Upgrading the Zips' Schedule

[skip-zip]

The offseason might be another good time to start this discussion....I was listening to KNR this morning. and they were talking about CSUs out-of-conference schedule, and the value of putting yourself in a position to have a 2nd chance to get into the big dance. So, I decided to look at what CSU is doing, and this is what I found....Some of the games on their non-conference schedule included:Washington - Pac 10 winnerKansas State - Big 12Wichita State - Missouri ValleyWest Virginia - Top 25 teamSyracuse - Top 25 team....and they WON this game...on the ROADAnd two conference games against ranked Butler....both very narrow losses.Among this list were teams with RPIs of 12, 14, 21, and 24.They ended the season with a #52 Sagarin, which certainly was a reflection of some of the teams they played, and would have likely assured them of an NIT bid. And it even may have turned into an NCAA at-large bid if they could have come up with maybe another win or two during that stretch. And it certainly didn't hurt their run at the conference tournament title. So the question again is....what do you have to lose by upgrading your schedule? Even if many of them are road games?

[Quickzips]

I will premise this by saying that I do think next year is a good time to look into upgrading our schedule. This year wasn't the year to do it because of how young we were. Going out on the road against a ton of top level opponents would have killed this years team. But.....Let's not glamorize Cleveland State too much. They were not going to get an at large bid. Weren't even in the conversation. They're tournament hopes were the same as ours. Win your conference tournament and you are in. On top of that, even with all of their great scheduling and RPI and everything else. They were still a 13 seed. Just like us.

[Dr Z]

This year wasn't the year to do it because of how young we were.

Why? I sure would like our returning players to be as experienced as possible at playing quality teams. What's the advantage of Akron playing a weaker opponent early in the year. Confidence?It wouldn't have changed anything even if they got their brains beat in (which I don't think they would have).We made it to the dance the longest way possible anyway. I hate playing cupcakes. B-O-R-I-N-G.Doesn't make me want to get in my car and drive down to the JAR.

[Quickzips]

This year wasn't the year to do it because of how young we were.

Why? I sure would like our returning players to be as experienced as possible at playing quality teams. What's the advantage of Akron playing a weaker opponent early in the year. Confidence?It wouldn't have changed anything even if they got their brains beat in (which I don't think they would have).We made it to the dance the longest way possible anyway. I hate playing cupcakes. B-O-R-I-N-G.Doesn't make me want to get in my car and drive down to the JAR.

First of all, any upgrades to our schedule are almost certainly going to be road games. The real big dawgs are not coming to play in the JAR. If you don't like cupcakes, I suggest you start saving some frequent flyer miles.Second of all, this team during the OOC season probably would have gotten their behinds handed to them playing teams like Syracuse, Washington or West Virginia. Remember Pitt? Would the guys have come out of it none the worse for wear or would they have crumbled? I don't know. But I don't think you can risk it with as young a team as we had. Now this year is a totally different story. I want to see this team go out and play a Kansas or a North Carolina or a Florida. I want to see some road games against the Penn State's, Providence's and Vanderbilt's of college basketball. I want to see as many decent home games against mid-majors like Xavier, Crieghton and Butler as we can get. This team has had a year together to gel and they've developed the attitude that they aren't intimidated by the big stage. You couldn't say that at the beginning of this year.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Let's not glamorize Cleveland State too much. They were not going to get an at large bid. Weren't even in the conversation. They're tournament hopes were the same as ours. Win your conference tournament and you are in. On top of that, even with all of their great scheduling and RPI and everything else. They were still a 13 seed. Just like us.

True, but CSU's Syracuse win made them a lock for the NIT, should they have floundered in the Horizon Tourney.Getting an at-large for a mid-major is VERY difficult. And it takes some time to get the respect necessary to be under consideration for one. Teams like Creighton and St Mary's put themselves in contention for an at-large because of their tradition, scheduling and performance. The Zips goal should be to put ourselves in that position. If we schedule well over the next 3-4 seasons, we'll be in the mix for an at-large. We'll never be a "lock" but we'll be no worse off than the Creighton's of the world. And until we get the 10,000 seat arena and the Summa-Nike Leer jet, that's all we can realistically aspire to achieve.

