Rhodes Arena

[UADavid]

A much better location would be the Central-Hower location. For that to happen, the APS would have to realize Akron does not need 7 high schools and could sell that property using East HS as the fill in building while the other schools are upgraded. That is not likely to happen.

[ZippyRulz]

Just to throw out a couple of ideas...1. Buy The Chapel property for about $1.5M and help them find another location where they could custom build a new state of the art church. Then we could use that site for basketball or other campus expansion (+ tailgating). The problem is they currently have a good central Akron location easily accessible from Rte 8 so it may take more money to get them to move off our campus

Dude, a jury gave the Nemers over $1 million for their run down hell holes. Buying out The Chapel would cost 3 times your estimate at least.

Yeah, you're talking about an eminent domain takeover where property values become wildly inflated; I'm not suggesting that...just a friendly offer on the table in case they ever want to find more space somewhere for a megachurch building + ball fields, their own school, etc. Looking at the Google map, their footprint isn't all that big and they have to use campus parking plus they've already had to create a satellite church in Green. Knute Larson is about to retire so who knows what the new leadership might consider. It might be cheaper and easier than buying out a block of 20-30 individual houses or businesses along Exchange St. or dealing with county school board beaurocrats on CHHS.

[Roo]

A much better location would be the Central-Hower location. For that to happen, the APS would have to realize Akron does not need 7 high schools and could sell that property using East HS as the fill in building while the other schools are upgraded. That is not likely to happen.

Central Hower is not a school anymore....Is that building even in use anymore?

[Blue & Gold]

I think if we want to expand the campus footprint we'll want to move to the south. If we could acquire everything down to 77 that would be fantastic. RAZE EVERYTHING!!! That whole neighborhood is a ghetto. The Chapel is a great neighbor and adds to the quality of campus life.

[ZachTheZip]

A much better location would be the Central-Hower location. For that to happen, the APS would have to realize Akron does not need 7 high schools and could sell that property using East HS as the fill in building while the other schools are upgraded. That is not likely to happen.

Central Hower is not a school anymore....Is that building even in use anymore?

It most certainly a school. Currently it houses the entirety of East High School while renovations are completed, and in the future it will see more relocated HS students from around the city. Central Hower will not be empty for many years.

[zen]

I think if we want to expand the campus footprint we'll want to move to the south. If we could acquire everything down to 77 that would be fantastic. RAZE EVERYTHING!!! That whole neighborhood is a ghetto. The Chapel is a great neighbor and adds to the quality of campus life.

do you have any idea how many properties you are talking about?I agreed that the trying to aquire the chapel is not the way to expand. CentralHower would be the way to go but there might be some serious politics involved in that. But the sheer number of individual properties going south to 77 is ridiculous. Okay, let's say for arguments sake that you don't want all that land tucked in next to SR.8 south to I.77 all the way over to the ledges. Let's just say that you want to take enough to put an arena in. The question is why? Downtown and in lieu of the JAR both make more sense. Hell, even talking the chapel out of their plot is cheaper and more strategic. All those 110yo houses south of campus may be bordering on blight, but you would need a team of eminent domain lawyers and used car salesmen on the street (soliciting undercover to buy properties) and a couple of decades to get that done.

[Blue & Gold]

I think if we want to expand the campus footprint we'll want to move to the south. If we could acquire everything down to 77 that would be fantastic. RAZE EVERYTHING!!! That whole neighborhood is a ghetto. The Chapel is a great neighbor and adds to the quality of campus life.

do you have any idea how many properties you are talking about?I agreed that the trying to aquire the chapel is not the way to expand. CentralHower would be the way to go but there might be some serious politics involved in that. But the sheer number of individual properties going south to 77 is ridiculous. Okay, let's say for arguments sake that you don't want all that land tucked in next to SR.8 south to I.77 all the way over to the ledges. Let's just say that you want to take enough to put an arena in. The question is why? Downtown and in lieu of the JAR both make more sense. Hell, even talking the chapel out of their plot is cheaper and more strategic. All those 110yo houses south of campus may be bordering on blight, but you would need a team of eminent domain lawyers and used car salesmen on the street (soliciting undercover to buy properties) and a couple of decades to get that done.

Yeah, I was kind of joking with that suggestion. I think we should go south, but all the way to 77? That was hyperbolic.

