Luis Proenza to retire

[ZachTheZip]

"Silent majority" implies that most people out there are opinionated on a matter. Just because you have a strong opinion on something doesn't make everyone else automatically care about it. That can be difficult to accept.

[Hilltopper]

It'll be a real ZN argument when someone comes up with a lame nickname for JT.

Sounds like a challenge.

I kind of like the sound of "Skippy". It just rolls off my tongue. You know, a take off on Zippy.

[Balsy]

Here are my questions:

1) What does a President of a University do that he really NEEDS a Phd? I know most of them have one but do they really NEED it for their responsibilities on the job?

2) Doesn't a President mainly serve as a leader for the University?

3) Isn't Tressel a pretty good leader?

4) And if most of us agree that Proenza was a good president then why do we think someone he supports wouldn't be?

1. There's a problem with this question: it assumes (or acts as if) this was one of the main arguments levied against why JT should not be president. Those of us who have brought it up have also mentioned the lack of leadership experience that it entails. 2-years of at a job, that was specifically designed to bring the person to a university, with (originally) a very nebulous job description.

There is a level of experience inherent that comes with getting a PhD in a discipline. For example: there's a reason a Biological research organization would primarily want a PhD for top positions: in order to get the PhD, in guarantees a level of interaction within the discipline that the job requires. Firm understanding and experience of other research organizations, grant procedures (and experience) etc....There are always exceptions to the rule; but those exceptions require rather extensive, specific experience.

But to be frank, the burden of proof lies with those claiming Tressel would be a good President. We're rejecting that claim.

2. Leader is such a nebulous term, that can take on almost any meaning someone may want to put to it; and it doesn't accurately describe the responsibilities of a leader. So yes? No? I don't know, define leader.

3. In what? Football? Sure, I can agree to that. Anything else other than that is the burden of his supporters to prove.

4. This question is a fallacy. It's an appeal to authority. Just because he did a good job, or is an authority himself on education, doesn't mean his pick will be good. Or that he is a good elevator of his succession, etc.

[GP1]

I'm starting to really wonder just how disconnected you are from the University. It is impossible for them to be letting in less qualified students than the past because until recently, they literally accepted any student with a pulse. And to answer your question, the quality is better than it's ever been due to above mentioned changes.

Maybe this is true. I don't know. You say it is true. What makes it true?

BTW, I'm so disconnected from UofA that I wrote to letters to potential students for The Roo Crew this year. I like the idea of trying to attract better students so much I took time out of my day to do this. When I see applications are up 50%, it becomes a red flag. It's the kind of statistic that makes me think the University is peeing on our collective leg and telling us it is raining. An applicant does not equal a good student. A good student equals a good student. I want good students applying and accepting openings at UofA. The University has thrown this 50% number out there to help convince us Tressel is the right guy for the job. To me, it is a shallow result unless the quality of those accepting openings shows improvement. It smells funny because it doesn't go to substance. If there is substance behind it in terms of better students accepting spots at UofA, the University should release it to the public as they make this important decision. Good measuring, in my opinion would be:

What is the average SAT score of the universe of applicants compared to the past three years? If this number is up, it shows his strategy is on its way to working. If not, it shows they are padding the numbers and creating an illusion.

What is the average SAT score of commitments (kids who actually attend a class in the fall) to UofA compared to the past three years? This is the real substance. If it is up, it shows good execution of strategy and a check mark in the positive column for Tressel. If it is down, it shows poor execution of strategy.

My biggest concern about Tressel isn't his proven slipperiness. Dave in Green is right in that he comes from a sleazy world and is proven part of it. University Presidents have become just as sleazy as the Athletic Directors they employ and encourage. Tressel will fit right in. It's his questionable ability to show meaningful results as an administrator. Leadership? What makes him a great leader of adults? He is a very good leader of stupid jocks, but does that type of simplistic leadership may not translate well into an environment of adults with brains? Results? I'm waiting to see some depth in those results. I'm totally open minded about this. Someone show me a meaningful result that directly points to the quality of student coming in the Class of 2018 is better.

