MAC to #BoycottIndiana

[ZippyRulz]

We should probably be glad the article was not titled "20 College football programs that should suffer the same fate as UAB"

[Zipgrad01]

Unfortunately, the reason I'm able to make that prediction has about 0% with being Liberal or Conservative, and just about 100% with understanding demographics, statistics and electoral trends...you know, the stuff that UA taught me.

The MAC needs to worry about ways to improve the conference. I don't need the MAC making political statements for me. Leave laws up to the people and their elected officials.

[Zipgrad01]

Conservative BS stinks just as badly as liberal BS. We have to cut through all the BS from the far left and the far right to get to something resembling rational thought. People with differences can work together and compromise to get things done. It's been done in the past and it will be done in the future.

Unfortunately, I don't agree with this. Just because it is "middle ground", doesn't make it right. The "middle ground" is simply a way of trying to please more people to win elections or not having the balls to do what needs to be done. It doesn't necessarily mean doing the "right thing". There are obviously times when compromising on a middle ground is a correct thing to do, but you are painting with too broad of a brush with that comment.

[Balsy]

Unfortunately, I don't agree with this. Just because it is "middle ground", doesn't make it right. The "middle ground" is simply a way of trying to please more people to win elections or not having the balls to do what needs to be done. It doesn't necessarily mean doing the "right thing". There are obviously times when compromising on a middle ground is a correct thing to do, but you are painting with too broad of a brush with that comment.

Well I guess this is where we differ Zipgrad01, because "Right" and "Wrong" are relative things. They don't actually exist; and if history is our measure, well "right" and "wrong" change rather fluedly.

There's a dozen or so people on this forum regularly, I'd be willing to bet that if we asked all of them...all dozen or so would have different varations of what's Right and Wrong, some more similar to some than others.

There's about 26,000 students at UA. If you were to ask all 26,000 about "right" and "wrong" you'd have about 26,000 different variations, some more similalar to some than others.

Compromise is just about the only way you can ever trully reconcile this. Now, we could branch this conversation into a discussion about moral relativism vs moral absolutism, but that would be a little OT.

[Zipgrad01]

Well I guess this is where we differ Zipgrad01, because "Right" and "Wrong" are relative things. They don't actually exist; and if history is our measure, well "right" and "wrong" change rather fluedly.

There's a dozen or so people on this forum regularly, I'd be willing to bet that if we asked all of them...all dozen or so would have different varations of what's Right and Wrong, some more similar to some than others.

There's about 26,000 students at UA. If you were to ask all 26,000 about "right" and "wrong" you'd have about 26,000 different variations, some more similalar to some than others.

Compromise is just about the only way you can ever trully reconcile this. Now, we could branch this conversation into a discussion about moral relativism vs moral absolutism, but that would be a little OT.

Ok...let me know how that works out for you when you have kids and they want to compromise with you on how they should be raised.

[zen]

I really haven't been commenting around on this little hot button issue, because I haven't read too much into the details it, and because it's conflictory to my libertarian philosophies that you shouldn't force people to do what they want as long as they aren't harming or stealing from anyone, so religious freedom vs forcing people to treat everyone equally, particularly (it seems) in regards to service and business.... I just don't know.

However, one thing I do know, I don't support the MAC by affiliation of my school being in it to TAKE STANDS ON POLITICAL ISSUES.
Focus on your job of running an athletic conference and butt the hell out of socio-political issues.
I just realized the irony that I am a libertarian and turning around and feeling like the MAC should be censored from chiming in on politics, but I really just don't feel like that's what they are there for. An organization is comprised of people, yes, but just because you think you are right doesn't mean you need to take positions. Were you for the Vietnam war in 68 but against it in 72. This things may seem important in their own time, but the clarity that you think you have at that time doesn't make your voice relevant, particularly when you represent lots of people, some of whom may have a different vantage point.

[Dave in Green]

Thanks for bringing up the libertarian viewpoint, which further illustrates the diversity of thought throughout the total population on many different issues that needs to be taken into consideration for government to properly represent all of its citizens.

Are Libertarians Liberal or Conservative?

Libertarians are neither. Instead, we “borrow” what is best of both sides to come up with a logical whole. For instance, Libertarians tend to agree with Conservatives on the need for freedom in economic matters; in favor of lower taxes, less regulation of business, and less government welfare. However, Libertarians also agree with Liberals on freedom in personal matters; in favor of people’s right to choose their own habits and life-styles. In other words, Libertarians advocate a high degree of both personal and economic liberty.

