The last word on Lee Owens vs. JD Brookhart

[InTheZone]

Since CK so graciously offered to give me the last word on a debate that was had numerous times over the last 6 years, I'm going to use an entire thread to put it to bed. All throughout the JD Brookhart era, I repeatedly stated what I believed to be a fact: Lee Owens did not take us where many of us hoped we would go, but given what he was working with in terms of facilities and administrative support, he was a miracle worker here. He was both a superior recruiter and a superior coach to JD Brookhart, and a mistake was made in 2003 when he was fired coming off a 7-5 (5-3) season. We would be a lot better off in 2010 had Owens been given another year or two to turn the corner with the facilities that HE had fought for in his 9 years as head coach. Let's look at the facts, comparing Owens last 6 years to Brookhart's 6 years.1998-2003 LEE OWENSSituation: Worst facilities in D1 without question. No on campus facilities whatsoever. Practice facilities consisted of two poorly mowed grass fields seven miles from campus. Players would find their own ride to the Rubber Bowl, dress in the stadium locker room, and then drive their cars down to the fields. If you didn't have a car or there was no room to hitch a ride, you made the half mile walk in full pads. On campus weightroom was atrocious, with no locker room facilities and no laundry service. Games played in same crumbling off campus stadium practice was held in. Meeting rooms consisted of JAR classrooms. Oftentimes, players and coaches would be forced to wander around campus looking or open classrooms because academic classes were beng held. Little support from administration. Campus was in the middle of a run down city with old crumbling buildings, streets running through campus, and little to no "campus" feel. Competed in a MAC conference that was at the height of its national success, with multiple top 25 rankings and many future NFL starting quarterbacks competing.2004-2009 JD BROOKHART Situation: Walked into newly built indoor practice facility, one of the best indoor facilities in the nation, BCS schools included, which also included a supurb a new weight training facility and sports medicine area. New outdoor on campus practice facility as well. Sparkling new coaches offices and meeting rooms included, Consolidating all football operations to one spot. Leather couches and flat screen tvs laid in locker room, creating a "player's lounge" type feel. New administration offered unwavering support. Campus completely remodeled, streets closed off, and trees planted. Downtown Akron revitalized. Old buildings on campus torn down, with a new student union complete with resturants, banquet areas, and bowling ally built, one of the finest in the nation. New REC Center built, also one of the finest in the nation. Campus went from being one of the ugliest and most depressing in the country to one of the best, all in a very short period of time. New Stadium plans finalized at the beginning of era and built at the end, giving this coaching staff an unbelievable recruiting tool on top of everything else that his predecessors could never enjoy. Competed in a MAC conference that could almost undeniably be described, especially at the end of his tenure, as the worst conference in the country. RESULTS:RECRUITING: NFL Players recruited (who played a down in the NFL, not counting transfers)LEE OWENS (last 6 years):Chase BlackburnZac DerrCharlie FryeDomenik HixonLouis MackeyRyan MeyersJamie ReaderJake SchifinoDwight SmithTotal: 9JD BROOKHART (6 years)NONETotal: 0WINNER: OWENS- Despite the unbelievable advantages enjoyed by Brookhart, and an insistance by some on Zipsnation that he was so much better of a recruiter than his predecessor, when you look at the facts, its not even close. Lee Owens recruited 9 certified NFL players in his last 6 years. JD Brookhart never recruited ONE. And sure Cap, I'll wait and see how many current Zips that are Brookhart's recruits end up in the NFL, but if you think we have 9 NFL players on this football team you're smoking something I want a hit of.RECORD:Lee Owens (last 6 years)- 32-36 .471JD Brookhart (6 years)- 30-41 .423WINNER: OWENS- Again despite Brookhart's advantages in EVERYTHING, Owens comes out on top.Conclusion: I don't think any rational person could argue against those kinds of facts (and if anything in the above isn't a fact, please let me know). Lee Owens was a better coach than JD Brookhart. Lee Owens was a better recruiter than JD Brookhart. Lee Owens ran this program better than JD Brookhart. We would've been much better off had Lee Owens never been fired. What does all this mean now?? Nothing really. Neither coach really accomplished anything great. We're all unified in praying to God that Ianello can go far and above anything either of these guys even thought about doing. But after all these years of arguing, it sure does feel good, in the end, to be shown to have been right all along . Can't fault a guy for taking a moment to say "I told you so." Consider the stick we've been beating this dead horse with officially broken. Carry on.