[skip-zip]

1. There's a problem with this question: it assumes (or acts as if) this was one of the main arguments levied against why JT should not be president. Those of us who have brought it up have also mentioned the lack of leadership experience that it entails. 2-years of at a job, that was specifically designed to bring the person to a university, with (originally) a very nebulous job description.

There is a level of experience inherent that comes with getting a PhD in a discipline. For example: there's a reason a Biological research organization would primarily want a PhD for top positions: in order to get the PhD, in guarantees a level of interaction within the discipline that the job requires. Firm understanding and experience of other research organizations, grant procedures (and experience) etc....There are always exceptions to the rule; but those exceptions require rather extensive, specific experience.

I wouldn't have even answered this, but since you did, I will comment.

I think from your past posts that you are a few decades younger than me, but I hope you realize that some people just have a love affair with the guy, and are saying that the education level doesn't matter just to try to justify his hiring to everyone else. I'd like to see how much they think that acceptable and/or required education levels don't matter in other aspects of their lives as well. I think you'd find that it's just being used to fit this particular argument.

Fortunately, most of us understand that a square peg doesn't fit in a round hole, unless you really bend it, turn it sideways and force it until you can find a way to squeeze it in there.

[skip-zip]

Dave in Green is right in that he comes from a sleazy world and is proven part of it. University Presidents have become just as sleazy as the Athletic Directors they employ and encourage. Tressel will fit right in.

Alright. I'm done. I'm taking back everything I've said against his hiring so far. I see now that he's perfect for the job.

[Dave in Green]

The burden of proof is always on those who make a claim that they want to convince others to accept as fact. If someone asks you when you stopped beating your wife, the burden is not on you to prove you haven't been beating your wife. If anyone wants to convince others that Jim Tressel would be either a great or a disastrous UA President, the burden of proof is on them. Since no one can prove either of those claims, this discussion is all about the opinions of what different people think might happen based on their personal knowledge of the situation and influenced by their personal prejudices.

[skip-zip]

The burden of proof is always on those who make a claim that they want to convince others to accept as fact. If someone asks you when you stopped beating your wife, the burden is not on you to prove you haven't been beating your wife. If anyone wants to convince others that Jim Tressel would be either a great or a disastrous UA President, the burden of proof is on them. Since no one can prove either of those claims, this discussion is all about the opinions of what different people think might happen based on their personal knowledge knowledge of the situation and influenced by their personal prejudices.

Unless, of course, the deck is stacked so heavily against a person fitting the qualifications, background, history and characteristics of someone in that position. Then logic needs to prevail over personal opinion.

[Dave in Green]

The burden of proof would be on someone to prove that their claim of logic is not a manifestation of their personal prejudices.

[LZIp]

Maybe this is true. I don't know. You say it is true. What makes it true?

BTW, I'm so disconnected from UofA that I wrote to letters to potential students for The Roo Crew this year. I like the idea of trying to attract better students so much I took time out of my day to do this. When I see applications are up 50%, it becomes a red flag. It's the kind of statistic that makes me think the University is peeing on our collective leg and telling us it is raining. An applicant does not equal a good student. A good student equals a good student. I want good students applying and accepting openings at UofA. The University has thrown this 50% number out there to help convince us Tressel is the right guy for the job. To me, it is a shallow result unless the quality of those accepting openings shows improvement. It smells funny because it doesn't go to substance. If there is substance behind it in terms of better students accepting spots at UofA, the University should release it to the public as they make this important decision. Good measuring, in my opinion would be:

What is the average SAT score of the universe of applicants compared to the past three years? If this number is up, it shows his strategy is on its way to working. If not, it shows they are padding the numbers and creating an illusion.

What is the average SAT score of commitments (kids who actually attend a class in the fall) to UofA compared to the past three years? This is the real substance. If it is up, it shows good execution of strategy and a check mark in the positive column for Tressel. If it is down, it shows poor execution of strategy.

