Akron Defense - Better Than OSWho?

[Balsy]

For one thing, realtimerpi shows both FBS and FCS teams. Other SOS ranking separate FBS and FCS. But it's true that various SOS rankings posted on the internet vary quite a bit, with some showing tOSU with a slightly tougher schedule than the Zips. From the wide variation it appears that SOS is not a science. After looking at several different SOS rankings, there's enough variation that I no longer have any confidence in the numbers.

Agreed. Which is why the current NCAA system of deciding "National Champions" is absolute malarkey.

[skip-zip]

also trimmy- OSU does nothing different than most other big-time programs. The Cal game was scheduled when they were good. Its just unfortunate that Cal is now horrible. OSU has played teams like Texas and USC OOC in the past, and plays teams like Oregon and Oklahoma in the future.

Just for comparison, Auburn played Washington St, FAU, Western Carolina, and Arkansas st in OOC this season.

LZip....

1) Please don't tell us you are trying to argue Auburn's schedule vs. OSWho's schedule with the old "they played some OOC scrubs too". Yes, many of the top teams play scrubs during their OOC schedules too, but they have plenty of schedule strength within their OWN CONFERENCE to prove their worth. OSWho does not.

2) "In The Past" is the key word in your post. Those games against USC and Texas were many years ago, and they lost 3 out of 4 of them. They also got pasted in 2 national championship games. The only game they won in that stretch was against a Texas team starting a brand new Freshman QB. These games all together represent a 1-5 record in their last 6 games against Top5 rated teams. I think this was clearly the birth of the "sit back and wait for the better teams to beat each other" philosophy of trying get in national title contention.

3) By 2010, the best team they beat was a Miami team that ended up around 30th in the national rankings. And they STILL felt like they were national championship material that year with an unbelievable 60-something SOS. Just idiotic. And this year isn't shaping up much differently.

Please spare us the typical OSWho talking points. Last week, I had someone tell me that OSWho should have had a game against Vanderbilt this year instead of Buffalo. WOW. That would have made a huge difference since they were 50th and 56th in RPI at the time he was trying to make the point.

Bottom Line: Play good teams and beat good teams, if you want people to respect you. Like I said in the Soccer thread recently, in 2010 Akron Soccer went out and scheduled Wake Forest and N. Carolina to start the season, on the road, and beat them both. You earn respect from sports fans that way. Not by celebrating when the good teams in front of you beat each other, and you move up by default.

[legendofzippy]

also trimmy- OSU does nothing different than most other big-time programs. The Cal game was scheduled when they were good. Its just unfortunate that Cal is now horrible. OSU has played teams like Texas and USC OOC in the past, and plays teams like Oregon and Oklahoma in the future.

Just for comparison, Auburn played Washington St, FAU, Western Carolina, and Arkansas st in OOC this season.

Don't waste your breath. Guys like skip-zip are obsessed with Ohio State, and they're just going to take shots regardless. Really, who cares.

[Dave in Green]

SOS calculations may vary. But one thing is absolutely certain. If a team doesn't play in a strong conference, it must make the effort to sign up for a tougher OOC schedule than teams from stronger conferences in order to approach their overall SOS. The SEC is so much stronger than the Big Ten right now that tOSU would need a killer OOC schedule to come close to an SEC team's SOS. As long as tOSU continues to sign up for an ordinary OOC SOS, they will continue to get skepticism about the relative value of their regular season record from around the country and not just from a few Zips fans on this forum.

[Lee Adams]

That thought crossed my mind as the tv camera caught his clueless stare in the 4th quarter. At least 12 Zip fans wanted him as our coach!?!?

I'm waiting for some pundit to use Akron/Michigan -- Columbus/Michigan as a case for a one loss SEC team to play in the title game.

....OR a Zips fan to make a case for the Zips.

I agree that Fickell probably is not a top notch coach. BUT, if Urban Meyer had a real problem with what OSU's D was doing,he's the HEAD coach. Its his problem. Walk down the sideline and tell LF that what he was doing wasn't makin' it.

Thats on Meyer too.