[Roo]

A much better location would be the Central-Hower location. For that to happen, the APS would have to realize Akron does not need 7 high schools and could sell that property using East HS as the fill in building while the other schools are upgraded. That is not likely to happen.

Central Hower is not a school anymore....Is that building even in use anymore?

It most certainly a school. Currently it houses the entirety of East High School while renovations are completed, and in the future it will see more relocated HS students from around the city. Central Hower will not be empty for many years.

I had no idea...what other HS is being renovated besides East??? Central is way out of the way for students at Ellet and Buchtel? Firestone, Kenmore and North are in fine shape are they not?

[72 Roo]

A much better location would be the Central-Hower location. For that to happen, the APS would have to realize Akron does not need 7 high schools and could sell that property using East HS as the fill in building while the other schools are upgraded. That is not likely to happen.

Central Hower is not a school anymore....Is that building even in use anymore?

It most certainly a school. Currently it houses the entirety of East High School while renovations are completed, and in the future it will see more relocated HS students from around the city. Central Hower will not be empty for many years.

I had no idea...what other HS is being renovated besides East??? Central is way out of the way for students at Ellet and Buchtel? Firestone, Kenmore and North are in fine shape are they not?

Buying Central Hower from APS is not that far fetched. We need to do cheap but effective changes to the JAR while we fill it to capacity regularly. That will take 2-3 years. After that either buy C-H from APS or negotiate a 5-10 rental agreement with the city on an arena they may build. After that length of time C-H will be of no use to APS and we will have accrued the money to build what we need. I can also see us razing the JAR and building a new arena on the surrounding footprint. In the interim we could make short use of a city built facility, probably 2 years. When C-H does become available in this scenario we buy it from APS for more dorms and academic buildings. As much as we talk about it on this board I have confidence Dr. Proenza and the board of trustees have a plan to deal with the need for increased capacity when the time comes. He is way ahead of most everyone when it comes to strategic thinking. The new 10 year strategic planning process will continue to exceed our expectations when it is made public.

[g-mann17]

I had no idea...what other HS is being renovated besides East??? Central is way out of the way for students at Ellet and Buchtel? Firestone, Kenmore and North are in fine shape are they not?

All of the HS are being rebuilt or renovated. Right now they are trying to find out how many high schools will actually exist (between 4-6). It's all based on state size requirement in order to get the money the state owes the district for the school rebuild program.Central is to be maintained as the transition building until they know how many schools are needed and the project is complete. APS won't be selling that building anytime in the near future (no sooner than 8 years if ever)

[g-mann17]

...I can also see us razing the JAR and building a new arena on the surrounding footprint. In the interim we could make short use of a city built facility, probably 2 years. When C-H does become available in this scenario we buy it from APS for more dorms and academic buildings.

I don't see razing the JAR as a solution. The building is still viable and we have smaller indoor sports (rifle, volleyball, etc.) that could use it, as well as the fact that it holds the athletics offices.Here is what you really have to look at. It will cost 15-20 million to structurally upgrade the JAR. Max expansion would be 8000. This would only be seating area. No improvements that would bring in major ticket prices (i.e. Info Loges/club seating)A brand new 8000 seat Arena with athletics offices, concession areas, state of the art equipment, proper sightlines, concessions and luxury seating is going to cost about 57.6 million (assuming a $7200 per seat cost estimate). Plus an additional cost in tearing down the JAR and leasing space to play while construction occurs. (And this is where the bad PR will come from, "University tears down 26 year old multi-million dollar facility for something bigger" people will see that as wastefull). All to be footed by the University. In comparison using the same math, a 12000 seat arena would cost 86.4 million. It could be split between the city, county and university. 28.8 million per entity. You have the ability to sell season tickets for multiple sports as well as licensing loge for the University and non University events seperately (or jointly for far more than just University events). You also get to keep the JAR so the University isn't footing the operation bill for the new facility when Volleyball plays or when Women's basketball is in the MAC portion of the schedule. This would help both sides in recruiting (men's and women's BB) because now it's "look at our arena, this is solely for women's basketball we don't have to split time with the men at all".Those are rough cost estimates for the options we have. A downtown arena is 13 million more (for the University) and would probably be able to be paid off much faster than a brand new University only arena. The expansion creates a crisis of which sports get bumped while construction is underway.