[zippyrifle32]

Who cares now? They're both gone.

[Captain Kangaroo]

(and if anything in the above isn't a fact, please let me know).

I know I promised you the last word, but since you said "please" -* I can't recall Zac Derr being on anyone's September NFL roster.* Jamie Reader was recruited by Faust, not Owens.That's all I'll offer. I'm a man of my word. And - I will surely share my weed with you.

[GP1]

Neither one of these guys recruited the quality of player Faust did in his first five years. While neither Lyons or Buddenberg were Faust recruits, each will say if it wasn't for the NFL quality coaches Faust brought in they would have never made the NFL (if NFL players are the measurement of success...I doubt that).Faust had it far worse in his first five years than Owens in terms of school reputation, conference, facilities, financial support, etc. You'll never hear anyone from that era cry about that.Since we are talking NFL, Faust brought in Vic Green and JT. Let's face it, every NFL guy Owens or JD brought in is/was easily replaceable on any NFL team they played on. How soon we all forget how much better the Browns were immediately after they cut Frye. Owens produced marginal NFL players and zero superstars.Green was one of the key players on the Jets. Green started in the NFL for almost his entire career and had a ten year career. This Faust recruit is the second best Zip in history behind the Faust recruit next.Do I need to get into the Hall of Fame career of Taylor? I'm sorry, the first ballot HOF career of Taylor. While he wasn't recruited in the first five years of Faust, he was the greatest Zip ever.I guess in some small thinking way, NFL players are a measurement of success, but what about the giant pile of crap Owens recruited around those giants of the NFL he brought in? If you put all of the Owens NFL players on one team, you would almost one half of a very average college team.I think Faust also had the best season winning percentage in his first five years as well 7-3-1. Pretty good if you ask me. Especially considering the state of ficilities, financial support, etc. the program had in his era.The one thing ITZ conveniently leaves out it is Brookhart was 1-0 in MAC Championship games. He was also 1-0 in a game that mattered to go to the MAC Championship. Owens can brag he never lost a MAC Championship with his 0-0 record in them.Owens was a choke artist and produced a bunch of crybaby choke artists around him. The more I hear them cry, the more disgusted I become by them. Guys who played for Faust never cried about facilities, reputation, lack of conference, zero academic help, financial support, etc. Everyone just played. While some wound up in jail (two who wound up on jail were certain NFL players in Frowner and Clark), there were players much better than what we saw in either the Owens or JD eras.In a measurement of the tallest midgets, I think Faust comes out on top...at least in the first five years. Amazing what history teaches us. In fact, what does this trend teach us? Maybe the trend is a declining quality of coach since the start of the D-1A era. We'll see how Coach I does.

[GoZips]

Well, the deciders learned something along the way.Faust was a Notre Dame reject and he had mediocre results with terrible facilities and sub zerocommunity support due to the angst caused by disgruntled Jim Dennison supporters.So, the deciders tried a new tack ... bring in a coach with zero big time experience. He failed.Actually, given the several well taken points by INZ, he had mediocre success. Truth is ... hadOwens actually installed and used a pass rush, he would still be the head coach, probably witha long term winning record. But, alas, the concept of a pass rush escaped him.Again the deciders realized that they almost had it figured out. They sacked the nearly successfulcoach and installed a new coach whose only resume asset was a hot looking babe wife. He failed.So, learning from this, the deciders have now installed another in experienced coach who gladhands with the best of them. But, he has one redeeming quality. He is from Notre Dame.Hey, isn't this where we came in?

[GP1]

Faust was a Notre Dame reject and he had mediocre results with terrible facilities and sub zerocommunity support due to the angst caused by disgruntled Jim Dennison supporters.

I've never believed in the theory that fans were disgruntled by Dennison getting fired. In fact, there was a good bit of energy about Faust being hired. Faust's first year they had a great crowd at Acme-Zip and a good Thursday night crowd for the MSU game on ESPN. My freshman year we had the fourth largest crowd to see the Zips play in the Acme-Zip game. The evidence just isn't there. Crowds did get smaller, but that was more of a result of losing than disgruntled Dennison fans.When UofA hired Faust, they had no clue how to support a D-1A football program. The weight room was a double sized classroom in the basement of the JAR for the first two years. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Faust, he was at Notre Dame and knew what it took to succeed at a high level. Never once did he complain about the horrible circumstances he was in at UofA. Nor did his coaches or players. Faust never once complained about Dennison being his boss, which was a terrible situation in itself because of the circumstances of Dennison being let go and Dennison having no clue as to how to run a D-1A program. I good poster on this board always said it was "Bush Leage all the way". Believe me, it was and nobody complained.If you look at what Faust had to work with his first 5 years, it was absolutely horrible and the guy did a pretty good job given the circumstances. I'll take the Faust years and the men who coached and played for him any day over the boys from the other eras.