[skip-zip]

SOS calculations may vary. But one thing is absolutely certain. If a team doesn't play in a strong conference, it must make the effort to sign up for a tougher OOC schedule than teams from stronger conferences in order to approach their overall SOS. The SEC is so much stronger than the Big Ten right now that tOSU would need a killer OOC schedule to come close to an SEC team's SOS. As long as tOSU continues to sign up for an ordinary OOC SOS, they will continue to get skepticism about the relative value of their regular season record from around the country and not just from a few Zips fans on this forum.

Bingo !!

[LZIp]

SOS calculations may vary. But one thing is absolutely certain. If a team doesn't play in a strong conference, it must make the effort to sign up for a tougher OOC schedule than teams from stronger conferences in order to approach their overall SOS. The SEC is so much stronger than the Big Ten right now that tOSU would need a killer OOC schedule to come close to an SEC team's SOS. As long as tOSU continues to sign up for an ordinary OOC SOS, they will continue to get skepticism about the relative value of their regular season record from around the country and not just from a few Zips fans on this forum.

Conference domination comes and goes. If you are one of two undefeated teams in a power conference, you ARE going to play in a national championship. A 1 loss team jumping an undefeated team(power conference of course) this late in the season has never happened in the BCS era. Lets not act like the B1G was never dominant. Some level headed SEC fans think their run is coming to an end sooner rather than later. I'm pretty curious to see how the B1G does in bowl season this year. There is no doubt the suspensions of the OSU and Penn St programs has hurt the conference post season performance. Its funny that people have forgotten about OSU's most recent BCS bowl games wins in 2010 over Oregon and 2011 over Arkansas...but I guess those do not count

I wondered why Auburn and Alabama's SOS varied so much when they both played joke OOC schedule's (Bama at least had an alright VT team). The only difference was that Auburn played Georgia and Alabama played Kentucky. A 4 loss Georgia apparently makes Auburn's schedule nearly 40 spots "stronger." And for OSU's schedule being so "weak", Alabama's only came in a whole 12 spots "stronger". If that isn't a calculation that's flawed..

with this post I'm done with the discussion and "defending" OSU, I realize I won't change many peoples' perspective, but its just some things for people capable of being objective to look at.

[Dave in Green]

I'll just throw in one more SOS calculation for consideration. Ken Pomeroy has said that he respects teamrankings.com for their use of sophisticated and accurate statistical analysis, and I have a lot of respect for Pomeroy. When you look at their SOS power ratings, you can see that the top 25 is absolutely dominated by the SEC and Pac-12. I'm not saying that this is all absolutely accurate. But a lot of people who are not fans of or opposed to specific teams and specific conferences do believe that this picture is not far from reality. Link.

[skip-zip]

Conference domination comes and goes. If you are one of two undefeated teams in a power conference, you ARE going to play in a national championship. A 1 loss team jumping an undefeated team(power conference of course) this late in the season has never happened in the BCS era. Lets not act like the B1G was never dominant. Some level headed SEC fans think their run is coming to an end sooner rather than later. I'm pretty curious to see how the B1G does in bowl season this year. There is no doubt the suspensions of the OSU and Penn St programs has hurt the conference post season performance. Its funny that people have forgotten about OSU's most recent BCS bowl games wins in 2010 over Oregon and 2011 over Arkansas...but I guess those do not count

I wondered why Auburn and Alabama's SOS varied so much when they both played joke OOC schedule's (Bama at least had an alright VT team). The only difference was that Auburn played Georgia and Alabama played Kentucky. A 4 loss Georgia apparently makes Auburn's schedule nearly 40 spots "stronger." And for OSU's schedule being so "weak", Alabama's only came in a whole 12 spots "stronger". If that isn't a calculation that's flawed..

with this post I'm done with the discussion and "defending" OSU, I realize I won't change many peoples' perspective, but its just some things for people capable of being objective to look at.

Good Grief

I already know the standard OSWho / Big 10 talking points. Heard them all before.

But, you are right about one thing. The Arkansas "win" did NOT count. It had to be forfeited because they were playing ineligible players.

[Dave in Green]

Back to whether or not tOSU or Auburn gets to the national championship game, tOSU has a small but clear lead over Auburn in the latest BCS standings. If both teams win next week, Auburn may need a convincing win over Missouri to jump tOSU. Interesting sidelight: NIU is #14 and poised to play in a BCS bowl for the second straight season with a win over BGSU. Jeff Sagarin's computer ranking in the BCS formula has NIU at #2.

