A New Arena

[Zipmeister]

@zippy5, I get your point. We all bring slightly different viewpoints to these discussions, and there's often little hard data presented to support anyone's beliefs. Ultimately it's up to those who are actually spending the money, or asking others to invest their money, to produce a quality analysis of the market with projected ROI. It would be nice if we could all have access to whatever feasibility studies UA and/or the city may have conducted to see what specific numbers they project for various iterations of a new arena.

How large an ROI do you think a nonprofit organization should shot for?

[pat]

No reason to fill a section with seats, when students should be standing anyway. Bleachers are fine.

Where is it written that students should be standing? Actually, we all stand at appropriate times whether we are in seats or bleachers. I think bleachers look bad and they treat the students like second class citizens. It looks bad to relegate students to bleachers while others get seats. The general public needs to see that the university treats its students as number one. Anything else looks like the same old Hilltop High.

[zippy5]

Where is it written that students should be standing? Actually, we all stand at appropriate times whether we are in seats or bleachers. I think bleachers look bad and they treat the students like second class citizens. It looks bad to relegate students to bleachers while others get seats. The general public needs to see that the university treats its students as number one. Anything else looks like the same old Hilltop High.

II would agree if students wanted seats. Find a top program with chairs for their student sections, there aren't many. I think most students would be more than happy with bleachers along the sideline.

[zippyman23]

If the university administrators are any good the state will be kicking in a considerable share, plus a couple of million from private sources for naming rights.

And this supposed funding will be contingent on UA hosting minor league hockey, arena football, etc.? If so, fine. I have my doubts such funding will be available, let alone contigent on hosting minor league sports.

[Dave in Green]

How large an ROI do you think a nonprofit organization should shot for?

Any number that doesn't represent negative cash flow over the long run would be just fine.

[zippy5]

Any number that doesn't represent negative cash flow over the long run would be just fine.

Good luck getting that with government money

[pat]

II would agree if students wanted seats. Find a top program with chairs for their student sections, there aren't many. I think most students would be more than happy with bleachers along the sideline.

Sloppy seconds... Students don't want bleachers just because they settle for them. I think they would be even happier with seats. We are looking at increasing enrollment to 40,000 as well as attracting better students who will meet newly established enrollment standards (no more 3rd tier university for us). The rest can go to Can't State. If there are a few top programs with seats for students instead of bleachers, then by all means The University of Akron should be among them. Think bigger!

BTW, while government money does not seem likely in my mind, I'm all for it. More power to UA if she can obtain it. Perhaps giving a new arena an academic quality would help. After all, we got a million from the feds for E.J. Thomas Hall back in 1973 by claiming that it would be used as a lecture hall for student courses.

[pdt1420]

For students, bleacher seats with backs. Best of both worlds.

[Zipmeister]

Good luck getting that with government money

Just saying.

Akron is a state school.

If some of the facility will be available to all students and faculty to help them recreate and stay healthy, the state has kicked in before (and All the folks watching the monster trucks want real seats).

[Dave in Green]

If the purpose of a Zips student section is to create a home court advantage, students should not be encouraged to sit and be comfortable. Students should be encouraged to stand and make the visiting team uncomfortable. Some schools with the loudest, most intimidating student sections don't even have bleachers for those sections, but standing platforms. This includes big name schools such as Duke, Kentucky, Michigan, Michigan State, etc. From the Wikipedia entry on student section (my boldface):

..... A student section is an important part of a school's fanbase and a significant contributor to home advantage. ..... The students often arrive and fill their designated section in the stadium before the rest of the fans, sometimes hours before the beginning of the game, and will usually remain standing throughout.

[zippy5]

Just saying.

Akron is a state school.

If some of the facility will be available to all students and faculty to help them recreate and stay healthy, the state has kicked in before (and All the folks watching the monster trucks want real seats).

I think you read that wrong. I think they can get state money, just joking that positive cash flows from government money are somewhat of an oxymoron.

[pat]

For students, bleacher seats with backs. Best of both worlds.

Not best of both worlds. Still sloppy seconds. Give alumni bleacher seats with backs and see what happens. Alumni give $$$ to UA and so do students give to UA. Why do you want to treat students as though they are the lesser?