[Dave in Green]

I agree it doesn't make good economic sense to raze the JAR. It's a good, sound building capable of serving UA for many years in the future in various capacities. I also don't think a structural upgrade to add seating to the JAR makes good economic sense. It makes more sense to me to limit any JAR upgrades to better sight lines from the current 5,500 seats and minor cosmetics to make it at least somewhat more inviting to fans. Any substantial financial investment should be reserved for a new facility, either alongside the JAR, nearby on campus or downtown.Going back to the Google satellite view of the JAR area, there's enough real estate between the JAR and the parking deck to build a facility roughly twice the size of the JAR by eliminating a couple of small buildings and surface parking lots. It should be possible to build a new facility alongside the JAR without disrupting scheduled events, and then have a seamless transition to events in the new facility.Personally, it doesn't matter that much to me what plan ultimately wins out, as I enjoy Zips basketball wherever it's played.

[Blue & Gold]

...I can also see us razing the JAR and building a new arena on the surrounding footprint. In the interim we could make short use of a city built facility, probably 2 years. When C-H does become available in this scenario we buy it from APS for more dorms and academic buildings.

I don't see razing the JAR as a solution. The building is still viable and we have smaller indoor sports (rifle, volleyball, etc.) that could use it, as well as the fact that it holds the athletics offices.Here is what you really have to look at. It will cost 15-20 million to structurally upgrade the JAR. Max expansion would be 8000. This would only be seating area. No improvements that would bring in major ticket prices (i.e. Info Loges/club seating)A brand new 8000 seat Arena with athletics offices, concession areas, state of the art equipment, proper sightlines, concessions and luxury seating is going to cost about 57.6 million (assuming a $7200 per seat cost estimate). Plus an additional cost in tearing down the JAR and leasing space to play while construction occurs. (And this is where the bad PR will come from, "University tears down 26 year old multi-million dollar facility for something bigger" people will see that as wastefull). All to be footed by the University. In comparison using the same math, a 12000 seat arena would cost 86.4 million. It could be split between the city, county and university. 28.8 million per entity. You have the ability to sell season tickets for multiple sports as well as licensing loge for the University and non University events seperately (or jointly for far more than just University events). You also get to keep the JAR so the University isn't footing the operation bill for the new facility when Volleyball plays or when Women's basketball is in the MAC portion of the schedule. This would help both sides in recruiting (men's and women's BB) because now it's "look at our arena, this is solely for women's basketball we don't have to split time with the men at all".Those are rough cost estimates for the options we have. A downtown arena is 13 million more (for the University) and would probably be able to be paid off much faster than a brand new University only arena. The expansion creates a crisis of which sports get bumped while construction is underway.

Thanks for the post! I found it very interesting. Where did you get the $7200 per seat cost estimate? Is that an industry standard?Two things: 1. No, I don't see us razing the JAR. It could still be used for so many things. Women's basketball & volleyball. Band skull session before the football games - then perhaps a march to the Info. When OSU built the Value City Arena they didn't raze the old St. John Arena. There may be some wisdom there.2. I really think the location of a new arena is going to be across the street from Canal Park. I know it's not with our other athletic facilities, but it's still on campus and it would help downtown businesses a lot more than if it were placed where the JAR currently sits. Nothing, of course, is written in stone, but I think that's the unspoken agreement/assumption between the U and the city. It's likely going to be a joint effort. Besides, the central downtown area needs the benefits of an arena more than our central campus area does.

[g-mann17]

Thanks for the post! I found it very interesting. Where did you get the $7200 per seat cost estimate? Is that an industry standard?

I made my own factor. Based on Stroh Arena (BGSU proposed facility) and some comparisons with Value City and Wolstein Center.Stroh will be built in the near future at a cost of $57.6 million. It's an 8000 seat arena. Hence $7200.It seemed accurate since Value City arena was built in 1998(give or take) at a cost of $115 Million. It is a 19000 seat arena ($6060/seat). Wolstein was built in the mid to late 80's for a cost of 55 million holds 13000 ($4230/seat).I figured my $7200 would be a pretty good estimate based on modern construction costs and inflation. (and item costing $4230 in 1987 would cost $7625 as of 2007.)

[Blue & Gold]

Thanks for the post! I found it very interesting. Where did you get the $7200 per seat cost estimate? Is that an industry standard?