[LZIp]

Good Grief

I already know the standard OSWho / Big 10 talking points. Heard them all before.

But, you are right about one thing. The Arkansas "win" did NOT count. It had to be forfeited because they were playing ineligible players.

fact mr. skip-zip: OSU did not use ineligible players. The NCAA in-fact ruled them eligible to play in the game. The whole tat-gate came to light many days before the game. Check it yourself if you'd like. OSU, not the NCAA, vacated the win. Even if that weren't the case, that is seriously a strawman's argument by you. OSU beat Arkansas on the field.

Now this is my last comment on this topic. I realize nothing I say will change your opinion, but thought it was a piece that could be informative to some other members of Zipsnation. Go Zips!

[LZIp]

Interesting sidelight: NIU is #14 and poised to play in a BCS bowl for the second straight season with a win over BGSU. Jeff Sagarin's computer ranking in the BCS formula has NIU at #2.

Great news. I've been following most of the season and it has seemed like they were going to get this for a while. The one question mark was Fresno St, but NIU actually passed them the week before they lost. I really hope NIU can get the job done against BG (and even in their BCS game). I just saw a tweet that NIU's BCS birth last year was worth 360k for each MAC school. That could go a long way to help our recruiting budget (which I've heard is like 30k, extremely low).

[GP1]

Walk down the sideline and tell LF that what he was doing wasn't makin' it.

Thats on Meyer too.

Meyer wants LF gone along with the entire defensive staff. He has wanted it for two years. OSU is going to help LF get a job at another school during the off season, whether it is as a DC or head coach at a smaller school. Probably DC.

[g-mann17]

Meyer wants LF gone along with the entire defensive staff. He has wanted it for two years. OSU is going to help LF get a job at another school during the off season, whether it is as a DC or head coach at a smaller school. Probably DC.

I feel bad for whatever school OSU hoses with LF.

[GP1]

I'm so glad I don't live in Ohio any longer and have to listen to tosu fans constantly defending their program.

tosu knows the formula for success for teams in a bad conference and they are playing it well this year along with Florida State.

Good team + bad conference + horrid ooc schedule = BCS Championship game.

This year's BCS Championship game will probably be the two weakest teams on record.

[skip-zip]

I'm so glad I don't live in Ohio any longer and have to listen to tosu fans constantly defending their program.

tosu knows the formula for success for teams in a bad conference and they are playing it well this year

Nothing else I can add to that.

[Dave in Green]

Can't remember where I saw it, but I stumbled across an interesting comment a fan made after a story debating relative team and conference strengths. The fan

pointed out that Missouri is playing in the SEC championship game in only its second season in the conference, and that all of Missouri's talent was recruited while in the Big 12. He concluded that since a middle-of-the-pack Big 12 team can come into the SEC and kick butt that the SEC is overrated.

[skip-zip]

I'll just throw in one more SOS calculation for consideration. Ken Pomeroy has said that he respects teamrankings.com for their use of sophisticated and accurate statistical analysis, and I have a lot of respect for Pomeroy. When you look at their SOS power ratings, you can see that the top 25 is absolutely dominated by the SEC and Pac-12. I'm not saying that this is all absolutely accurate. But a lot of people who are not fans of or opposed to specific teams and specific conferences do believe that this picture is not far from reality. Link.

Hmmm.

Auburn #4

Alabama #5

OSWho #52

Those are staggering numbers, even if they may vary slightly with competing SOS rankings services.

But, how much do you want to wager that some typical OSU Honk who hangs around here has some programmed talking point that attempts to refute this, or calls you a "hater" for posting it ?

[Dave in Green]

@skip-zip, I think everyone on here understands that I have no emotional involvement pro or con when it comes to tOSU. My only interest is data-driven. That is, I'm only interested in finding data that clearly supports or rebuts either side of the debate. I'm more interested in learning the truth than proving a point.

What I can say after searching the internet at length and looking at many different SOS calculations is that even though most differ to some degree, they are unanimous in ranking tOSU outside of the top 50. The best SOS number I've found for tOSU is #53. Florida State isn't much better, as the best SOS ranking I can find for them is #42. So right now we're looking at a national championship game between two teams that are both outside the top 40 in SOS.

The real question to which I'm not sure there's a definitive answer is how a top 10 SOS team with one loss should be compared to a #40 or #50 SOS team with no losses. It gets down to interpretation at some point, and that's where fans' likes and dislikes of specific teams start coming into play.

