Houston A = 71.4371 Rice A = 68.66(-- 72 Akron A = 68.55 --)88 Southern Miss A = 65.6493 Marshall A = 65.0394 UTEP A = 64.63107 Memphis A = 63.06114 Central Florida A = 61.33127 Tulane A = 58.17148 UAB A = 54.11156 SMU A = 52.03#11 MID-AMERICAN (A) = 64.4419 Ball State A = 82.6867 Western Michigan A = 69.8572 Akron A = 68.55and the rest of the conference follows us...

[MDZip]

The idea of moving to the Big East is great. I think we are closer than some people believe. The idea of moving to C-USA is never going to happen. They are a parallel move at best and honestly, probably a step down. They have more bowls and TV money currently, but they are going to lose their top schools at some point (UCF, ECU, and Memphis). Their conference will be based out of Texas(SMU, Rice, Houston, UTEP) and makes no sense for Akron. I would be absolutely against moving to C-USA. Attendance is bad now, imagine how many SMU fans are going to make the trip. Akron needs to move to the Big East or stay in the MAC. There is no other option.

I don't think the Big East is any more realistic at this point than any other conference. If I got my wish list and I could join any conference quite honestly it would be the Big Ten. That would be awesome. They need a 12th member anyway, right?

[MDZip]

I personally don't think that winning has much to do with who they consider when looking at expansion. If that was the case how did USF end up in the Big East? Had anyone even heard of them prior to going to the Big East? I think the points about facilities, fan support (ie $$), and geographical location are what really drive who they look at. The Big East rumors I have always heard stemmed from the proximity to large cities and markets that some MAC schools offer. Expansion for the Big East would involve expanding their market as well. It is also tough to try and say how would Akron do against WV or Pitt when we haven't been exposed to the increased recruiting that comes with being in a bigger conference. While we would take our lumps initially, one could assume that our recruiting base would expand almost immediately. We lose out on kids all the time that we would have a much better chance of getting having Big East tied to our name.

USF's football program only STARTED in 1997 at the 1-AA level, then they were an independent for a short time and were in conference USA for a little bit before joining the Big East. If you want a school model to follow, there is the one that should be studied.