[Dr Z]

ITZ, I liked your story on Lee buying the championship rings in the Chase thread. IMO both coaches were similar in the fact that they couldn't put a defense together to stop MAC teams.

[GP1]

But after all these years of arguing, it sure does feel good, in the end, to be shown to have been right all along . Can't fault a guy for taking a moment to say "I told you so."

Another interesting statistic is the W-L records. Isn't it the case that LO loaded up on I-AA teams (3) late in his tenure and JD didn't do the same thing? I think JD only played one in his six years so let's redo the math with a more realistic view.As we all know, any ooc game played in the LO era was a loss so let's count the Liberty and Cal Poly wins as L's since we surely would have lost to I-A teams. That would take the LO record from 32-36 to 30-38 (.441).Give JD two guaranteed wins instead of L's in his time, he goes from 30-41 to 32-39 (.450).If winning percentage, adjusted for scheduling, is a consideration, JD wins this category. Maybe you aren't so right after all....If LO was still the coach of UofA, the program would be in shambles, worse than it is now. LO had nothing in the tank at the end and the "talent" he took with him from UofA to Ashland couldn't even win a D-2 league.NFL players are not the indication of great recruiting. Overall talent is. The overall talent on this team is as good as it has been since the Zips went 7-3-1 under Faust. The Zips had a coach who put that talent in impossble situations. If Coach I and his staff are any good at all at coaching players on the field, this team should have a winning record in the MAC next year and compete for the championship of the East.

[Dr Z]

MAC Championships: LO = Zero : JD = 1BCS school victories: LO = Zero : JD = 1Bowl games: LO = Zero : JD = 1I don't care either way, I'm just hoping RI destroys these stats.

[zippy_ua_00]

MAC Championships: LO = Zero : JD = 1BCS school victories: LO = Zero : JD = 1Bowl games: LO = Zero : JD = 1I don't care either way, I'm just hoping RI destroys these stats.

JD actually had 2 BCS wins. NC State and the Cuse

[InTheZone]

Faust was a Notre Dame reject and he had mediocre results with terrible facilities and sub zerocommunity support due to the angst caused by disgruntled Jim Dennison supporters.

I've never believed in the theory that fans were disgruntled by Dennison getting fired. In fact, there was a good bit of energy about Faust being hired. Faust's first year they had a great crowd at Acme-Zip and a good Thursday night crowd for the MSU game on ESPN. My freshman year we had the fourth largest crowd to see the Zips play in the Acme-Zip game. The evidence just isn't there. Crowds did get smaller, but that was more of a result of losing than disgruntled Dennison fans.When UofA hired Faust, they had no clue how to support a D-1A football program. The weight room was a double sized classroom in the basement of the JAR for the first two years. Regardless of what anyone thinks about Faust, he was at Notre Dame and knew what it took to succeed at a high level. Never once did he complain about the horrible circumstances he was in at UofA. Nor did his coaches or players. Faust never once complained about Dennison being his boss, which was a terrible situation in itself because of the circumstances of Dennison being let go and Dennison having no clue as to how to run a D-1A program. I good poster on this board always said it was "Bush Leage all the way". Believe me, it was and nobody complained.If you look at what Faust had to work with his first 5 years, it was absolutely horrible and the guy did a pretty good job given the circumstances. I'll take the Faust years and the men who coached and played for him any day over the boys from the other eras.

The "talent" on Faust teams is easily explainable... He had a 17 percent graduation rate. Because of men like Faust, the NCAA passed standards and regulations for graduation rates. If LO or JD recruited with th same philosophy as Faust under the new regulations, the program would've recieve the death penalty by now. If Faust had actually recruited players who could graduate and stay out of jail, he would've been an even bigger failure than he was, and probably wouldn't have won a game in his last few years, because the guy couldn't coach a lick. Anyone can recruit a bunch of guys who have no chance whatsoever of graduating and have a lot of "talent" on the team. I believe a coach who once told me that there is an inverse correlation in the general population between intelligence and athletic ability. Faust took a bunch of guys he knew would never graduate and ran the program into the ground. LO had a serious mess to clean up when he arrived from such practices. I believe the graduation rate at the end of the Owens era was somewhere between 85-90 percent.