[g-mann17]

@skip-zip, I think everyone on here understands that I have no emotional involvement pro or con when it comes to tOSU. My only interest is data-driven. That is, I'm only interested in finding data that clearly supports or rebuts either side of the debate. I'm more interested in learning the truth than proving a point.

What I can say after searching the internet at length and looking at many different SOS calculations is that even though most differ to some degree, they are unanimous in ranking tOSU outside of the top 50. The best SOS number I've found for tOSU is #53. Florida State isn't much better, as the best SOS ranking I can find for them is #42. So right now we're looking at a national championship game between two teams that are both outside the top 40 in SOS.

The real question to which I'm not sure there's a definitive answer is how a top 10 SOS team with one loss should be compared to a #40 or #50 SOS team with no losses. It gets down to interpretation at some point, and that's where fans' likes and dislikes of specific teams start coming into play.

For all of this, wouldn't you say that the data is flawed to being with?

Most of strength of schedule is calculated by final rankings, if the rankings themselves are flawed (for instance providing higher rankings then are deserved) then SOS cannot be accurately calculated. I have no interest in OSU, but the SEC is greatly inflated on perceived success in bowl (home) games.

The SEC championship game will be played by Mizzou (5-7, 2-6 in 2012) and Auburn (3-9, 0-8 in 2012).

So how strong is this "Power Conference" really.

[skip-zip]

@skip-zip, I think everyone on here understands that I have no emotional involvement pro or con when it comes to tOSU. My only interest is data-driven. That is, I'm only interested in finding data that clearly supports or rebuts either side of the debate. I'm more interested in learning the truth than proving a point.

What I can say after searching the internet at length and looking at many different SOS calculations is that even though most differ to some degree, they are unanimous in ranking tOSU outside of the top 50. The best SOS number I've found for tOSU is #53. Florida State isn't much better, as the best SOS ranking I can find for them is #42. So right now we're looking at a national championship game between two teams that are both outside the top 40 in SOS.

The real question to which I'm not sure there's a definitive answer is how a top 10 SOS team with one loss should be compared to a #40 or #50 SOS team with no losses. It gets down to interpretation at some point, and that's where fans' likes and dislikes of specific teams start coming into play.

Nice job with the research.

I do agree with you that Florida State doesn't have the strongest schedule either, although it's much better than OSWho's. But, as many people have stated, where Florida State really makes their case is the fact that they beat both a Top-5 and Top-10 team this year....in blowout fashion....and have not had a close game all season. The way they dismantled #3 Clemson was especially impressive, and that was really the game that vaulted them up near the top spot. So, they clearly earned their status.

[Zipgrad01]

Nice job with the research.

I do agree with you that Florida State doesn't have the strongest schedule either, although it's much better than OSWho's. But, as many people have stated, where Florida State really makes their case is the fact that they beat both a Top-5 and Top-10 team this year....in blowout fashion....and have not had a close game all season. The way they dismantled #3 Clemson was especially impressive, and that was really the game that vaulted them up near the top spot. So, they clearly earned their status.

At Clemson I might add in a national headline game.

[Dr Z]

Which schedule do you think coach Bowden would have preferred his team to play this (or next) year?

[Zips Win!]

tosu knows the formula for success for teams in a bad conference and they are playing it well this year along with Florida State.

Good team + bad conference + horrid ooc schedule = BCS Championship game.

This year's BCS Championship game will probably be the two weakest teams on record.

You can add a variable to the equation:

Good team + bad conference + horrid occ schedule = BCS Champioship game vs. a team playing without it's starting QB.

Gene Smith is a genius.

[Dave in Green]

For all of this, wouldn't you say that the data is flawed to being with? ...

I'd say that most SOS data is flawed in that it's not based on exact science, and I'd also say that most opinions are flawed because they're based on flawed data which can be further degraded by emotional rather than logical interpretation. People are continuously trying to improve the data collection and interpretation, and it's gotten better over the years I've been following it. But it's never going to be perfect. So we have to kind of muddle along by considering all the different methods of ranking SOS and all the various interpretations, and then consider all the opinions and rationale that people express in various places, including this forum. Then you just make your own best estimate from all that, with the understanding that flawed input results in flawed output.