I made my own factor. Based on Stroh Arena (BGSU proposed facility) and some comparisons with Value City and Wolstein Center.Stroh will be built in the near future at a cost of $57.6 million. It's an 8000 seat arena. Hence $7200.It seemed accurate since Value City arena was built in 1998(give or take) at a cost of $115 Million. It is a 19000 seat arena ($6060/seat). Wolstein was built in the mid to late 80's for a cost of 55 million holds 13000 ($4230/seat).I figured my $7200 would be a pretty good estimate based on modern construction costs and inflation. (and item costing $4230 in 1987 would cost $7625 as of 2007.)

Brilliant! Doing that simple and seemingly obvious formulation never crossed my mind! I did find one mistake in your numbers though. According to BGSU's website, the Stroh Center is a 5,000 seat arena, not an 8,000 seat facility. Thus, that would push the Stroh Center figure to $11,520 per seat. I must say that the suits at BGSU do clearly understand the exponential values of having a first class arena. Here is a quote from the BGSU website:"First impressions mean a lot - and the Stroh Center will be a great first impression of BGSU for many people," Christopher said. "From campus tours, concerts or games, nearly 500,000 people will use the arena each year. The Stroh Center will provide a terrific front porch for Bowling Green." Fortunately, this truth is not lost on our leaders. The Info is proof positive of that!

[g-mann17]

Thanks for the post! I found it very interesting. Where did you get the $7200 per seat cost estimate? Is that an industry standard?

I made my own factor. Based on Stroh Arena (BGSU proposed facility) and some comparisons with Value City and Wolstein Center.Stroh will be built in the near future at a cost of $57.6 million. It's an 8000 seat arena. Hence $7200.It seemed accurate since Value City arena was built in 1998(give or take) at a cost of $115 Million. It is a 19000 seat arena ($6060/seat). Wolstein was built in the mid to late 80's for a cost of 55 million holds 13000 ($4230/seat).I figured my $7200 would be a pretty good estimate based on modern construction costs and inflation. (and item costing $4230 in 1987 would cost $7625 as of 2007.)

Brilliant! Doing that simple and seemingly obvious formulation never crossed my mind! I did find one mistake in your numbers though. According to BGSU's website, the Stroh Center is a 5,000 seat arena, not an 8,000 seat facility. Thus, that would push the Stroh Center figure to $11,520 per seat. I must say that the suits at BGSU do clearly understand the exponential values of having a first class arena. Here is a quote from the BGSU website:"First impressions mean a lot - and the Stroh Center will be a great first impression of BGSU for many people," Christopher said. "From campus tours, concerts or games, nearly 500,000 people will use the arena each year. The Stroh Center will provide a terrific front porch for Bowling Green." Fortunately, this truth is not lost on our leaders. The Info is proof positive of that!

You are correct, I should have said Stroh Arena will cost 36 million and seat 5000. (still $7200/seat).Stroh Arena

[Captain Kangaroo]

I like everyone's perspective on this topic. My 2-cents:I disagree with entirely the phrase "We can't fill the arena we have, so why build another one?"The JAR sucks. As a middle-aged guy who flew back and forth to Portland last week, then to Baltimore and back afterward, I can attest to the fact that sitting on wooden bleachers sucks for your vertebrae. And your butt. And those seats are pretty much all that's available at the JAR. The upper and lower chairbacks, while not fully attended, are mostly sold. Sitting in the upper corners of the JAR, under one of those french fry heat lamps, ain't a party. I think if Joe Akron has his choice, he's sitting at home listening to Steve French rather than heading to the campus. Regardless of the team's quality.Whether it is a new arena, or renovation of the existing arena, we need improved seating. You aren't going to entertain a client, or impress anyone, by getting them a GA ticket to sit on wood bleachers and watch Canisius. On the topic of entertaining - The Tommy Evans Lounge blows. If you want to attract decent donors, businesses,etc. you need a loge-like setting where people can entertain. And, where they can actually watch the game if they prefer. I've been to 4-H competitions that were swankier than Tommy Evans.Concessions? Good grief... Small wonder the food lines are as long as they are when every register attendant has to use a calculator to add $3.00 + $2.00. Everything about the concession area would need to improve to reach even 3rd rate status. "Hall of Champions?" Hey...ZipsWatcher's always talking about all these NCAA championships we've won. Where are the trophies? Where is the history? K.e.n.t.'s crappy arena has all that stuff on display. We have a handful of individual photos.Running player and game stats available? Don't get me started on the video system. For some reason 3-for-17 equated to 50% shooting all year?We'll draw more in 2009-10 than 2008-9. Probably by several hundred/game. But if anyone is waiting for 5k/game before we can justify a new arena...it ain't gonna happen. Thankfully the folks responsible for making such facility decisions seem to have more vision that that. I just wish they had more cash.

