MAC Renegotiating with ESPN?

[legendofzippy]

Which statement to a recruit would carry more weight?:

1. Watch us on TV this coming Tuesday against Buffalo.

2. Watch us on TV this coming Friday as we play for the MAC Championship.

I'm going with #2.

If you think only #2 carries weight, then I guess our coaches have nothing to say to a recruit. I respect your opinion, but everything I've ever read from coaches says the opposite.

It's no different than going up to Michigan or down to Ohio State for a game we basically have 0% chance of winning: 1) tons of money and 2) point to those big games on the schedule to lure recruits.

I don't get the hostility toward it though. People across the country have embraced "MACtion", not ridiculed it. The conference is looked at as smart and forward-thinking. I guess I don't see the downside.

[Zipmeister]

Thanks Dave. There's been some discussion of how to quantify this better over on the OU board and as you can guess its not easy to do. Its hard to put an exact number on what the effects of team record and November weather would have. One poster on the OU board pulled the attendance for all of Ohio's home games in the Solich era, home games played on weeknights are marked bold-

2012__ 2011__ 2010__ 2009__ 2008__ 2007__ 2006__ 2005

25,893 24,244 22,955 24,616 19,938 19,823 19,409 24,545

25,542 23,155 21,645 20,188 18,268 18,297 18,546 21,034

23,673 23,146 19,855 17,968 15,018 17,031 15,631 17,959

20,044 17,490 19,455 16,018 13,114 16,781 15,026 16,721

19,122 17,155 15,255 14,756 10,042 15,632 15,010 9,908

16,789 14,155 15,112 14,135* ----- 11,438 --------- ---------

Sorry, it didn't paste with the correct spacing but I think you can get the idea. Each column is a year and each year is stacked from highest attendance to lowest, not chronologically. You can see that once the MACtion games started in 2009 that they were usually the lowest attended but were within a respectable range of the lowest Saturday game, in my opinion.

Compare that with the overall attendance averages over the same time frame-

2005 (4-7) - 18,033 (was 16,406 not including Pitt game)

2006 (9-5) - 16,724

2007 (6-6) - 16,500

2008 (4-8) - 15,276

2009 (9-5) - 17,947

2010 (8-5) - 19,046

2011 (10-4) - 19,891

2012 (9-4) - 21,844

The team record is listed next to the year which supports the previous comments about winning having a positive impact on attendance. But also notice the positive trending the last 4 years in the avg overall attendance and the avg MACtion attendance.

When I said the drop off in attendance was small I was speaking more subjectively than objectively. An attendance variance of a few thousand is hardly noticed in bigger conferences but it can feel like a massive number in the MAC. I tend to look at that size of variance as minimal, others may see it differently and I can understand why.

Side note- it will be interesting to see if there is a culture shift at Ohio and how that affects both students and alumni. In the 20 years prior to Solich Ohio avg 3.05 wins/yr and went to 0 bowls. That's an entire generation of alums whose football experience involved going to Peden to watch the Marching 110 and then leaving. Compare that to the students who just graduated, they saw their team avg 9 wins/yr and went bowling every year. Add on top of that 4 years of DJ Cooper and Co. I don't know what, if any, long term effects it may have but it will be interesting to see.

Akron is in a place where they have to do a lot of heavy lifting without much payoff but once the momentum gets moving I think Bowden will get the ball rolling. You've already got the top notch stadium and the success on the bball court, when the Zips start winning on the gridiron it will be huge for your school and for the conference.

Three things:

Comparing weekend game attendance numbers and non-weekend game attendance numbers to an average calculated using figures from both subsets is an interesting concept (totally puerile, but interesting).

I tend to minimize the importance of the variance; after all, what is attendance squared really?

In 2012, the average attendance of your non-weekend games (18K) was approximately 24% lower that than the average attendance of your weekend games (23.8K). That's pretty big! Especially for a school located in an area where the only other entertainment option besides football is cow tipping.

