Saving Cleveland

[GP1]

For those of you who think LBJ leaving Cleveland is going to destroy city, I beg you to please watch this video. It is 50 minutes and describes what is wrong with Cleveland; including around the 32 minute mark, the idea that "building" things is an investment in the future of a city. Watch the whole thing though if you want your thought process challenged.

Again, watch it with an open mind and think about the other cities they show and they success they are having if you allow your citizens the freedom to improve a city with their own ideas.

The problem with Cleveland is the incompetents working for the City are telling everyone how they should live and what is good for them. Want to revive the city, build new sports arenas and the Rock N Roll HOF is what they told eveyone. The truth is, none of the promises came true. The idea that LBJ leaving Cleveland was such a myth and lie told to everyone.

The "building" lies are told even today. Want to improve your city?....build light rail....bullshit....public transportation systems are welfare programs and lose money. Build light rail and we can catch up to Europe they tell us.....Thanks, when can we get to 15% unemployment as well. Build solar panels and you can reduce global warming they tell us........great, don't solar panels radiate at 160-180 degrees F while only turning 20% of the sun into electricity. Want to have a good football program at UofA, build a new football stadium and indoor practice arena the told us.....great, we sucked last year. The next time a government employee tells you building a building is going to solve problems, I would encourage you to fart in their general direction.

Please watch this video when you have time.

[GP1]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...c-impact/59485/

Like I said........

[tbozeglav]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...c-impact/59485/

Like I said........

What revenue a city gains (and again, most of it winds up in the team's pockets) is what revenue a suburb loses. Unless LeBron and the Heat attract tourists from far outside Miami or Florida, the net gain to the area's economy will probably be minimal.

Never thought of it that way before...

[Dave in Green]

Economics for dummies is always fun.

Seems as if the major change is that less money from the Cleveland area will be flowing into LeBron's bank account, to be replaced by more money from the Miami area flowing into LeBron's bank account.

The Cavs organization and local companies with heavy dependence on business directly related to the Cavs will also take some kind of financial hit. Nobody really knows how much. Nobody really knows how loyal Cavs fans will remain to the Cavs minus LeBron.

Any money that does not flow through the Cavs organization and other businesses with heavy dependence on business directly related to the Cavs should primarily flow into other areas of the greater Cleveland area economy.

A small amount of local money that would ordinarily flow through the Cleveland economy will be diverted through Miami and into LeBron's bank account by hardcore local LeBron fans who are compelled to purchase Miami Heat gear.

[GP1]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...c-impact/59485/

Like I said........

What revenue a city gains (and again, most of it winds up in the team's pockets) is what revenue a suburb loses. Unless LeBron and the Heat attract tourists from far outside Miami or Florida, the net gain to the area's economy will probably be minimal.

Never thought of it that way before...

Another way to look at it is, the Heat could be taking tourism dollars from other Miami businesses....mom and pop type places that are not owned by millionaire NBA owners. Miami is already a tourist destination so the potential for fans was already there, people just decided to spend their money elsewhere. It isn't like you can fly to Miami for a week and take in a basketball game every night. You might get to go to one because the NBA doesn't play that often. What about the other 300+ days a year? You might also get to see the Heat play in your home town if you wanted in lieu of going to Miami. Even the cost of a ticket through a broker would probably cost less than a plane ticket, hotel, meals, rental car, etc on a trip to Miami.

Would anyone still like to say LBJ leaving is going to destroy the City of Cleveland or have we all moved on to LBJ explaining the origins of the universe? The City of Cleveland will destroy itself long before any basketball player could (see video above). The universe will end before a basketball player could destroy the City of Cleveland.

[Dr Z]

You only had to go to a handful of games this year and go out before and after the games to get a good idea what winning did to business.

Now go out next year and see how many people are in the same establishments on a Tuesday night. Forbes article.

I'll guarantee we will hear some real numbers when business owners start comparing apples to apples in one year from now.

It's all speculation right now. I don't think anybody was expecting Lebron to save the Cleveland economy, but it would have been better if he stayed.

I frequent South Beach in February, it seemed steady, but not packed, looking forward to seeing those numbers too. Bloomberg says Cavs value down $250 mill

[Zip Watcher]

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archiv...c-impact/59485/

Like I said........

What revenue a city gains (and again, most of it winds up in the team's pockets) is what revenue a suburb loses. Unless LeBron and the Heat attract tourists from far outside Miami or Florida, the net gain to the area's economy will probably be minimal.

Never thought of it that way before...

Another way to look at it is, the Heat could be taking tourism dollars from other Miami businesses....mom and pop type places that are not owned by millionaire NBA owners. Miami is already a tourist destination so the potential for fans was already there, people just decided to spend their money elsewhere. It isn't like you can fly to Miami for a week and take in a basketball game every night. You might get to go to one because the NBA doesn't play that often. What about the other 300+ days a year? You might also get to see the Heat play in your home town if you wanted in lieu of going to Miami. Even the cost of a ticket through a broker would probably cost less than a plane ticket, hotel, meals, rental car, etc on a trip to Miami.