[Dr Z]

Remember Pitt?

I sure do, I was there. Excellent example. First off, Pitt didn't cover (the spread) against our young Zips. Which I consider not "getting your brains beat in." Secondly, I specifically remember being very impressed with the way Cvetinovic played in that game. He held his own for the 15 minutes he was on the floor. I think that game was INVALUABLE experience that served him well throughout the season and into the MAC tourney and the NCAA tourney. From that game on I posted that Nic's playing time should be increased throughout the season.

[Zip Watcher]

Nice post CK. Agree completely. The Zips need to put themselves in that position. It's a process .. and it won't magically be bestowed upon them for winning 4 at the Q this month.The next step has to be continually taken.

[Blue & Gold]

Is Rhode Island making a return trip to the JAR this year? Temple? Perhaps we could work something out with Xavier; we seem to have a friendly relationship with X? Would Mike Thomas be willing to help us out by getting something going between us and Cincinnati? Would UMass be interested in a few games? Our game with them 2 seasons ago was very competitive.

[Zip N' Dots]

Is Rhode Island making a return trip to the JAR this year? Temple? Perhaps we could work something out with Xavier; we seem to have a friendly relationship with X? Would Mike Thomas be willing to help us out by getting something going between us and Cincinnati? Would UMass be interested in a few games? Our game with them 2 seasons ago was very competitive.

All the teams you mention should be the caliber that we look at when scheduling our OOC this upcoming year. I disagree when it comes to teams like UNC for the simple fact that there will be no return games. Pitt was a must to schedule, we compete with them for recruits, UNC, not yet. Like some have said, it is a process, a gradual one at that, KD knows what he is doing.

[skip-zip]

Quickzips...I'm not glamorizing Cleveland State at all by starting this thread. I really don't like them at all, to be honest. I'm merely pointing out another example of a program that put themselves in a position to get a 2nd opportunity at an NCAA bid by scheduling some big teams. In no way did it hurt their chances of winning their own conference tournament. AND, it got their kids more "battle tested" against good schools, will aid their future recruiting, and gave them some games that could garner some national visibility...especially the game they won at Syracuse. I'm well aware of situations that can cause players to lose confidence. But losing to a top level school when it's expected is not a situation that will normally cause players to react that way. In fact, competitive players get excited about those types of opportunities. So again, I just can't see a good reason why you would NOT want to play more of these kinds of games. Blue and Gold...Xavier played here about 12 years ago, and we almost beat them. I don't see any reason why they wouldn't do a home-and-home with us.

[ZachTheZip]

We talk about Cleveland State having a good schedule, and we talk about Akron trying to get a good schedule, but we don't talk about scheduling Cleveland State. Does anybody know a way to get Elton Alexander to interview coach Waters about why he won't schedule Akron?Anyways, I wanted to post this stat in regards of putting ourselves in a position for a at-large bid:At-Large Bids by non-BCS teams2004 = 122005 = 92006 = 82007 = 62008 = 62009 = 4Look at that. The committee has made it clear that unless you're at the caliber of Butler, Xavier, or Gonzaga that screws up in your conference finals you're not getting in. There is no putting yourself in that position unless we start pulling in nationally sought-after recruits every year and completely dominate the MAC for many years in a row like those teams have. Scheduling won't help as much as going 16-0 during the MAC regular season and making it to at least the tournament finals every year. You want a good schedule, get yourself invited to the pre-season NIT. Winning tournaments is how you upgrade your schedule because the further you advance the better the opponents' record become.It comes down to a choice: play lots of top teams on the road which reduces the number of home games and opportunities to attract a local following, or play mid-majors in home-and-home deals at the sacrifice of a top-50 schedule.Skip, if you want an example of your scheduling philosophy look at Miami. They went out and played tons of BCS teams, didn't beat a single one, and lost their point-guard to injury because of it. And then once they began their MAC schedule their SOS dropped from #2 in the country to #108. It doesn't matter how good the teams are we play when the MAC schedule bring it down so much that it destroys your chance of even getting into the NIT.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Skip, if you want an example of your scheduling philosophy look at Miami. They went out and played tons of BCS teams, didn't beat a single one, and lost their point-guard to injury because of it.