[Lee Adams]

Interesting conversation. Not sure if attendance at one MAC school like OU is going to tell the story. The schools that don't and have not historically drawn sizable crowds,like Akron,Buffalo,EMU,etc. are going to look at how they can bring in more revenue outside of paying customers. Which probably means the MAC as a whole is going to go after the TV $$$. Some of us may not like weekday games. Some of us don't mind them. Personally I like watching other MAC schools on TV during the week. TV is not going to adversely affect attendance at Akron at this point.

HOWEVER,from a players and coaches standpoint what I have to imagine is a big negative is the 'short week'. When teams play a game on lets say Saturday then turn around and have to play on a Wednesday or a Thursday. Bad for the players physically(and for some academically). And,bad for preparation by the coaching staff. Sometimes teams get the week before or the week after 'off' but if you start playing a couple of those games during the season it builds up.

Wonder what the players and coaches actually think about this?

[GP1]

I don't get the hostility toward it though. People across the country have embraced "MACtion", not ridiculed it. The conference is looked at as smart and forward-thinking. I guess I don't see the downside.

I don't have hostility towards the MAC. We can do better. I think the MAC, and conferences like the MAC, have sold themselves short of their full potential for years. When I say sold themselves out, I mean the Presidents and ADs (in order to pad their resumes) have sold us a bill of goods that is not good for the athletic departments of the universities or the general well being of those universities.

Maybe the mothers of the MAC Athletic Directors and MAC commissioner see the league as smart and forward-thinking, but the rest of the country simply doesn't see it that way. If they were smart and forward thinking, they would be hanging their hats on things other than ESPN and at least one butt kicking a year by a BCS school to get exposure and become part of a real discussion about college football. If we were smart, we wouldn't be getting out paced by the BCS conferences. We need to stop trying to pretend to be something we aren't. (Hint: MAClike conferences could get national exposure during a period of the year when BCS schools are getting limited exposure and they could also have a national championship game.)

[GP1]

In 2012, the average attendance of your non-weekend games (18K) was approximately 24% lower that than the average attendance of your weekend games (23.8K). That's pretty big! Especially for a school located in an area where the only other entertainment option besides football is cow tipping.

Again, why does this have to be an either/or conversation. There is no reason cow tipping couldn't be integrated into tailgating before football games in Athens.

[LZIp]

What evidence is there that it does? I see a lot of junk math (sample sizes are too small to be relevant) being thrown around on this topic along with a statement from one coach who is too humble to say what a good coach he is.

ESPN has been a curse to non-BCS programs and nobody seems to see it.

Well, Im sure if you cared enough to look it up (I dont, because I know Im right), you would find that the deal works out better in favor of a school like Akron than it would at OU. Where the actually numbers in attendance variance between weeknight/weekend games might be a bigger percentage swing in attendance, but a smaller total number, which is what matters, because of our horrible attendance.

I would say the NCAA has been a curse to non-BCS programs. ESPN has been a curse to BCS programs.

[legendofzippy]

I would say the NCAA has been a curse to non-BCS programs. ESPN has been a curse to BCS programs.

Why do you say that? I'd say programs are making more money than ever, and as fans we get to watch more games than ever. Think back to 20 years ago - there is no chance a team like Akron could get a nationally televised game. Plus look at all the bowl games the MAC can make now. Yeah most are low level, but again - national audience.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not an ESPN fan. But I think College Game Day does a great job, and they certainly televise a tons of games across their networks.

[GP1]

I would say the NCAA has been a curse to non-BCS programs. ESPN has been a curse to BCS programs.

The ncaa is a curse to everyone involved in it. It is truly the enemy within as it is a member institution and the members have turned it into the pile of crap it is. The bcs schools have seen the light and are actively discussing leaving the ncaa. They helped create the mess and now have enough money to get out of the mess. The non-bcs schools on the other hand....

bcs schools are now more than ever benefiting from what espn has taught them...which is, how to back up a Brinks truck and unload a bunch of money via television rights. even more, it has taught them that a conference can do better than a contract with espn by having their own network. even better, conferences can have their own network AND back the brinks truck up and unload some network money. they couldn't have it any better.

the onset of conference networks was the final nail in the coffin of d-1a illusions for non-bcs conferences. some might say non-bcs schools have lost the battle. that isn't true. the non-bcs schools have lost the war and really need to have their own "Reconstruction" in the aftermath of this loss. the really good news is, world of possibilities exist out there for us if we would just take advantage of this opportunity. far brighter days are ahead of us if we take advantage.