If students want to stand then they will stand just as the rest of us do. Forcing students to stand is not the same as encouraging them to stand. Many of you need to step out of the anti-student box built by Dominic Guzetta, Don Sabatino, Ted Mallo , Gov. James Rhodes,Bernie Rosen, Ben Maidenburg, Fran McGovern, Mayor John Ballard and the other backward forces that once controlled Akron U/Hilltop High.

[pat]

If the purpose of a Zips student section is to create a home court advantage, students should not be encouraged to sit and be comfortable. Students should be encouraged to stand and make the visiting team uncomfortable. Some schools with the loudest, most intimidating student sections don't even have bleachers for those sections, but standing platforms. This includes big name schools such as Duke, Kentucky, Michigan, Michigan State, etc. From the Wikipedia entry on student section (my boldface):

Nothing in that entry from Wikopedia states that students are forced or encouraged to stand. While it implies that they choose to stand it does not state that they are forced or encouraged to stand by making them sit in bleachers. Our Rowdies stand but their location is not considered our student location. Our students stand in their location and they do by choice. Our alumni and general Akron community members stand and it is too by their choice

Let us encourage our University of Akron to continue to treat her students like customers and not like fodder. GO ZIPS!

[zippy5]

I think you're forgetting the fact that students want to stand.

[pat]

I think you're forgetting the fact that students want to stand.

... and nothing is stopping them from standing. I think you are forgetting that all of us want to sit or want to stand and that students are not robots and are human beings with the freedom to choose to sit or stand just like every other free person at The University of Akron, especially when one considers that the arena will be state-of-the-art, multi-purpose.

I watch the UA student section when I am there at the JAR and although they are forced to sit in bleachers, most sit while others stand. They are no different than the rest of us when it comes to comfort and feeling like they are welcomed and belong. They are UA's main and most valuable customers. Why do you want to discourage their attendance by treating them like cattle with a group mind-set? They are there to be entertained and served just like everyone else in the arena. The more important they are made to feel and the more comfortable they are has a positive influence on how many of them will attend.

Make them feel entertained, comfortable and wanted and they will attend. It is a number of factors that bring students to their arena and not just one. A winning team alone is not enough. UA students are people. They are not animals to be herded and packed into a section like cows in a barn.

UA students like all human beings and other college student are eclectic. No one can make the blanket statement that "students want to stand" That statement is simply not true and makes no more sense than my saying that "alumni want to stand." I sit with fellow alumni and very little students if any and we all like to stand and sit depending on the situation. So, let's stop it with the classic "Akron U truisms" that have contaminated the progress at our university for decades. They are not true.

[zippy5]

Correction: the students that sit down low want to stand. I think they'd also want to cram 'em in too, it's more fun.

[pat]

Correction: the students that sit down low want to stand. I think they'd also want to cram 'em in too, it's more fun.

You sound like a member of RHPB or ZPN. Both groups think they have a magical conduit to the brains of all 30,000 students who attend The University of Akron. It shows in the lousy turn outs you get for your events...rock on D.J. Sparky ...you frisky biscuit you!

[Spin]

Spin, see above. This is exactly why your opinion is flawed. The university is going into this project with the premise that the UA Basketball team(s) are the primary tenants of the building and as such do not have the direct necessity for other tenants. Volleyball, etc can and should still be hosted in the JAR (should they keep it as I expect they will).

So 20 games a year is going to pay off then building. Interesting. And the U isn't looking for ways to bring potential patrons onto campus. Or new ways to sell student life to potential students.

Yeah.

Now, Spin... you keep referencing student use. Have you forgotten about our REC Center which has, if memory serves, 5 basketball courts, two of which are multipurpose and all are used throughout the year? Have you forgotten about all the other fitness equipment and facilities in that building? Is the REC center suddenly insufficient for reasons that nobody has ever mentioned before? There's simply no reason students NEED to be using a basketball arena on any consistent basis. The only possible use from a purely student perspective would be intramural basketball tournaments, but that falls under the "Basketball" category of needs and is very infrequent.

If you actually read my posts, you would have your answer to this.

What others have brought up, and is a very significant and important detail to consider, is if the facility were to be designed to accommodate other sports/events, would there be sufficient, tangible, and quantifiable demand for such accommodations? The University would be monumentally foolish to design a facility with specific accommodations to a different sport or some kind of event (concerts/monster truck/AMA Supercross) without having some connection to an organizing body with interest in hosting such events there, or even investment money so the proper modifications can be made.