Miami was bad this season. By MAC standards "average," but by D-1 basketball standards, bad. If they'd have played a bunch of average OOC mid-majors, they would have lost the lion's share of those games too. Miami lost Haynes because they played a tough schedule? Puh-LEEZE. I guess we lost Humpty because we played a MAC schedule?

It doesn't matter how good the teams are we play when the MAC schedule bring it down so much that it destroys your chance of even getting into the NIT.

So if we beat Dayton, Rhode Island and...for the sake of argument...Pitt. That would have no effect on the NIT selection? That wouldn't get our name bandied about with the likes of a Creighton or Saint Mary's on Selection Sunday? You can't be serious. I think you might be spending too much time with the worry worts on the bbs board who matriculated from schools with no reasonable chance at sniffing so much as a CBI bid in the next 5 years. The Zips aren't in that situation. We're poised to be in the Selection Sunday discussion for the next several years. Believe it.

[Zip Watcher]

The Zips aren't in that situation. We're poised to be in the Selection Sunday discussion for the next several years. Believe it.

What he said! B) B)

[WinZip]

Good points made Uakronkid, and I think its important to find a nice balance. Winning also goes a long way in motivating a team. While I dunno that we should load up on "cupcakes", perhaps some "cupcakes with sprinkles" would fit in nicely. By this I mean some teams that we should be able to beat, yet will give us a college level game and perhaps draw in some extra interest. Also, if we can start negotiating with a few of the big boys it'd be nice to have a few visit our house. I would think that would help to bring in some extra fans, and when we win they will keep coming back for more. We don't wanna play all our "real competition" on the road and save our home games for "cupcakes with sprinkles" and "less than big MACS" heres what I'm sayin...11/15 CAN W 56-46 <----start the season off with a win to boost confidence (no games mind you) 11/18 WIN W 72-58 <---- let the competition heat up a little (ex. EKU) 11/21 @ PITT L 86-67 <----- exactly, see if we can negotiate some teams like this visit us and show we are11/25 URB W 81-37 <---- game11/29 @ EKU L 69-57 <---- the key however, is winning11/30 @ FDU W 85-41 <----I'd love to see a CSU game in there somewhere (lets find some more sprinkles)12/03 @ NIAG W 63-59 <---- not bad12/06 DAY L 54-50 <----exactly12/13 NCAT W 78-61 <---- game (insert XU)12/17 @ VCU L 73-69 <---- these are the games I look forward to12/28 SFNY W 77-70 <----not so much these12/31 @ UNCG W 75-53 <----or these 1/03 @ URI L 79-50 <----and the key again is to win the games1/10 @ MU L 64-51 OT <--- 1/13 BUF L 63-61 1/17 @ BGSU W 62-52 1/20 @ OHIO L 70-65 OT 1/24 Can't Statecks W 68-54 1/26 @ YSU W 67-53 <----sprinkles?1/28 @ TOL W 70-61 1/31 CMU W 64-43 2/03 @ EMU W 78-41 \ 2/08 WMU W 87-63 >-----eat some "not so big MACS" 2/11 BALL W 63-55 /2/15 @ NIU L 83-79 2/18 MU W 53-44 2/21 @ VAL L 74-66 <---- 2/26 @ BUF W 62-57 3/01 BGSU L 50-46 3/05 OHIO W 60-51 3/08 @ Can't Statecks L 67-63

[WinZip]

PS. If we win... good things will come, enough said. I don't wanna settle for the NIT with a NCAA caliber team.