[zen]

...and I can say, as sad as this seems, in those not-so-common times when I actually see a movie in the theater these days, I try to choose a newer Regal Cinema over the other older places because the Regals have comfortable seats, with a tad more space, and what they call "stadium seating" where the slope means you aren't starting at the back of someone's 80s hair do.Makes a difference to me, and I'm sure it does for other people.

[xu9697]

I like everyone's perspective on this topic. My 2-cents:I disagree with entirely the phrase "We can't fill the arena we have, so why build another one?"The JAR sucks. As a middle-aged guy who flew back and forth to Portland last week, then to Baltimore and back afterward, I can attest to the fact that sitting on wooden bleachers sucks for your vertebrae. And your butt. And those seats are pretty much all that's available at the JAR. The upper and lower chairbacks, while not fully attended, are mostly sold. Sitting in the upper corners of the JAR, under one of those french fry heat lamps, ain't a party. I think if Joe Akron has his choice, he's sitting at home listening to Steve French rather than heading to the campus. Regardless of the team's quality.Whether it is a new arena, or renovation of the existing arena, we need improved seating. You aren't going to entertain a client, or impress anyone, by getting them a GA ticket to sit on wood bleachers and watch Canisius. On the topic of entertaining - The Tommy Evans Lounge blows. If you want to attract decent donors, businesses,etc. you need a loge-like setting where people can entertain. And, where they can actually watch the game if they prefer. I've been to 4-H competitions that were swankier than Tommy Evans.Concessions? Good grief... Small wonder the food lines are as long as they are when every register attendant has to use a calculator to add $3.00 + $2.00. Everything about the concession area would need to improve to reach even 3rd rate status. "Hall of Champions?" Hey...ZipsWatcher's always talking about all these NCAA championships we've won. Where are the trophies? Where is the history? K.e.n.t.'s crappy arena has all that stuff on display. We have a handful of individual photos.Running player and game stats available? Don't get me started on the video system. For some reason 3-for-17 equated to 50% shooting all year?We'll draw more in 2009-10 than 2008-9. Probably by several hundred/game. But if anyone is waiting for 5k/game before we can justify a new arena...it ain't gonna happen. Thankfully the folks responsible for making such facility decisions seem to have more vision that that. I just wish they had more cash.

Ding, ding, ding..winner!!!Coming from the west side of Cleveland happens once a year to go to The Jar. It would be 3-4 times if I knew I had a nice comfy seat. And..if a new arena is built downtown, you can bet the wife and I will leave the kids with grandparents and stay at Sheraton Cuyahoga Falls or new hotel and take in the game, dinner, etc.

[Dave in Green]

Some of the problems mentioned about the JAR would not require huge expenditures to fix.Optimizing the concessions, for example, would take a minimal cash investment and a generous application of Customer Service 101 training. Chick-fil-a is a world leader in fast food customer satisfaction. Why not draw on their expertise as part of the package of selling their products at games?And if Zeke is coming to UA for the computer department, surely there is resident expertise to correct the error-prone computerized stat system.A new facility is not going to automatically correct fundamental problems that are not directly related to the infrastructure, but to the facility management folks whose job it is to see that all aspects of the operation are optimally run for maximum customer satisfaction.Optimizing the old facility should be on a parallel path with planning for a new facility, because many of the same things would apply at both facilities. If correcting the obvious shortcomings of the current facility doesn't result in getting closer to capacity crowds of 5,500, then it's probably optimistic to think that a new facility by itself would double attendance.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Some of the problems mentioned about the JAR would not require huge expenditures to fix.Optimizing the concessions, for example, would take a minimal cash investment and a generous application of Customer Service 101 training. Chick-fil-a is a world leader in fast food customer satisfaction. Why not draw on their expertise as part of the package of selling their products at games?And if Zeke is coming to UA for the computer department, surely there is resident expertise to correct the error-prone computerized stat system.A new facility is not going to automatically correct fundamental problems that are not directly related to the infrastructure, but to the facility management folks whose job it is to see that all aspects of the operation are optimally run for maximum customer satisfaction.Optimizing the old facility should be on a parallel path with planning for a new facility, because many of the same things would apply at both facilities. If correcting the obvious shortcomings of the current facility doesn't result in getting closer to capacity crowds of 5,500, then it's probably optimistic to think that a new facility by itself would double attendance.

