Offense wins regular season titles.

[zippy5]

Dear GP1,

The three teams with the lowest PPG allowed this tournament are all in the final four.

Sincerely,

Duke, WVU, and Butler.

[meatwad]

Dear GP1,

The three teams with the lowest PPG allowed this tournament are all in the final four.

Sincerely,

Duke, WVU, and Butler.

We've been over this. PPG means nothing. That just means they hold the ball for 32 seconds on offense and the other team has the ball for less time. We are all more interested in defensive efficiency for the tournament. Can you provide that please and then we can revisit this?

[meatwad]

Dear GP1,

The three teams with the lowest PPG allowed this tournament are all in the final four.

Sincerely,

Duke, WVU, and Butler.

We've been over this. PPG means nothing. That just means they hold the ball for 32 seconds on offense and the other team has the ball for less time. We are all more interested in defensive efficiency for the tournament. Can you provide that please and then we can revisit this?

Found it.

Duke 8

Butler 16

Wv 59

MSU 70

And offensive efficiency:

Duke 6

WV 22

MSU 44

Butler 54

Hmmm. Care to revisit your previous assessment?

*FYI, I edited this after I realized I was looking at the wrong thing originally on Ken Poms site.

[w00t]

Three things...

1 - See above, PPG (offense or defense) can say as much about offensive or defensive pacing as it does actual scoring or defending.

2 - This year's final four is the exception not the rule (check out the other thread where this was debated out the wazoo) and despite that three of the four teams rank better on offense than they do on defense.

3 - Quit making me agree with GP1.

[zippy5]

1. Efficiency shmeffiency. Did you watch wvu beat kentucky with their stellar offense? No 2 point field goals halfway through the second half! It sure as hell wasn't their barnburning offense that pulled away at the end with 0 poin guards in the lineup. Great defense the entire game, they forced kentucky to 2-24 from three at one point, I don't know the final count.

2. Ever think those teams that "hold it for 32 seconds" do it because their offense can't keep up if it turns into a track meet? nah that can't be right. They do it because they are so offensively efficient, right?

3. You guys are starting to scare me, everyone here finds one obscure idea/thought and latches onto it. First it was the whole JUCO thing. "We need a JUCO, he can bring us to the promised land with his magical JUCO powers." It would be a decent idea if we actually had a good juco in mind, instead of wanting a juco for the sake of having one, but that's a different argument. Then it was the mcnees at pg/sg fascination. And now this whole offensive/efficiency revolution. Its like browns fans with their backup QB's. Watch the games, and tell me what you think of wvu and butlers "offense." Duke, ill admit, has a decent offense, and I haven't seen enough of msu to make an opinion.

[Dr Z]

If I never watched a Zips basketball game and just listened to KD talk about defense, I would think he was Butler's coach. Great defense. I wish the Zips played defense like that. Then I could swallow all the defensive talk that KD gives us. Please spare me some long winded statistical response to this post.

[zippy5]

If I never watched a Zips basketball game and just listened to KD talk about defense, I would think he was Butler's coach. Great defense. I wish the Zips played defense like that. Then I could swallow all the defensive talk that KD gives us. Please spare me some long winded statistical response to this post.

+1

[GP1]

Dear GP1,

The three teams with the lowest PPG allowed this tournament are all in the final four.

Sincerely,

Duke, WVU, and Butler.

Dear zippy5,

Thank you for your response, and like so many on this board, your general obsession with whatever I post.

Here is what I saw this weekend.

Duke getting and putting back one OFFENSIVE rebound after another late in the game to pressure Baylor into a position where they had to take bad shots. Offense won.

WVU made one critical shot after another late in the games Saturday while on OFFENSE and Kentucky had to take low percentage shots late to try to recover. KY also decided to foul with three minutes to go in the game. WVU made lots of foul shots (foul shots are offensive) and kept KY at bay. Offense won.

Butler's defense took a crap late in their game and they had to recover with OFFENSE. Offense won.

Offense is more important than defense in big games. It puts pressure on teams to score at a high rate and lots of teams can't do that.

Sincerely,

The Great GP1

[w00t]

1. Efficiency shmeffiency. Did you watch wvu beat kentucky with their stellar offense? No 2 point field goals halfway through the second half! It sure as hell wasn't their barnburning offense that pulled away at the end with 0 poin guards in the lineup. Great defense the entire game, they forced kentucky to 2-24 from three at one point, I don't know the final count.

2. Ever think those teams that "hold it for 32 seconds" do it because their offense can't keep up if it turns into a track meet? nah that can't be right. They do it because they are so offensively efficient, right?

3. You guys are starting to scare me, everyone here finds one obscure idea/thought and latches onto it. First it was the whole JUCO thing. "We need a JUCO, he can bring us to the promised land with his magical JUCO powers." It would be a decent idea if we actually had a good juco in mind, instead of wanting a juco for the sake of having one, but that's a different argument. Then it was the mcnees at pg/sg fascination. And now this whole offensive/efficiency revolution. Its like browns fans with their backup QB's. Watch the games, and tell me what you think of wvu and butlers "offense." Duke, ill admit, has a decent offense, and I haven't seen enough of msu to make an opinion.