[Captain Kangaroo]

While I dunno that we should load up on "cupcakes", perhaps some "cupcakes with sprinkles" would fit in nicely. By this I mean some teams that we should be able to beat, yet will give us a college level game and perhaps draw in some extra interest.

Ask Romeo Travis what 26 wins against that schedule gets you. Then ask Mack Rhoades what kind of turnstile interest it gathers

[skip-zip]

Uakronkid...I know your point of view on this. So, I guess we just sit around and not try to do anything about it? It's real simple....do one thing, and you give yourself a chance at some national recognition. You do the alternative, and you win games and nobody notices (i.e. the same old, same old). I know what I would choose.

[GoZips]

Tidbits ...Rhode Island comes to Akron next year.The Zips travel to Temple with the Owls coming the following year.Most of the "ats" will show up in the JAR this year including Valpo and UNC-Greensboro.Akron will "buy" three to five home games to help the stats. Its wins, not RPI, that count.Dayton declined to extend. Perhaps another A-10 is on the horizon.Possible home-n-home with Wyoming. We go there next season.Do not look for a schedule that knocks your eyes out.Zips probably get a home game for the Bracket Buster.I almost envy Creighton. They beat a good Bowling Green team at home. Then,barely lost to Kentucky at home. Its a toss up. Lose to Gonzaga 2,500 miles away,or lose a close one at home to KENTUCKY. The NIT is looking strong.Remember this ... Gary Waters will NOT be the CSU coach by May first. CSU played with three seniors; as did Gonzaga. CSU fades back into the swamp. Cant will be the Zipsnemesis next season.

[zipboy]

From what I remember hearing in an interview with maybe Joe Dunn and Rick McFadde?16 home games next year which should mean 8 non conference gamesHome games vs Niagara, Valpo, UIC, Rhode Island, bracketbuster probably. That leaves a couple games to buyAway games - I thought he mentioned Wyoming, I think Canisius is a return game as well

[BirdZip]

2004--Made it to MAC Opening Round2005--Made it to MAC Quarterfinals2006--Made it to MAC Semifinals (NIT bid)2007--Made it to MAC Championship (should have been NIT bid)2008--Made it to MAC Championship, NIT bid2009--Won MAC Championship, made it to NCAA first round2010--Zeke shows up...2011--Zeke followers show up...Why are we complaining again about how things are progressing? Why are we complaining about schedules when it's working? If I graph the above, the way I'm seeing it, 2015 is going to be one hell of a year!

[Zip Watcher]

2004--Made it to MAC Opening Round2005--Made it to MAC Quarterfinals2006--Made it to MAC Semifinals (NIT bid)2007--Made it to MAC Championship (should have been NIT bid)2008--Made it to MAC Championship, NIT bid2009--Won MAC Championship, made it to NCAA first round2010--Zeke shows up...2011--Zeke followers show up...Why are we complaining again about how things are progressing? Why are we complaining about schedules when it's working? If I graph the above, the way I'm seeing it, 2015 is going to be one hell of a year!

Thanks for introducing perspective. This has been my argument for 3 years now. It's a process .. the progression is evident. Earlier this year the belief structure among fans was shaky. KD has a plan. Witness the results. Trust the plan. I for one am thrilled with the trend, progress & results.Go Zips!! B)

[Zips Win!]

2004--Made it to MAC Opening Round2005--Made it to MAC Quarterfinals2006--Made it to MAC Semifinals (NIT bid)2007--Made it to MAC Championship (should have been NIT bid)2008--Made it to MAC Championship, NIT bid2009--Won MAC Championship, made it to NCAA first round2010--Zeke shows up...2011--Zeke followers show up...Why are we complaining again about how things are progressing? Why are we complaining about schedules when it's working? If I graph the above, the way I'm seeing it, 2015 is going to be one hell of a year!

Thanks for introducing perspective. This has been my argument for 3 years now. It's a process .. the progression is evident. Earlier this year the belief structure among fans was shaky. KD has a plan. Witness the results. Trust the plan. I for one am thrilled with the trend, progress & results.Go Zips!! B)

I like the trend, progress and results...But let's not forget it took a miracle 3- point shot and inbounds/ assist to get us here.Everyone will be gunning for us next year....