[InTheZone]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters. Once spring ball begins, none of this matters. All the focus is on RI and hopefully he can deliver a helluva lot more than any of the 3 1-A predecessors.

[Captain Kangaroo]

The "talent" on Faust teams is easily explainable... He had a 17 percent graduation rate.

That 17% was for a single season.Owens had a 70% graduation rate. Once. He also had several under 50%.Here (click me) is an Owens class with a 36% graduation rate. Do you define Owens' graduation rates by that single class?Owens started out recruiting kids with average talent, and good grades. That was to offset the poor graduation rates and player retention of the preceding Faust years. Owens then realized he was never going to win a championship with this talent, so he began taking academic risks. And the retention/graduation rates dropped.Brookhart went balls-out with at-risk kids his first couple seasons and failed big time. Then he went after a better caliber of student athlete...but it was too late. Blowing two consecutive recruiting classes was too much to overcome.

[GP1]

The "talent" on Faust teams is easily explainable... He had a 17 percent graduation rate.

That 17% was for a single season.

I thought the 17% number seemed strange. I know too many guys who graduated for it to be true.Once again, Faust reigns as the tallest midget. You guys have no idea how strange it is to type those words or even to take the thought serioiusly.Speaking of Faust, did anyone see the absolutely great 30-30 on ESPN about Miami FL football? It's amazing to me Faust actually coached on the same field against J. Johnson. That 30-30 was great in so many ways. Miami really changed college football in many good and bad ways.My favorite part was when the media complained about Miami destroying other teams and they never once complained when Oklahoma, Texas, Notre Dame were beating teams 50-0.

[GP1]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters.

It's not as much of a debate or conversation as some of us taking one of our fellow alumns (you), lovingly putting our arms around you and saying, "It's ok that you guys sucked. You don't have to make up fiction about what really happed during the Owens years. We still love you anyhow."

[johnnyzip84]

The "talent" on Faust teams is easily explainable... He had a 17 percent graduation rate.

That 17% was for a single season.

I thought the 17% number seemed strange. I know too many guys who graduated for it to be true.Once again, Faust reigns as the tallest midget. You guys have no idea how strange it is to type those words or even to take the thought serioiusly.Speaking of Faust, did anyone see the absolutely great 30-30 on ESPN about Miami FL football? It's amazing to me Faust actually coached on the same field against J. Johnson. That 30-30 was great in so many ways. Miami really changed college football in many good and bad ways.My favorite part was when the media complained about Miami destroying other teams and they never once complained when Oklahoma, Texas, Notre Dame were beating teams 50-0.

I watched this program and I agree it was excellent. I have always used the U of Miami as the great example of how it is POSSIBLE for a college football program's fortunes to change dramatically over a relatively short time period. Before Howard became the coach, UM was no better (arguably worse) than San Diego State. They came REALLY close to simply dropping football, just like their in-state brothers at the University of Tampa (John Matuszak played there, the Spartans beat K.E.N.T. in the '72 Tangerine Bowl after their only MAC championship) did. While I enjoyed the point you mentioned (the double standard applied to the "urban" school), my favorite part was where it was claimed (hard to know how accurate this is) that the Miami Dolphins' players used to want to "hang" with the Hurricanes because the latter apparently had more "cred" in the local community.

[GP1]

I have always used the U of Miami as the great example of how it is POSSIBLE for a college football program's fortunes to change dramatically over a relatively short time period. Before Howard became the coach, UM was no better (arguably worse) than San Diego State.

It all starts with talent. Miami had a ton of talent around the campus, they picked up the talent and put it to good use. Bernis Kosar had a lot to do with it as well. Bernie was a smart guy who could spread the field out and run a pro style offense. The story of the Cotton Bowl win against Texas was funny as well. They hated the city of Dallas, they hated the people of Texas and they set out to humiliate them on national TV....and they did. One Miami player told his teammates before the opening kickoff he was going to knock out the return man....and he did. Miami had 195 yards of penalties and still destroyed Texas.The interviews with Coach Johnson were great as well. He grew up dirt poor like a lot of the kids at Miami and they all related to each other. One guy said he coached with his middle finger in the air. College football seems so phony today compared to what it was then. The players hate each other, but they have to pretend they don't. The players are wildly excited when they do something good, but they can't celebrate.