[GP1]

I'd say programs are making more money than ever,

I agree they are making more money than ever. The problem is they are spending it faster than they make it and nobody will stand up against the insanity.

[LZIp]

Why do you say that? I'd say programs are making more money than ever, and as fans we get to watch more games than ever. Think back to 20 years ago - there is no chance a team like Akron could get a nationally televised game. Plus look at all the bowl games the MAC can make now. Yeah most are low level, but again - national audience.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not an ESPN fan. But I think College Game Day does a great job, and they certainly televise a tons of games across their networks.

Well... I am not sure who you are arguing for, the NCAA being a curse to non-BCS programs or ESPN being a curse to BCS programs, but Ill elaborate on both.

The current NCAA model is a curse to non-BCS programs because they don't have a fair shot to win the championship before a game is even played. Think about it, is there any other collegiate sport where a mid-major has no shot to win the championship?

As for ESPN being a curse to BCS programs (note: this doesnt include Akron)- is that ESPN has a bias to the SEC that is unfair to everybody else in the BCS, which creates an unfair advantage (in my eyes anyways). Yes, with the SEC's success, it makes sense from a business standpoint to do this. However, as ESPN basically being a monopoly, I think it is their duty report impartially and not lobby for the SEC. Not to mention, the SEC has teams (not all) ranked highly every year at the beginning, and undeservedly so (see Arkansas last year) because of what the top teams do. The SEC is a very top heavy league. In fact, the bottom 8 teams went 0-30 against the top 6 teams in the conference in 2012.

Im curious as to how many AP voters have any sort of affiliation at all with ESPN....

[OU Dude]

Another team that's worth looking at is WMU. They hired Cubit the same year OU hired Solich and in 8 seasons the Broncos had an overall winning record and were bowl eligible 5 of the 8 seasons. In spite of that success Cubit was fired. It's interesting to note that Cubit made a conscience effort to NOT participate in weeknight ESPN games, home or away.

Here is a list of all of the non Saturday home games the Broncos played during the Cubit era.

2012- 0

2011- 1, Fri Akron

2010- 0

2009- 1, Tues BSU

2008- 0

2007- 0

2006- 0

2005- 0

Both of these games were the last game of the season, played during the week of Thanksgiving. WMU has played in only 1 weeknight MACtion game, a loss @Toledo on a Tuesday in 2011. WMU plays every home game on Saturday in 2013 as well.

And here's their total avg attendance each of those years with their overall records-

2012(4-8)- 14,579

2011(7-6)- 19,985

2010(6-6)- 14,255

2009(5-7)- 20,330

2008(9-4)- 18,547

2007(5-7)- 19,494

2006(8-5)- 18,625

2005(7-4)- 18,906

WMU was fairly consistent in their schedule, record, and attendance under Cubit but weren't good enough to get past NIU and Toledo in the West. Now we'll see if the new coach can take the program to the next level and continue the anti-MACtion strategy, or will he eventually sell out and start playing midweek games. it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

[Zipmeister]

Again, why does this have to be an either/or conversation. There is no reason cow tipping couldn't be integrated into tailgating before football games in Athens.

Combining the two events may not have the desired impact on attendance. The possibility of cow tipping may have a positive impact on game attendance (especially by attracting OU alums with a degree in cow tipping), but there is also a negative attendance consequence associated with your suggestion. The cows must be asleep for tipping purposes (no we cannot drug the cows despite the abundance of local supply). This may require later starting times which would be offputting to thousands of locals who have to get up before the crack of dawn to milk cows.

[GP1]

Another team that's worth looking at is WMU. They hired Cubit the same year OU hired Solich and in 8 seasons the Broncos had an overall winning record and were bowl eligible 5 of the 8 seasons. In spite of that success Cubit was fired. It's interesting to note that Cubit made a conscience effort to NOT participate in weeknight ESPN games, home or away.