Would anyone still like to say LBJ leaving is going to destroy the City of Cleveland or have we all moved on to LBJ explaining the origins of the universe? The City of Cleveland will destroy itself long before any basketball player could (see video above). The universe will end before a basketball player could destroy the City of Cleveland.

We only need to look at a recent history of C-Town to see that the Great GP1 is on target here. When the Browns left town, handwringing abounded about things like restaurants & bars etc suffering because there was no bad footba ... er .. NFL team in town. After some deep breaths, greater Clevelander figured out that there was other things to do in town. It wasn't a one trick town. And they spent that money elsewhere .. in the city. The Tribe, buoyed by having a solid product on the field, absorbed much of it .. and Playhouse Square boomed. Attendance at PS events may not have been higher than between 95 and '00. And growth in playhouse square helped actually draw out of town visitors to the area.

I think the concept that it's just local money being moved around is an important one. The Cavs are still here .. still have 14k+ season ticket holders, and so I don't expect East 4th or the surrounding area to suddenly dry up and disappear. Flannery's was there long before LeBron. Lola and many of those restaurants aren't really drawing pre-game basketball diners anyway.

Due to the commitment of Dan Gilbert to not have his investment drop any more in value than it may have already .. you can count on him working to maintain an entertaining an competitive team. If he's successful in that (read: doesn't need to win a title to be successful) .. the LBJ impact will be minimal. There's still probably going to be 150+ events at the Q each year. LBJ played a hand in about 50 of them a year.

My wife's biggest pet peeve in this whole thing is all this "woe is us!" .. "does our city really suck?" BS that is swirling around. The PD might be the biggest enabler of this by deciding they need to document the 100 good things about living in this area. Ticks me off too. There's PLENTY to do .. it's cost effective to live here .. and its easy as heck to get around. Plus you're anywhere east of the Mississippi non-stop .. and most anywhere in the world with one stop.

Within 30 minutes of leaving my driveway, I can be in a seat in the JAR, the Info, the Jake, CBS, Severance Hall, the Civic Theatre, Playhouse Square, Luigi's, Tommy's, Nightown or any dozens of other worthwhile events or dining establishments. 30 minutes. There's enough options that I don't get to do all of these things every year .. I just don't get to them. But I like that I have the options and I spend money to support the ones I like. Even being a big hoops fan, the Cavs haven't been one of those recipients in a long time.

Can things be improved, absolutely .. and I think the OP links above are worthwhile. CPS especially needs new ideas and attention. Good things will come out of addressing that need. But one rich basketball player leaving town doesn't make me doubt why I live here and like it. If he can't recognize the benefits for what they were .. or choses to prioritize differently, fine. Frankly, I feel good knowing our priorities don't align. Regardless, it doesn't change the strengths and opportunities that exist here.

Go Zips!

[GP1]

The PD might be the biggest enabler of this by deciding they need to document the 100 good things about living in this area. Ticks me off too. There's PLENTY to do .. it's cost effective to live here .. and its easy as heck to get around.

What the Plain Dealer and ABJ have done is even worse than you describe. They buy, hook/line/sinker, everything the powers that be in Akron and Cleveland feed to them. If they want to build a white elephant, they agree with the Cities.

Nobody ever says that Cleveland is becoming full of whitel elephants (Gund...there was nothing wrong with Richfield, Browns Stadium...taxpayers had to pay for a stadium for that nonsense?......Jacobs Field...OK, maybe they did need a baseball field, Rock & Roll hof...loses money, wait until they build the new Convention Center....disaster). The next thing you know Akron will want to build a Hall of Fame for Hall of Fames.

I hope everyone stops buying the idea that stadiums and destination places will make cities that were NEVER destination cities a destination.

[ZachTheZip]

I hope everyone stops buying the idea that stadiums and destination places will make cities that were NEVER destination cities a destination.

The way to make a city into a "destination" for out-of-towners is to first make it a fun place to go for the locals in that city and the surrounding suburbs. If the people in that city don't have anything good to recommend, why would any tourist want to go there?

[Zip Watcher]

I agree with the concept that building facilities will not rescue the economy. It may prop up some construction jobs for a while, but that alone doesn't impact the entire economy.

I do however think that venues that can support dozens upon dozens of dates have some merit in investment. The Q & Convention center could fall into the favorable category in my mind. IIRC all the work at Playhouse Square was done largely without direct government financing (ie city or county tax revenue).

If you build or renovate these facilities and are able to book them for more than 3 solid dates a WEEK .. then they have the opportunity to positively impact the community. Getting that many dates filled is the great unknown w/ the Convention Center. Seems to me the Q is pretty well utilized. The CBS holds maybe 12 events a year. Not good enough.