[Zip Watcher]

I like the trend, progress and results...But let's not forget it took a miracle 3- point shot and inbounds/ assist to get us here.

Good teams make their own luck.Penno's shot in 2007 was a miracle shot. The CSU shot @ Syracuse was a miracle shot. The plays against UT were 2 difficult basketball plays made in the heat of the game. One was a squared up look from normal 3 point range, and another was a great pass by a player with court vision and a habit of winning.They were great plays .. not miracles.In a year, this is what fans will remember .. a little bit more than what happened on Tuesday.

Everyone will be gunning for us next year....

Indeed they will. Sucks for them that the Zips will be a better, more seasoned team than this year. B) Go Zips!

[skip-zip]

Zips Win...perfect. Brings us right back to the very reason I started this thread.We only need to look at our last couple of years of MAC Tournament history to know that anything can happen. We've now lost the MAC tournament with the best team in the MAC, and won it with a #5 seeded team. And I'm just not satisfied with continuing to rest our postseason opportunities on a situation where any one of 13 teams can have everything fall their way at the right time. I'm really quite surprised that anyone is fine with us continuing along satisfied with only having one chance to get into the big dance, when there are things you can do to improve your chances at getting a 2nd opportunity.

[Zip Watcher]

Zips Win...perfect. Brings us right back to the very reason I started this thread.We only need to look at our last couple of years of MAC Tournament history to know that anything can happen. We've now lost the MAC tournament with the best team in the MAC, and won it with a #5 seeded team. And I'm just not satisfied with continuing to rest our postseason opportunities on a situation where any one of 13 teams can have everything fall their way at the right time. I'm really quite surprised that anyone is fine with us continuing along satisfied with only having one chance to get into the big dance, when there are things you can do to improve your chances at getting a 2nd opportunity.

It's not yet been 11 days since the Zips won the MAC Title .. and already Skip is throwing a stinky wet blanket on the smoldering embers of excitement for Zips hoops. Well done Skip .. well done. Great effort. Please cite a post where ANYONE is fine with only having one chance to dance. People here are coming to the realization that the building of the program is WORKING .. that the schedule needs to fit the team when it's early in the process (the last couple of years) and that as the team establishes winning habits, we expect the scheduling to grow and get more difficult. The RESULTS (SEE: 2009 MAC TOURNAMENT CHAMPIONSHIP) prove that KD's plan is WORKING. Would other plans be working? Perhaps .. but the important thing is that his vision and strategy IS panning out.Do you honestly think that KD is going to sit on his laurels and pretend that the status quo will fill the trophy case? What possible evidence is there to indicate he will?He recruits the best college players from the City of Akron .. starts the process, did he stop there?NO .. he went out and started bringing in All-State players from OH, PA, WV, VA .. 1st team all staters. State players of the year. Did he sit back and get satisfied with that?NO .. the staff aimed higher and landed a top 50 recruit / top 10 center to go with his stable of All-State players. Is he satisfied with that?NO .. now the staff is chasing guys who aren't even OPENING the DOOR for most of our conference opponents. The Zips aren't going to get every 4 or 5 star guy they chase. But they're in the conversation with these kids with schools like tOSU, Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Kentucky, Pitt, WVU .. and you can't land a great player until you are in that conversation and a part of the process. The Zips are there now.Did the US give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? NO!Nothing about how the past 5 years have gone suggests to me that this is a one and done thing. The Zips won the title with nobody averaging 12 ppg. They won the title with 1 senior. They won the title with no short-term hired guns. They won the title with depth and team play. These are components to building a championship program .. not just building a championship team. I think there's a clear difference, and I think the Zips fit squarely in the former category. B) B) Repeat after me .. start slowly if you have to: THE ZIPS ARE THE 2009 MAC CHAMPIONS! THE ZIPS ARE THE 2009 MAC CHAMPIONS! :champs: :champs: Go Zips!!