Again, very strange logic and high school debate clubish. There are a lot of variables that come into play when a coach gets fired. Playing on ESPN is way, way, way down that list.

Solich is the best coach in the MAC in terms of getting teams prepared to play and executing. OU isn't flooded with talent because of their espn games. In addition, he has an excellent recruiting strategy that involves using his network of coaches to find out which players BCS schools are going to take a pass on and getting them to come to OU. There is much, much more to the OU football program than playing on espn and I can't believe I have to explain it to one of their own.

[LZIp]

Again, very strange logic and high school debate clubish. There are a lot of variables that come into play when a coach gets fired. Playing on ESPN is way, way, way down that list.

I really didnt interpret his post as him saying that not playing on ESPN was the reason, or any part of the reason he was fired.

If anything, WMU likes that because they get to have their cake and eat it, too. That being, playing all home games on Saturdays (maximizing their attendance/concessions revenue) and being apart of the MAC and receiving the 300k without playing a mid-week home game.

[Dave in Green]

Again, very strange logic and high school debate clubish. .....

As opposed to internet forum debate rulz, or lack thereof.

[OU Dude]

Again, very strange logic and high school debate clubish. There are a lot of variables that come into play when a coach gets fired. Playing on ESPN is way, way, way down that list.

Solich is the best coach in the MAC in terms of getting teams prepared to play and executing. OU isn't flooded with talent because of their espn games. In addition, he has an excellent recruiting strategy that involves using his network of coaches to find out which players BCS schools are going to take a pass on and getting them to come to OU. There is much, much more to the OU football program than playing on espn and I can't believe I have to explain it to one of their own.

I'm not suggesting Cubit was fired because he didn't play weeknight ESPN games, he was fired because his AD didn't think he could lead the program to be better than NIU and Toledo. I mentioned WMU because they are a good example of a team that has had some success without MACtion. The part that is open for debate is what, if any, impact would playing more weeknight games have on the program.

In no way am I suggesting that Solich is not the key reason for Ohio's success, I'm simply trying to say that according to him, the exposure from playing on TV, and winning on TV, has been a net positive for his program. He will also admit to the down sides as well. Last year Ohio had to play 3 games in 12 days because of the weeknight schedule which was detrimental to a team with tons of injuries that needed rest late in the season.

[legendofzippy]

The current NCAA model is a curse to non-BCS programs because they don't have a fair shot to win the championship before a game is even played. Think about it, is there any other collegiate sport where a mid-major has no shot to win the championship?

As for ESPN being a curse to BCS programs (note: this doesnt include Akron)- is that ESPN has a bias to the SEC that is unfair to everybody else in the BCS, which creates an unfair advantage (in my eyes anyways). Yes, with the SEC's success, it makes sense from a business standpoint to do this. However, as ESPN basically being a monopoly, I think it is their duty report impartially and not lobby for the SEC. Not to mention, the SEC has teams (not all) ranked highly every year at the beginning, and undeservedly so (see Arkansas last year) because of what the top teams do. The SEC is a very top heavy league. In fact, the bottom 8 teams went 0-30 against the top 6 teams in the conference in 2012.

I'll agree with that. Yes, the championship participants are basically selected by ESPN, and at this point they shove the SEC down our throats because that's who they have a deal with.

The good thing is that even though money drives it all, viewers control the money. The Bama/LSU championship drew poor ratings and a lot of outrage, so now we're on the path to a playoff.

A slow path to be sure, but the process has at least started.

ESPN is so blatant, but they still get away with it. Look at how they drug out the OSU tattoo-gate (how dare the Big 10 have their own network!), but you hear little about the stuff that happened at ACC and SEC programs that was worse. But once OSU hired Meyer, all was forgiven and their coverage immediately turned positive. Hell, they have them ranked #1 right now. Hiring a former SEC coach and ESPN analyst has its perks for a Big 5 program.

[Lee Adams]

Naturally nobody cares about the players. Admin and coaches and obviously some 'fans' see them as nothing more than ways to bring in cash to the athletic department. The AD can go to the prez and say look at this TV money we are bringing in to the athletic department..Unfortunately at Akron making money with attendance will never be an issue. Never happened,never will.