My biggest concern about Tressel isn't his proven slipperiness. Dave in Green is right in that he comes from a sleazy world and is proven part of it. University Presidents have become just as sleazy as the Athletic Directors they employ and encourage. Tressel will fit right in. It's his questionable ability to show meaningful results as an administrator. Leadership? What makes him a great leader of adults? He is a very good leader of stupid jocks, but does that type of simplistic leadership may not translate well into an environment of adults with brains? Results? I'm waiting to see some depth in those results. I'm totally open minded about this. Someone show me a meaningful result that directly points to the quality of student coming in the Class of 2018 is better.

I appreciate your work and concern for the University and did not mean to take a shot, but I don't know how you could have missed this. If I recall, it was discussed on here.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/03/university_of_akron_to_steer_s.html

Now I realize there is no data available (yet) saying "the average applicant's ACT (I know of less than a handful of people who have taken the SAT in my age group) score is up three points", but let's try and put two and two together. Admission standards raised and freshman applicants up 50%. If freshman classes are anywhere close to the same same size as prior years, common sense dictates that higher caliber students are coming to the University because it won't be half filled with students who received a 16 on their ACT who will drop out after their first semester. You can also look at it from another perspective to make my point. Students aren't wasting time and money to apply to Akron when they know they are just going to get sent to Tri C because their ACT isn't high enough.

Now, I'm fully prepared for your response saying something along the lines of "show me hard data", but this is what he have to work with, and with a little bit of thinking, it isn't hard to come to a conclusion.

[skip-zip]

The burden of proof would be on someone to prove that their claim of logic is not a manifestation of their personal prejudice

Excusing away his well-known negatives and calling them "prejudices" when pointed out by his detractors is quite an extensive reach. Don't you agree?

[Dave in Green]

No one is excusing Jim Tressel's well-known negatives. Some are weighing his negatives against his positives and coming up with different opinions. Not everyone sees the deck stacked as heavily against him as some claim. Everyone has prejudices and no one has exclusive ownership of logic.

[skip-zip]

No one is excusing Jim Tressel's well-known negatives.

What????

[GP1]

Now, I'm fully prepared for your response saying something along the lines of "show me hard data", but this is what he have to work with, and with a little bit of thinking, it isn't hard to come to a conclusion.

The results are still unclear. It's a great thing Akron is steering people to community colleges. However, enrollment at Akron has declined.

The question still remains, is it about applications or a better student population with an opportunity to graduate? Generating applications doesn't seem that difficult. Generating good students applying and then showing up for their freshman year seems to be the real task and the result we should be measuring.

Most people believe more is better. "Tressel got more people to apply; therefore, he is doing a good job." I believe better is better even if it results in fewer units. Using a sports analogy, the MAC would be a better conference if it only had 10 good teams in lieu of some of the rum dums we have circling the drain at the bottom. We've polluted our league with the likes of UMASS and Temple over the years. I don't have a problem with a decline in the UofA student population as long as the quality of student increases. If UofA allows 5% fewer students and increases student quality and graduation rate, that's better than increasing the student population 5% while quality and graduation rates decline. Better students create better graduates who land better jobs and have more $ to donate to UofA. That's a long term winning direction.

In the end, the quality of the MAC means more than the amount of teams in the league. In the end, the quality of UofA graduates means more than the number of students in the school. Akron wants more students and better students. That's a great goal; however, there has been a decline in the student population. They don't seem to be getting both. I'm not sure that's a bad thing. However, if the measurement for Tressel is he will get more students and better students, that doesn't seem to be working out either at least on the enrollment portion of the measurement.

Has anyone asked any of the candidates, "If student enrollment continues to decline, how do you plan on maintaining a high quality of education?" The trend is in declining enrollment. Enrollment at most schools, including Akron, is happening RIGHT NOW. Not a decade from now, right now it's happening and it may not be able to be stopped. This is the trend the next president should be planning for.