[johnnyzip84]

I have always used the U of Miami as the great example of how it is POSSIBLE for a college football program's fortunes to change dramatically over a relatively short time period. Before Howard became the coach, UM was no better (arguably worse) than San Diego State.

It all starts with talent. Miami had a ton of talent around the campus, they picked up the talent and put it to good use. Bernis Kosar had a lot to do with it as well. Bernie was a smart guy who could spread the field out and run a pro style offense. The story of the Cotton Bowl win against Texas was funny as well. They hated the city of Dallas, they hated the people of Texas and they set out to humiliate them on national TV....and they did. One Miami player told his teammates before the opening kickoff he was going to knock out the return man....and he did. Miami had 195 yards of penalties and still destroyed Texas.The interviews with Coach Johnson were great as well. He grew up dirt poor like a lot of the kids at Miami and they all related to each other. One guy said he coached with his middle finger in the air. College football seems so phony today compared to what it was then. The players hate each other, but they have to pretend they don't. The players are wildly excited when they do something good, but they can't celebrate.

I liked it when they compared then President of UM Edward "Tad" Foote to this guy

[InTheZone]

The "talent" on Faust teams is easily explainable... He had a 17 percent graduation rate.

That 17% was for a single season.Owens had a 70% graduation rate. Once. He also had several under 50%.Here (click me) is an Owens class with a 36% graduation rate. Do you define Owens' graduation rates by that single class?Owens started out recruiting kids with average talent, and good grades. That was to offset the poor graduation rates and player retention of the preceding Faust years. Owens then realized he was never going to win a championship with this talent, so he began taking academic risks. And the retention/graduation rates dropped.Brookhart went balls-out with at-risk kids his first couple seasons and failed big time. Then he went after a better caliber of student athlete...but it was too late. Blowing two consecutive recruiting classes was too much to overcome.

That's some very fuzzy math on how you counted that "36 percent" graduation rate lol. That is not how the NCAA does it, or anything close to it I believe. I'm not sure we can access the actual official numbers from that far back, but I'd love if someone could.Talk to any professor on campus who was there through the Faust and Owens years. I heard numerous professors during my time at UA, when they found out I was a player, tell me how impressed they'd been with the academic improvement of the football team since Owens arrived. It was night and day.

[InTheZone]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters.

It's not as much of a debate or conversation as some of us taking one of our fellow alumns (you), lovingly putting our arms around you and saying, "It's ok that you guys sucked. You don't have to make up fiction about what really happed during the Owens years. We still love you anyhow."

This coming from a Faust guy??? The entire era you were involved in was nothing but a black mark and embarrassment to this University on all accords. My coach went out on a 7-5 record, in the upper echelon of the MAC at its height, and with enough talent left on the team for his successor to go win a championship. Your coach went out with one win, a bunch of disgraceful thugs populating the team, and a gigantic mess for his successor to clean up. Faust and his teams are an embarrassment that most involved in UA athletics would like to forget ever happened.In the 4 years that I played, we won 17 MAC games. All that impressive? No. Best in school history? Yes. So don't come at me talking about how "you guys sucked" when my teams won more MAC games than any class in your embarrassment of an era even thought about.

[GP1]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters.

It's not as much of a debate or conversation as some of us taking one of our fellow alumns (you), lovingly putting our arms around you and saying, "It's ok that you guys sucked. You don't have to make up fiction about what really happed during the Owens years. We still love you anyhow."

This coming from a Faust guy??? The entire era you were involved in was nothing but a black mark and embarrassment to this University on all accords. My coach went out on a 7-5 record, in the upper echelon of the MAC at its height, and with enough talent left on the team for his successor to go win a championship. Your coach went out with one win, a bunch of disgraceful thugs populating the team, and a gigantic mess for his successor to clean up. Faust and his teams are an embarrassment that most involved in UA athletics would like to forget ever happened.In the 4 years that I played, we won 17 MAC games. All that impressive? No. Best in school history? Yes. So don't come at me talking about how "you guys sucked" when my teams won more MAC games than any class in your embarrassment of an era even thought about.

7-5 with two I-AA teams. How impressive.... You guys sucked. I could sit here and cry and bitch and moan about how bad we had it with our facilities, weight room in the jar, zero academic support, etc., but it would just make me look like a whining bitch....like, well, you know.