1 - You're employing the DiG strategy of picking one game as evidence to whatever point you're trying to make. (By the way, UK has been a mediocre three-point shooting team all year). Sure I saw WVU play good defense on Saturday, I also saw UNC run up and down the floor like gazelles and lay a 17-point beatdown on Michigan St. last year in the CHAMPIONSHIP game. What's your point?

2 - Slowing the tempo down is a legitimate strategy, but it doesn't speak to how well a team plays defense, nor did I ever say that it's because they have proficient offense.

3 - The offense vs. defense discussion doesn't have much to do with the Zips, as it's been framed in the context of winning a championship, something they haven't done. I think the reason this discussion came up was regarding where the focus should be for the Zips... and the focus should be on winning. They need to be better on both ends of the floor. I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but if all you're doing is challenging GP1's assertion that the "defense wins championships" mantra is outdated, you're probably fighting a losing battle. It's pretty clear that in college hoops, teams with high-powered offenses have been cutting down the nets for at least the last decade. I'm not saying they didn't play good defense, but it would be kind of silly to think that a team could be downright poor on either end of the floor and win a title.

[zippy5]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

@woot- people think we need to focus less on defense here at Akron, and I don't think they could be any more wrong. Our offense was pretty even-keeled over the past two years, while our defense was great one year, and not so great the next. Care to tell me which team won the MAC?

[GP1]

I really don't know what point you're trying to make, but if all you're doing is challenging GP1's assertion that the "defense wins championships" mantra is outdated, you're probably fighting a losing battle.

Of course it is a losing battle. To challenge the assertion of The Great GP1 is to challenge the greatness of The Great GP1. The greatness is already established so the assertion must be correct.

[GP1]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

Whenever WVU needed something to happen, they had a left handed guard who drove to the basket and made layup after layup (I forget his number...21?). WVUs center made a three point shot late in the second half. When WVU needed points, they got them from their offense and won the game.

BTW, why isn't anyone talking about what a great coach former UofA coach Huggins is? Forget that he dresses like a Sopranos character, the guy can flat out coach.

Why isn't anyone talking about KY's star player missing relatively open shots late in the game? KY got some good looks at the basket and missed. WVU's defense didn't cause it, the inability of KY's players caused it throughout the game. You guys can throw whatever stat you want up about WVUs defense Saturday, it paled in comparison to how their offense played.

[GP1]

Our offense was pretty even-keeled over the past two years, while our defense was great one year, and not so great the next. Care to tell me which team won the MAC?

The team that made clutch shots late in games?

[w00t]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

@woot- people think we need to focus less on defense here at Akron, and I don't think they could be any more wrong. Our offense was pretty even-keeled over the past two years, while our defense was great one year, and not so great the next. Care to tell me which team won the MAC?

You are correct, we played the best defense in the MAC last year... but guess what? We played the best offense too.

Can you guess who had the best offense in the MAC this year? I'll bet you can.

[zippy5]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

Whenever WVU needed something to happen, they had a left handed guard who drove to the basket and made layup after layup (I forget his number...21?). WVUs center made a three point shot late in the second half. When WVU needed points, they got them from their offense and won the game.

BTW, why isn't anyone talking about what a great coach former UofA coach Huggins is? Forget that he dresses like a Sopranos character, the guy can flat out coach.

Why isn't anyone talking about KY's star player missing relatively open shots late in the game? KY got some good looks at the basket and missed. WVU's defense didn't cause it, the inability of KY's players caused it throughout the game. You guys can throw whatever stat you want up about WVUs defense Saturday, it paled in comparison to how their offense played.

We weren't watching the same game...their offense was really bad. 68% from the line, which you pointed out, is in fact offense. Huggins is a great coach, we can all agree on that. At least when he's sober.

also, WVU was up by 12 with 2:30 to play. Kentucky cut it to 3...I assume it was WVU's awesome offense and clutchness that accounted for that swing?

[zippy5]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

@woot- people think we need to focus less on defense here at Akron, and I don't think they could be any more wrong. Our offense was pretty even-keeled over the past two years, while our defense was great one year, and not so great the next. Care to tell me which team won the MAC?

You are correct, we played the best defense in the MAC last year... but guess what? We played the best offense too.

Can you guess who had the best offense in the MAC this year? I'll bet you can.

I'm gonna guess OU I think our decline this year was because our defense declined moreso than the offense. But I don't have any random stats to throw out there to defend that, so take it how you may.

P.S. how are you measuring "offense?" PPG, effiency, pythagorean theorem?

[meatwad]

3. You guys are starting to scare me, everyone here finds one obscure idea/thought and latches onto it.

At least we're not latching onto "Conventional Wisdom" and have points to back up our assertions. I'll take the informed position any day of the week.

[Dave in Green]

..... 1 - You're employing the DiG strategy of picking one game as evidence to whatever point you're trying to make. .....

Really? That's "the DiG strategy" now? I'm the best example you can cite for doing that on ZN.O?

Amazing.

[zippy5]

3. You guys are starting to scare me, everyone here finds one obscure idea/thought and latches onto it.

At least we're not latching onto "Conventional Wisdom" and have points to back up our assertions. I'll take the informed position any day of the week.