Have you gone to websites of arenas in the other small cities I listed? Again, if you want to have a conversation, at least try to see where I'm coming from.

Demand for convention space? The Knight center seems to do that well enough and probably offers equal if not more convention space than a basketball arena could offer.

Never mentioned that.

Ice Hockey? Akron's is a club team (not backed by the Athletics Dept), so the university has no responsibility for them... and I would seriously doubt there was any desire for a rink outside of that club team.

It's not a rink, it's a multipurpose arena. If it were a rink, it would be booked solid (the first couple years the hockey team played they had to take 10:45 pm start times and the famous 4am practices). But it's not a rink. It's an arena where hockey teams would play in front of paying fans.

Concerts? They don't need much, if any, additional space than what the basketball arena would offer (shows like TSO would *NOT* be coming to akron anyways - they go to Cleveland).

A couple thousand more seats drastically changes who you can bring in. Again, look at other arenas in similar or smaller cities.

The point is really this... we can sit here and discuss this matter till its beaten to a drinkable pulp.

Waste of my time. You won't read what I write, or look at my examples, so there's no point in discussing it any further. I don't know what university program you graduated from, but mine was heavy on keeping an open mind and investigating new innovative concepts. Thinking outside the box.

[Spin]

Exactly the reason not to do it. When someone goes to a game at UofA, do you want them to think, "This is just like Wheeling, Erie, Toledo, Dayton and Youngstown."? Or, do you want them to have a completely unique basketball experience watching the Zips win? I want the unique fan experience. You want a fan to leave a game and say, "I can't get this anywhere else."

You can't get Akron Zips basketball anywhere else. Why would a multipurpose building change the basketball atmosphere in any way? It would have the same signs and the same banners as the JAR, the same floor, better seating and amenities, it is the same experience you would get in a basketball-only gym.

[Spin]

And this supposed funding will be contingent on UA hosting minor league hockey, arena football, etc.? If so, fine. I have my doubts such funding will be available, let alone contigent on hosting minor league sports.

The additional events you could host (not just the one example you pinpoint on) would help pay for the building.

Would you loan money to an organization building a new building that will sell tickets to 20-30 events a year? Or to an organization building a new building that will sell tickets to 80-100 events a year? Which one is easier to be pay off?

[Spin]

Just saying.

Akron is a state school.

If some of the facility will be available to all students and faculty to help them recreate and stay healthy, the state has kicked in before (and All the folks watching the monster trucks want real seats).

Including open skate nights, intramural and pickup soccer and lacrosse, year round football. Some students don't want to play basketball and bowl all winter long.

[Spin]

If the purpose of a Zips student section is to create a home court advantage, students should not be encouraged to sit and be comfortable. Students should be encouraged to stand and make the visiting team uncomfortable. Some schools with the loudest, most intimidating student sections don't even have bleachers for those sections, but standing platforms. This includes big name schools such as Duke, Kentucky, Michigan, Michigan State, etc. From the Wikipedia entry on student section (my boldface):

A student sitting in a section with folding seats has something to bang open to make huge amounts of noise at opportune times during a game.

[Dave in Green]

It's funny, but even though Jake's screen name no longer shows up in these arena discussions, if you read between the lines you can almost sense his presence.

[zippyman23]

The additional events you could host (not just the one example you pinpoint on) would help pay for the building.

Would you loan money to an organization building a new building that will sell tickets to 20-30 events a year? Or to an organization building a new building that will sell tickets to 80-100 events a year? Which one is easier to be pay off?

You are forgetting that it costs more to construct a building capable of hosting such events. All things are not equal. Those other events would need to at least earn enough to cover those additional costs. I'm not sure they can.

Including open skate nights, intramural and pickup soccer and lacrosse, year round football. Some students don't want to play basketball and bowl all winter long.

And you need a 7-8K seat structure for this?

[pat]

Hey, just give me a seat as opposed to a bleacher and you can sit on anything you want! The university will do what it will do. I'm open to anything that is progressive and within reason and I trust that UA will do the right thing. Will it please everyone 100%? Probably not and that includes me but in the long run, all will be better for the improvement. Give me a good home court advantage for UA basketball and some top notch concerts on a regular, revenue producing schedule and I say UA will have come a long way. GO ZIPS!!!