[Dave in Green]

Apparently the MAC's decision to speak out on the Indiana situation was driven by its member schools. John Dunn, president of WMU and also of the MAC presidents' council, urged MAC Commissioner Jon Steinbrecher to take a position on going to Indiana in light of the state's recently passed religious freedom law.

Link

[K92]

Ok...let me know how that works out for you when you have kids and they want to compromise with you on how they should be raised.

Just as long as the compromise is flued, you'll be alright.

[Balsy]

Ok...let me know how that works out for you when you have kids and they want to compromise with you on how they should be raised.

That's a false equivalency.

And keener for your mocking of flued instead of fluid, get over yourself.

[Balsy]

I really haven't been commenting around on this little hot button issue, because I haven't read too much into the details it, and because it's conflictory to my libertarian philosophies that you shouldn't force people to do what they want as long as they aren't harming or stealing from anyone, so religious freedom vs forcing people to treat everyone equally, particularly (it seems) in regards to service and business.... I just don't know.

However, one thing I do know, I don't support the MAC by affiliation of my school being in it to TAKE STANDS ON POLITICAL ISSUES.

Focus on your job of running an athletic conference and butt the hell out of socio-political issues.

I just realized the irony that I am a libertarian and turning around and feeling like the MAC should be censored from chiming in on politics, but I really just don't feel like that's what they are there for. An organization is comprised of people, yes, but just because you think you are right doesn't mean you need to take positions. Were you for the Vietnam war in 68 but against it in 72. This things may seem important in their own time, but the clarity that you think you have at that time doesn't make your voice relevant, particularly when you represent lots of people, some of whom may have a different vantage point.

I don't agree. When it's a social rights political issue, it absolutely is the business of the athletic departments, and conferences that represent them. Universities have an obligation to represent the student body and athletes that they have, which includes any group that may be prejudiced by any law in another state. Not doing so is a dereliction of duty.

[K92]

When attempting to brush off someone poking fun at your spelling, you might want to capitalize his last name. Just sayin'. You really need to lighten up and get a sense of humor.

And keener for your mocking of flued instead of fluid, get over yourself.

[skip-zip]

I don't agree. When it's a social rights political issue, it absolutely is the business of the athletic departments, and conferences that represent them. Universities have an obligation to represent the student body and athletes that they have, which includes any group that may be prejudiced by any law in another state. Not doing so is a dereliction of duty.

Since you're talking about "rights", please be accurate in stating that these business owners own a pizza shop, and they serve gay people. The only thing they are doing is STATING that they would exercise their "right" not to cater an outside gay wedding, if they were asked, because of religious reasons. So, at this point, they have not done ANYTHING discriminatory, whether the final version of the law would eventually support them if they refused to do the catering job or not.

But lets get to the bottom line here....

If you were refused by a business to do a catering job...for ANY reason...why wouldn't you just go to another similar business that WANTED to serve you? We all logically choose the people who we feel are the most desirable to work with, right?

But unfortunately, these little situations get thrown into the spotlight because the Libs see them as opportunities to try to force people to conform to their beliefs.

[Dave in Green]

There are many thousands of different religions and subsets of religions, and many millions of different interpretations of various aspects of those religions. It would be utter chaos if every business claiming any remote religious connection was free to refuse service to any class of people they happened to believe conflicted with their religious beliefs in any way.

The reasonable solution is that any business open to the public should be prohibited by law from discriminating for religious reasons against any targeted group of legitimate citizens. Separation of church and business is just as valid as separation of church and state. Religion should be a private matter between each individual and whoever they believe to be their maker.

[Balsy]

But lets get to the bottom line here....

If you were refused by a business to do a catering job...for ANY reason...why wouldn't you just go to another similar business that WANTED to serve you? We all logically choose the people who we feel are the most desirable to work with, right?

But unfortunately, these little situations get thrown into the spotlight because the Libs see them as opportunities to try to force people to conform to their beliefs.

Because the reason the refuse my work IS important. The constitution protects my right to have access to the services that are available to everyone else, and to not be denied based on the grounds of descrimination (ie, an arbitrary means for saying no).

I've picked them for a reason, style that they do, the job that they do, the reputation that they have and or the price. Refusing my work as an issue of conflict of scheduling, contractual obligations, than it isn't a legal issue. If they want to refuse my hiring them because I have blonde hair, blue eyes, am a jew, or a muslim, an atheist, or gay, of Itallian decent (or any other arbirtrary label) than it is not okay, and a violation of the constiution.