I have points to back them up, you just may not agree with them. My point is that the three teams with the least points scored upon them are in the final four. Maybe because they play slow, maybe because they're the three best defenses. Whatever that style is, it seems to be working.

[w00t]

Who hit a big shot from WVU? Their offense was pitiful. And to tell you the truth, if I could find the stats, I'm willing to bet WVU shot under 65% from the line in the last three minutes. Flowers almost airballed two free throws...

@woot- people think we need to focus less on defense here at Akron, and I don't think they could be any more wrong. Our offense was pretty even-keeled over the past two years, while our defense was great one year, and not so great the next. Care to tell me which team won the MAC?

You are correct, we played the best defense in the MAC last year... but guess what? We played the best offense too.

Can you guess who had the best offense in the MAC this year? I'll bet you can.

I'm gonna guess OU I think our decline this year was because our defense declined moreso than the offense. But I don't have any random stats to throw out there to defend that, so take it how you may.

P.S. how are you measuring "offense?" PPG, effiency, pythagorean theorem?

It was indeed OU... the best defense? Can't.

I'm using efficiency as the measuring stick for both offense and defense. At the end of the day, how many points you scored per possession and how many points you gave up per possession is the most reliable measure of how well your offense and defense performed.

[GP1]

3. You guys are starting to scare me, everyone here finds one obscure idea/thought and latches onto it.

At least we're not latching onto "Conventional Wisdom" and have points to back up our assertions. I'll take the informed position any day of the week.

It used to be conventional wisdom that the universe revolved around the Earth.

It used to be conventional wisdom that the sun revolved around the Earth.

It used to be conventional wisdom that the Earth was flat.

It used to be conventional wisdom that fighting wars standing shoulder to shoulder in an open field was a good way to fight a war.

It used to be conventional wisdom that trench warfare was how a war should be fought.

It used to be conventional wisdom that underhanded foul shots were the best way to make the shot.

It is conventional wisdom among the religious right that dinosaurs and humans lived on the Earth together 6,000 years ago.

It is conventional wisdom that defense wins championships. Kind of makes me want to run the other direction considering what great ideas past conventional wisdom held

It's not 1950 anymore.

[GP1]

At the end of the day, how many points you scored per possession and how many points you gave up per possession is the most reliable measure of how well your offense and defense performed.

What if the other team played terrible defense and you still couldn't make shots?

[w00t]

..... 1 - You're employing the DiG strategy of picking one game as evidence to whatever point you're trying to make. .....

Really? That's "the DiG strategy" now? I'm the best example you can cite for doing that on ZN.O?

Amazing.

Haha, I'm sure it's not exclusive to you (I'm sure I've done it myself in fact)... just the most recent example of someone arguing the same point.

My point is that the three teams with the least points scored upon them are in the final four. Maybe because they play slow, maybe because they're the three best defenses. Whatever that style is, it seems to be working.

My points are that you're using borderline useless data (I assume you're using averages from tournament games only?) and that this year's Final Four is not representative of the norm anyway.

[zippy5]

..... 1 - You're employing the DiG strategy of picking one game as evidence to whatever point you're trying to make. .....

Really? That's "the DiG strategy" now? I'm the best example you can cite for doing that on ZN.O?

Amazing.

Haha, I'm sure it's not exclusive to you (I'm sure I've done it myself in fact)... just the most recent example of someone arguing the same point.

My point is that the three teams with the least points scored upon them are in the final four. Maybe because they play slow, maybe because they're the three best defenses. Whatever that style is, it seems to be working.

My points are that you're using borderline useless data (I assume you're using averages from tournament games only?) and that this year's Final Four is not representative of the norm anyway.

Averages from tournament games, to show success in the tournament? useless? their regular season stats have nothing to do with this tournament. Maybe there's a reason this year's final four isn't representative of the norm? Things change. This isn't 2009 anymore

[meatwad]

..... 1 - You're employing the DiG strategy of picking one game as evidence to whatever point you're trying to make. .....

Really? That's "the DiG strategy" now? I'm the best example you can cite for doing that on ZN.O?

Amazing.

Haha, I'm sure it's not exclusive to you (I'm sure I've done it myself in fact)... just the most recent example of someone arguing the same point.

My point is that the three teams with the least points scored upon them are in the final four. Maybe because they play slow, maybe because they're the three best defenses. Whatever that style is, it seems to be working.

My points are that you're using borderline useless data (I assume you're using averages from tournament games only?) and that this year's Final Four is not representative of the norm anyway.

Averages from tournament games, to show success in the tournament? useless? their regular season stats have nothing to do with this tournament. Maybe there's a reason this year's final four isn't representative of the norm? Things change. This isn't 2009 anymore

The data isn't even right anyway. Duke has given up 56.25 ppg in this tournament. You claim that they are one of the three teams giving up the least points in the tournament. However you do not realize that Notre Dame had a ppg against of 51 in the tournament. Guess how many games they won? Texas A&M gave up 56 ppg (adjusted for the OT game they played). I just did a quick glance at the bracket so there could be more. Might want to get your stats right next time.