This article should be of concern to us and many at schools who have gone through a huge "building process" over the past couple of decades. Specifically, the trend from 1997 to recently has been rapid growth of universities. Many schools, including Akron, have geared up for the growth and many saw the growth coming before 1997. Now that the "building process" is over, the trend has changed to the negative. Ooops. Now what? Some believe Tressel can solve all problems. I believe the national trend is too great for a guy with his background to be able to solve, if there is even a solution in the way the "building process" people want. We live in a much different world than in 1997. The new president needs to understand that and function in a way that shows an understanding of the changes in the next 10 years. Better comes before more.

[GP1]

What????

I agree with Dave. Nobody is excusing them. They are just pretending they never happened.

[skip-zip]

Generating applications doesn't seem that difficult. Generating good students applying and then showing up for their freshman year seems to be the real task and the result we should be measuring.

Interestingly enough, this might all tie together. Let me explain.

As much as I hate to bring it up, everyone might be well aware that Can't State had a capacity freshman class last Fall. They had to turn people away. And they didn't have an ex-football coach with a created "student success" position on their staff. So, what do we do? Brag about applications? Not enrollment, not gpa, not graduation rate, but applications? I'd be interested to see who measures "student success" based on number of applications? Unless, of course, you are desperate to tag something of achievement to Tressel's name.

[skip-zip]

I agree with Dave. Nobody is excusing them. They are just pretending they never happened.

Ok, I will compromise and say I've seen both

[Dave in Green]

GP1, the CliffsNotes version of your extended essay seems to be that if the academic quality of the incoming freshmen generated by the 50% increase in applications is higher, then more students are more likely to stay enrolled longer and graduate from UA, which will help increase UA's enrollment in a positive way and also help generate more state funding. I can agree with all of that.

[LZIp]

GP1, I'm not sure how else to say it. I am not trying to make a case about the 50% increase in application as form of a successful measurement tool (though I believe that the interest is a good thing). All I'm saying is that with the recent change in the admissions requirements (which I believe came into pay for the beginning of the 2012-2013 school year, when JT was here), if the current freshman classes have not decreased percentage-wise relative to the number of students the University is now turning away (and it's a lot. Around half of the students on my dorm floor didn't last a year my first yr at UA), then it is clear to me that UA is increasing the caliber of their students.

If anyone else sees my point and would like to make an attempt to make it clearer, please do.

[ksu sucks]

If anyone else sees my point and would like to make an attempt to make it clearer, please do.

I see your point. But the numbers don't lie.

Until this data is updated for next years' incoming freshman class, we can't judge the effectiveness of the new admissions standards.

[eguins]

According to 21 WFMJ in Youngstown, the Akron Student Government has thrown their support behind Toledo Provost Dr. Scarborough. Will be interested in hearing if you guys have heard who your faculty have thrown their support behind.

All signs point to Tressel being picked by YSU, as early as their meeting on Thursday afternoon when they intend to select, not announce, their choice.

[ZachTheZip]

According to 21 WFMJ in Youngstown, the Akron Student Government has thrown their support behind Toledo Provost Dr. Scarborough.

Another reason not to hire him.

[Balsy]

Another reason not to hire him.

Scarborough or Tressel?

If you're saying Scarborough, I'm not sure why you're so against getting someone who is liked by your student body and faculty. Seems like a huge win, especially after you (the board) making him a finalist because you believe he's qualified to do the job. Faculty and Students are not stupid...and to not use their consultation is asinine. It's also not using all the resources available to you. Your students and faculty are some of the best resources you have, and if you don't trust them to be able to make informed, well guided decisions, then there is something seriously wrong with your university.

[LZIp]

Some Podunk radio station from Youngstown isn't going to know who the student body supports before anyone from Akron does.

[Staton14]

Some Podunk radio station from Youngstown isn't going to know who the student body supports before anyone from Akron does.

TV station