Someone here beats the drum about using the Info for anything and everything possible. I think he / she is correct.

Go Zips!

[Dr Z]

I agree with the concept that building facilities will not rescue the economy.

I do however think that venues that can support dozens upon dozens of dates have some merit in investment.

Dan Gilbert plans to get that casino here in 2013. Then we will all be able to invest.

Someone here beats the drum about using the Info for anything and everything possible. I think he / she is correct.

+1 Somebody just told me they went to see some band/drum thing there. It was the first time they saw it, and he said he was blown away.

[ZachTheZip]

Someone here beats the drum about using the Info for anything and everything possible. I think he / she is correct.

+1 Somebody just told me they went to see some band/drum thing there. It was the first time they saw it, and he said he was blown away.

Events have been happening there about once a week this summer, but they're all either low-key or aimed at very limited audiences like the drum thing your friend saw. I'm still waiting for the first outdoor concert to be held there.

[GP1]

I hope everyone stops buying the idea that stadiums and destination places will make cities that were NEVER destination cities a destination.

The way to make a city into a "destination" for out-of-towners is to first make it a fun place to go for the locals in that city and the surrounding suburbs. If the people in that city don't have anything good to recommend, why would any tourist want to go there?

In the 1950s, Cleveland was the sixth largest city in the US. They had the Browns, Indians, Playhouse Square (the second largest theater district in the US even today), Severance Hall (if you have never seen the Cle Orch here, shame on you), a convention center (my wife's cousin saw the Beatles there) and Lake Erie. Everything that I just listed can still be found in Cleveland. It wasn't a destination city then and it isn't ever going to be a destination city. Las Vegas, Orlando, Miami, Atlanta, LA, New York, Boston, etc are destination cities, not Cleveland. Want to have a trade show and convention where nobody shows up?.......Have it in Cleveland.

The people of NE Ohio are well educated and hard working. Make a city that is friendly to business and those educated and hard working people will take advantage of the already exising things to do, which were all in Cleveland in the 50s. Make it a great place to live again with low crime and good schools and the town will be packed every night. Make it a city where you don't pay taxes through the nose for everything and people will move back.

The answer is not another convention center or some sort of hall of fame.

[mes102]

2020 Cleveland or 2022 Cleveland?

if they don't get it, I meant 2020 as Olympics and 2022 as World Cup

[Spin]

I don't understand this. A winning team draws fans from a wide area. Not just the suburbs. Many of us go to games. People from Sandusky, Lorain, Akron, Canton, Ashtabula, Youngstown. These people are not going to drive to Cleveland to see a movie or go out to eat, they have all that right there where they live. Probably within 5 miles.

In a small way this may help the local establishments, probably not enough to notice. But it's going to hit the restaurants and bars and hotels at Gateway hard. The arena workers. Souvenir sales.

The Cavs have drawn over 20,000 per game the last four years. The year before The Playa came along they drew 14,000. That's a quarter million fans lost. And I bet money if they tracked the demographics, a lot more of those fans are from outside Cuyahoga County than from within.

Anyway, how to save Cleveland? Like Hammer says, every day 20-something year old males move out of Cleveland everyday. LeGone just made the most noise.

Just listen to the typical Clevelander. "This is a hard working blue collar town. Hard hat, hard working". Someone should tell them there are no hard hat cities anymore. Unless you go to Mexico or China or Saudi Arabia. You can just picture these guys getting up in the morning, putting on their overalls, and going down to the steel mills with their lunch bucket in their hand. Waiting for it to reopen. It aint coming back. Hell the biggest one is now a shopping center. You have to find something else.

Pittsburgh did. Columbus did. Mansfield and Akron is trying. But Cleveland, Youngstown, Lorain, they're all waiting for the mills to open back up. "Hey, there's a hundred or so guys working at the Cleveland and Lorain and Canton mills, it's just a matter of time. We're tough, we're going to recover and make lots of steel again."

Cleveland is done. Youngstown is done. Warren is done. Lorain. Sandusky. Canton. Maybe even Elyria. Stick a fork in 'em.

[GP1]

The Cavs have drawn over 20,000 per game the last four years. The year before The Playa came along they drew 14,000. That's a quarter million fans lost. And I bet money if they tracked the demographics, a lot more of those fans are from outside Cuyahoga County than from within.

Here's another way to look at it.

Instead of everyone in Cleveland waiting for the next savior, they make it a business friendly city where people want to move their companies to Cleveland. Then, they can make it advantageous for people to live in Cleveland by improving the schools and communities. It wouldn't take much to draw 6,000 people into Cleveland to LIVE instead of going to basketball games.