[GP1]

Talk to any professor on campus who was there through the Faust and Owens years. I heard numerous professors during my time at UA, when they found out I was a player, tell me how impressed they'd been with the academic improvement of the football team since Owens arrived. It was night and day.

Wow, you guys were so important.

[g-mann17]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters.

It's not as much of a debate or conversation as some of us taking one of our fellow alumns (you), lovingly putting our arms around you and saying, "It's ok that you guys sucked. You don't have to make up fiction about what really happed during the Owens years. We still love you anyhow."

This coming from a Faust guy??? The entire era you were involved in was nothing but a black mark and embarrassment to this University on all accords. My coach went out on a 7-5 record, in the upper echelon of the MAC at its height, and with enough talent left on the team for his successor to go win a championship. Your coach went out with one win, a bunch of disgraceful thugs populating the team, and a gigantic mess for his successor to clean up. Faust and his teams are an embarrassment that most involved in UA athletics would like to forget ever happened.In the 4 years that I played, we won 17 MAC games. All that impressive? No. Best in school history? Yes. So don't come at me talking about how "you guys sucked" when my teams won more MAC games than any class in your embarrassment of an era even thought about.

7-5 with two I-AA teams. How impressive.... You guys sucked. I could sit here and cry and bitch and moan about how bad we had it with our facilities, weight room in the jar, zero academic support, etc., but it would just make me look like a whining bitch....like, well, you know.

Not 100% sure but as I recall Owens had the same shit facilities but the weight room had been moved into Ocasek. In fact at the camp I attended in 92 the Varsity weight room was in Ocasek. And as far as academic support that didn't improve until we had better AD's. Had nothing to do with coaches.But I do get your mocking point. I just want to see you two keep going at it.

[InTheZone]

This all just makes for good offseason conversation btw. When there's nothing going on with Zips football currently in this lag time between recruiting and spring ball, we might as well talk about history and debate such matters.

It's not as much of a debate or conversation as some of us taking one of our fellow alumns (you), lovingly putting our arms around you and saying, "It's ok that you guys sucked. You don't have to make up fiction about what really happed during the Owens years. We still love you anyhow."

This coming from a Faust guy??? The entire era you were involved in was nothing but a black mark and embarrassment to this University on all accords. My coach went out on a 7-5 record, in the upper echelon of the MAC at its height, and with enough talent left on the team for his successor to go win a championship. Your coach went out with one win, a bunch of disgraceful thugs populating the team, and a gigantic mess for his successor to clean up. Faust and his teams are an embarrassment that most involved in UA athletics would like to forget ever happened.In the 4 years that I played, we won 17 MAC games. All that impressive? No. Best in school history? Yes. So don't come at me talking about how "you guys sucked" when my teams won more MAC games than any class in your embarrassment of an era even thought about.

7-5 with two I-AA teams. How impressive.... You guys sucked. I could sit here and cry and bitch and moan about how bad we had it with our facilities, weight room in the jar, zero academic support, etc., but it would just make me look like a whining bitch....like, well, you know.

I can't believe I'm getting told my teams sucked from a Faust guy!!! You want to talk about beating 2 1-AA teams?? One of Faust's best years, at 6-4-1, He played not one, not two, but FOUR 1-AA teams, and TIED one of them!!! LOL. In Faust's career, he lost 9 times to 1-AA schools!!!!!!You want to say how impressive that Owens went out winning 5 1-AA games?? Faust went out winning ONE against a winless team LOL.You want to say my teams sucked when we won 17 conference games in my four years, the best class in our 1-A history?? What years did you play big boy?? You make yourself look dumber and dumber with every post. I'm not on here claiming that we were giant killers when I played, but we were light years ahead of any joke of a team in Geriatric Gerry's era, that's for damn sure. Quit now, please, for your own sake. I can't let you humiliate yourself any longer.

[RACER]

it's hard to evaluate era's.faust still has the 7-3-1 record team that no other coach can seem to match.while they did play some 1-aa schools they did not have a full contingent of players until his last few years either .they by far had the worst facilities of the three coaches.that team had enough talent to compete in the mac.would they win the mac in 2009? hard to say.ysu was prety good back then;so i don't consider them a 1-aa team.faust 7-3-1 team has some talent on the defense which i don't think akron has had in awhile.i don't think faust was the best coach of the three,but he had tone of the most talented teams in akron's history.if think a great game would be the jd mac champs versus faust's 7-3-1 team.that would be fun to see who the best team was.jd team had a great offense,and faust had some athletes on defense.