[legendofzippy]

Eleven Warriors just posted a great article on this topic.

Nick Saban's Idea of Five Conferences Would be Great for the Ohio States, Not So Much for the Boise States

[Zipmeister]

Well... I am not sure who you are arguing for, the NCAA being a curse to non-BCS programs or ESPN being a curse to BCS programs, but Ill elaborate on both.

The current NCAA model is a curse to non-BCS programs because they don't have a fair shot to win the championship before a game is even played. Think about it, is there any other collegiate sport where a mid-major has no shot to win the championship?

As for ESPN being a curse to BCS programs (note: this doesnt include Akron)- is that ESPN has a bias to the SEC that is unfair to everybody else in the BCS, which creates an unfair advantage (in my eyes anyways). Yes, with the SEC's success, it makes sense from a business standpoint to do this. However, as ESPN basically being a monopoly, I think it is their duty report impartially and not lobby for the SEC. Not to mention, the SEC has teams (not all) ranked highly every year at the beginning, and undeservedly so (see Arkansas last year) because of what the top teams do. The SEC is a very top heavy league. In fact, the bottom 8 teams went 0-30 against the top 6 teams in the conference in 2012.

Im curious as to how many AP voters have any sort of affiliation at all with ESPN....

I thought (very little) about it, and men's swimming is one collegiate sport where a mid-major has no shot. Take a look at the annual results of the MAC chamionships for example where the entire conference struggles to provisionally qualify a handful of swimmers for nationals. In fact, most major programs have no shot at a championship which is why half of them dropped the sport. The same goes for women's swimming, but most schools maintain teams to meet Title IX requirements.

[zipdiehard]

@LOZ, interesting article, thanks. The one thing they left out is that some of the current power conference teams might end up being in the "have nots". Schools like Northwestern, Duke, and Vanderbilt come to mind. Great schools, but zeros in regards to football.

[LZIp]

I just read a really interesting comment from the article LOZ posted.

If each major conference partnered with a smaller conference there could be a play in method. The lowest ranked team in the higher conference would have to drop to the lower and the lower conferences champion could be raised to the higher. Keeps teams competitive in the upper conference and gives the lower conferences something to fight for.

This is a great idea that I have not thought of before. This would be like the BPL (soccer), in that it gives teams something to fight for if they are in a lower division, and it gives teams something to fight for in the higher divisions if they are out of contention for whatever the new system will be. It would make for some entertaining football. Though, I dont think I would make it just 1 team, I would want the potential for 2 teams with the possibility of a 3rd (such as a 1 game playoff).

Note that I think this would be a great idea IF the current model ever came to what is being discussed, not that I am lobbying for it now.

Here is a short article I found on it: http://www.elevenwarriors.com/forum/footba...legation-in-cfb

[GP1]

@LOZ, interesting article, thanks. The one thing they left out is that some of the current power conference teams might end up being in the "have nots". Schools like Northwestern, Duke, and Vanderbilt come to mind. Great schools, but zeros in regards to football.

You are right on the money. Throw in Boston College, Wake Forest, Miami, Baylor and Stanford. What do all of those schools have in common? All of them are private schools. The "building process" got so out of control that it now has to be financed with tax dollars. Without schools being supported by tax dollars, they are going to have trouble financing competitive football programs.

Come to think of it, Northwestern, Duke, Vandy, BC, WF Miami, Baylor and Stanford might make an entertaining conference. It could be called something like The Big Ivy League.

[UAZipster0305]

This whole process is analogous to a super nova...

The budgets and programs have been expanding like crazy but will collapse upon themselves and then explode. After the explosion, nothing even resembling the NCAA will be left.

We are currently at the end of the expansion before collapse period.

[Spin]

This whole process is analogous to a super nova...

The budgets and programs have been expanding like crazy but will collapse upon themselves and then explode. After the explosion, nothing even resembling the NCAA will be left.

We are currently at the end of the expansion before collapse period.

You mean we could someday be back to watching college students again someday?