6,000 x 42 home games a year = 250,000. You are correct about that. 6,000 x 365 days a year = 2,190,000. That would be the same as having 156.4 MORE home games a year with 14,000 people in attendance. The answer is not having good basketball teams. Is New York City a great place because of the Knicks? Hell no, the Knicks stink. New York City is great because there are tons of people working and living there and those people contribute to all sorts of businesses, not just the Knicks. Cleveland has just as good of an orchestra as NYC. Cleveland has the second largest theater district in the US next to NYC. With the exception of hockey, Cleveland has all of the same pro sports teams. Cleveland has great museums just like NYC. Cleveland has a better hospital in the Cleveland Clinic than anything NYC has to offer. Cleveland is a hub for medical research around the world with the CC and University Hospital. In less than an hour from downtown Cleveland, you can go sailing, get drunk on South Bass Island, Cedar Point, fishing, Cuyahoga National Park, ski, D-1A MAC football, visit historic homes such as Stan Hewitt Hall in Akron, Don Drumm Studio, hunting, visit farm country, etc. Cleveland needs to stop feeling sorry for itself.

The answer is having a business friendly city that people would want to live in. It is not unreasonable to think that increasing the population of downtown Cleveland by 6,000 people would be that great of a stretch.

What LBJ leaving Cleveland has done is provide cover for the government of Cleveland for the next few years. Anything that goes wrong they can throw blame on LBJ. It isn't LBJ's fault Cleveland is in the shape it is and it isn't his fault if they can't get their act together.

[Spin]

I know we're talking about two different things. My point is a mediocre Cavs team will hurt businesses in downtown, they're not going to make that up by people from Sandusky going downtown to watch Toy Story 35. it's going to cost jobs.

But that's a drop in the bucket of Cleveland's problems. As I said later in my post.

[Dr Z]

My point is a mediocre Cavs team will hurt businesses in downtown

I went to a handful of Cavs games this year where it was 3 deep at a packed Harry Buffalo's and Flannery's before and after the game. Went to the Indians game Saturday night (17,221 attendance). Sat four at the bar with plenty of room on either side of us before the game at both places. Went to Forties after the game, there were two people at the bar. Maybe the Yankees in town for a month will help?

[Dr Z]

The excitement is back.

In an effort to extend fan engagement beyond the 4 walls of The Q, the Cavaliers are partnering with 40 local bars and restaurants to hold “Official Watch Parties” throughout Cleveland! Between 6:00 - 9:30 PM, our Official Watch Party Squad will interact with bar & restaurant patrons at each location with fun, fan-engaging contesting, giveaways and more! In addition to the giveaways, they will also have 100 of our official “Opening Night” t-shirts to distribute—the very same shirt that fans attending the game at The Q will receive! This effort is generously supported by Hennessy, Belvedere and Grand Marnier! Join us and unite with other Wine & Gold Fans as we’re #AllForCLE!

All the locations.

[Dr Z]

Platinum-selling rock band Imagine Dragons will perform during a pregame concert outside of The Q for tomorrow's big event. Some seats for LeBron James' return are going for five figures on Stub Hub. Usher and Kendrick Lamar will be there, while there are rumors Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z and Beyonce might join them.

Anyone want to guess what tv share Cleveland will pull tomorrow night?

[K92]

Platinum-selling rock band Imagine Dragons will perform during a pregame concert outside of The Q for tomorrow's big event. Some seats for LeBron James' return are going for five figures on Stub Hub. Usher and Kendrick Lamar will be there, while there are rumors Justin Timberlake, Jay-Z and Beyonce might join them.

Anyone want to guess what tv share Cleveland will pull tomorrow night?

I don't know Doc, but my wife asked me if I wanted to go to a watch party at one of the downtown bars tomorrow. That makes me think it's going to be fairly huge if my wife is suggesting that on a Thursday night.

[GP1]

Anyone want to guess what tv share Cleveland will pull tomorrow night?

Nationally? +/- 3% of what it was his first game with Miami.

[Dr Z]

I don't know Doc, but my wife asked me if I wanted to go to a watch party at one of the downtown bars tomorrow.

Take your Zips sign for SportsCenter.

[Dr Z]

Nationally? +/- 3% of what it was his first game with Miami.

I'm sitting on the numbers from his first game with Miami. New numbers from tonight's game should be available Friday or Saturday.

"For me, I know all of us shouldn't take this moment for granted," James said after shootaround Thursday in advance of the Cavs' home game against the New York Knicks. "This is probably one of the biggest sporting events that is up there ever." source

[LZIp]

I'm sitting on the numbers from his first game with Miami. New numbers from tonight's game should be available Friday or Saturday.

"For me, I know all of us shouldn't take this moment for granted," James said after shootaround Thursday in advance of the Cavs' home game against the New York Knicks. "This is probably one of the biggest sporting events that is up there ever." source

Ever hear back on this?