The equal protection clause of the 14th amendment guarantees that people who are similary situated are to be similarly treated. Indiana is 1 of 26 states that has LEGAL same-sex marriage. It's not me trying to push my "Lib" beliefs onto the Hoosiers, its their own freakin law that legalized gay marriage, and it's the freakin Constitution of the United States that protects their right to have access, period. I happen to believe in the rule of law, and democracy.

We're supposed to be protected, underlaw, from the biases of others in the public sphere. The constitution, is the bedrock of this idea.

To use your own example: Your religious liberty is not being violated by baking cookies or cakes for a gay wedding. You're not being forced to believe something, you're just performing a service, and getting paid for it. The logical thing to do, is to just bake the darn cakes and be done with it! No political statement needs to be made. Baking cakes for a gay wedding is no more legitimizing gay marriage, than eating chinese food makes you chinese.

[Captain Kangaroo]

To use your own example: Your religious liberty is not being violated by baking cookies or cakes for a gay wedding. You're not being forced to believe something, you're just performing a service, and getting paid for it. The logical thing to do, is to just bake the darn cakes and be done with it! No political statement needs to be made. Baking cakes for a gay wedding is no more legitimizing gay marriage, than eating chinese food makes you chinese.

When we got together 15-or-so years ago to start "ZipsNation," it was to ensure Internet exposure for important posts like the above.

[Balsy]

When we got together 15-or-so years ago to start "ZipsNation," it was to ensure Internet exposure for important posts like the above.

It's in the OT portion of the forum...and pertains to the conference that we are in, so I don't see the problem. These are important conversations to have, because it does impact parts of Zipsnation, and our conference (agree or disagree with it) has taken a stance on it.

But I'll refrain from posting on this issue anymore.

[skip-zip]

It would be utter chaos if every business claiming any remote religious connection was free to refuse service to any class of people they happened to believe conflicted with their religious beliefs in any way.

In case you haven't noticed, all of the "remote" liberal interests that are trying to change our laws is already causing the chaos.

Again, everyone will eventually understand that this has NOTHING to do a pizza parlor refusing service. It's about the libs trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. They merely used a pizza shop as their vehicle.

[Captain Kangaroo]

But I'll reframe from posting on this issue anymore.

I hope Keener doesn't see this one.

[K92]

I hope Keener doesn't see this one.

Refrain was a word that always puzzled me as a child. It meant stop all week long until Sunday morning and then it meant "sing it again".

[Balsy]

I hope Keener doesn't see this one.

Refrain was a word that always puzzled me as a child. It meant stop all week long until Sunday morning and then it meant "sing it again".

LOVE the trolling.

[Dave in Green]

In case you haven't noticed, all of the "remote" liberal interests that are trying to change our laws is already causing the chaos.

Again, everyone will eventually understand that this has NOTHING to do a pizza parlor refusing service. It's about the libs trying to force their beliefs on everyone else. They merely used a pizza shop as their vehicle.

Oh I'm well aware of the legend of the coming apocalypse where the forces of the ultra super neo libs are destined to face off against the forces of the ultra super neo cons in the final battle for the salvation of the universe. It is writ that it will take place in the holy city of Cowlumbus where billions of flaming buckeyes will rain from the heavens and consume the heathens in the very fires of purgatory. Salvation shall come only for rational moderates who keep faith with the best from the right heavens and the left heavens while rejecting the extremes from both as the work of the devil.

[MDZip]

Refrain was a word that always puzzled me as a child. It meant stop all week long until Sunday morning and then it meant "sing it again".

Your views obviously conflict with mine Keener. I will no longer be providing service to you by commenting on your posts.

[skip-zip]

Oh I'm well aware of the legend of the coming apocalypse where the forces of the ultra super neo libs are destined to face off against the forces of the ultra super neo cons in the final battle for the salvation of the universe. It is writ that it will take place in the holy city of Cowlumbus where billions of flaming buckeyes will rain from the heavens and consume the heathens in the very fires of purgatory. Salvation shall come only for rational moderates who keep faith with the best from the right heavens and the left heavens while rejecting the extremes from both as the work of the devil.

Dave, you get an A+ for creative writing for the day.

You only forgot to add the part where the Almighty God Tressel rises from the remains of a poorly-built, pieced-together football stadium, and returns again to lead his forever-faithful throngs of followers, and rebuild their holy mecca, only to be washed away again in a flood because they repeated their earlier error of building a stadium too close to a river bed.

[Dave in Green]

Skip, the difference is that I have to work hard at my creative writing while yours seems to flow so naturally.