TESTIFY, BROTHER 'GREEN!!!

[skip-zip]

A few thoughts (wow..this topic has certainly drawn plenty of interest).....I agree with all of the negatives about the JAR....All the bleacher seatsBad sight linesThe Evans lounge being not much of an exciting VIP experience.I've heard it all before.I only want to clarify the word NEED. Yes, we as fans "need" a new arena for better seating, to aid recruiting, to entertain guests, etc. etc. But I think the reality is that with a 25 year old facility, NEED will have to equate to other things like "we can't maintain the building"....or....."we're running out of room" before the people who really make these decision will consider justifying the expense. I just can't see any other factors that will foster any sense of urgency that would make this happen anytime soon. Let me share one more thing.....even when I was a student during the early to mid part of the 80s (yes, the beginning of the JAR Arena days) we complained about the things it lacked. And there has been improvements over the years, most notably the addition of the chair-back seats in upper reserve. And I really think all that we can hope for right now is that our administration can continue to make such upgrades.

[ZachTheZip]

Most of the things we complain about have nothing to do with the JAR as a physical building. It's not old and non-functional like Memorial Hall. Two of the biggest problems that I am aware of (I don't know too much about the locker rooms or the athletic offices) are the sight lines and the bleachers, and both of those could be fixed by installing chair-back seats on both sides of the upper deck. I think that we could leave the upper end seating where the students sit as bleachers to save some of the cost and also to define an actual "student section" instead of having them spread around general admission.The majority of the problems that we tend to complain about are not the result of the JAR's shortcomings. The concessions are largely unoptimized and remind me of high school games I attended in the 90s. They need to install at least one cash register per window, and OPEN UP MORE WINDOWS! They did catch on later in the season when they opened up the third window run by that guy who wears a tie all the time (maybe a manager? He was better at customer service, too), but it was clear that he was working out of a storage room. I'm not sure what people want out of the Tommy Evans lounge, unless you would propose removing some bleachers and extending it out to arena, and then building luxury suites right above it. It could be like a restaurant with a view to the game. The only problem would be that we would lose quite a bit of attendance capacity, but obviously we don't need it and if it fills up quicker the push for a new arena happens quicker as well.The fireworks during the starting lineup are nice, but please open some windows to let the sulfur fumes escape. I guarantee that everyone in the building has a mild headache by halftime because of that.The problems with the stat boards? I have no idea where these people learned math, but I could do a better job with a pocket calculator and filling the stats in manually. Shooting 3 of 17 is NOT 50%.That's really all I can think of for the athletic facility side of the JAR. Having classes in the dungeon below the north bleachers is a different issue altogether.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Most of the things we complain about have nothing to do with the JAR as a physical building.

Numerically speaking, you are correct. But if you were to create a pie chart listing all the JAR shortcomings from a critical point of view, 90+% of the chart would be related to the physical structure and layout.On a scale of 1 - 10, the structure, layout, amenities, "things that trip a recruit's trigger and get him to choose UA over a BCS school with regularity"...all that stuff is horrible.It is a bad Division 1 basketball arena.

[skip-zip]

Just to add a little bit to the "we have a glorified high school gym" frustration, here's a little bit more to get you guys fired up...Back in "my time", when we were playing in the OVC, we used to compare ourselves a lot to Middle Tennessee (who now plays in the Sun Belt). Not only athletically, but in terms of facilities. They had (and still have) a basketball arena that has so much that we want.....1) The seating arrangement is a little more "rounded", which gives you a good view of the game without straining your neck.2) Chair-back seats.3) It seats 11,0004) It was built in 1973!!!!Just take a look at their athletic website, and there's a great picture under the "facilities" link. I know..something like this would be very nice. I just don't see something like this happening for us when we built something like we did only 25 years ago.