The first non-football event at Infocision

[InTheZone]

There's a difference between EARNING every penny he makes, and being WORTH every penny he makes. Worth it? Yes, for the reasons you've cited above. Earning it? No, as a player making that kind of money and with that kind of hype should win championships. Lebron isn't a leader of men, and doesn't have that same killer instinct and "it" factor that Jordan and Bird had, and that Kobe now has. When things get heated, players making that kind of money "earn" their check by stepping up and taking the game over. Lebron starts tossing up halfhazard shots, giving up turnovers, and basically completely folds, and we've seen that every year in the playoffs. So yes, he is "worth" his pay in terms of what he brings to the franchise and local economy financially, but up until this point in his career, he hasn't EARNED anything.

Also, Cleveland will sell out an arena or stadium for any winning team. Having Lebron James on the Cavs is not the only way to have a winning team. The Cavs have a solid core of players outside of Lebron, and if he leaves there are still many players out there in free agency this year to bring in for far cheaper and who may in fact improve the chemistry of the team, and may in fact be guys who are leaders, not simply talented ballers who always want the spotlight on them but then choke when the spotlight gets too bright. Lebron leaving is not necessarily the end of the Cavs success and thus the end of people showing up at Cavs games and buying Cavs merchandise.

Every mentions Lebron & Jordan, and the lack of championships. Jordan didn't win his first championship until he was almost 30. Jordan, Johnson, Bryant, Bird, Pierce & Thomas all had/have solid supporting casts. You take Lebron out, the Cavs have a 30 win team. He has never had a real supporting cast. I also would love to see Lebron playing under the "Jordan" rules. No Zone defenses at all, can start running from the wing and not get called for traveling.

Also remember, the league royally sucked when Jordan was playing.

Saying Lebron has no supporting cast is an absolute JOKE and something the Lebron cockriders of Cleveland go to by default when you point out the fact that the guy can't get the job done in primetime. Lebron has two other all-star caliber players with him in Mo and Jamieson. He has one of the deepest benches in the NBA. What a ridiculous statement. Lebron has twice as much around him right now than Jordan had in 4 out of 6 of his championships. Jordan won his first championship in his sixth season, when he finally got SOME help around him (the playoff teams before 90 that he led to similar success that the Cavs have had recently had NO TALENT WHATSOEVER). Lebron is now entering his 8th season and has done nothing but choke year after year after year. He's a Hall of Fame caliber player, just not one of the top 5 players of all time, and not a leader.

[InTheZone]

There's a difference between EARNING every penny he makes, and being WORTH every penny he makes. Worth it? Yes, for the reasons you've cited above. Earning it? No, as a player making that kind of money and with that kind of hype should win championships. Lebron isn't a leader of men, and doesn't have that same killer instinct and "it" factor that Jordan and Bird had, and that Kobe now has. When things get heated, players making that kind of money "earn" their check by stepping up and taking the game over. Lebron starts tossing up halfhazard shots, giving up turnovers, and basically completely folds, and we've seen that every year in the playoffs. So yes, he is "worth" his pay in terms of what he brings to the franchise and local economy financially, but up until this point in his career, he hasn't EARNED anything.

Also, Cleveland will sell out an arena or stadium for any winning team. Having Lebron James on the Cavs is not the only way to have a winning team. The Cavs have a solid core of players outside of Lebron, and if he leaves there are still many players out there in free agency this year to bring in for far cheaper and who may in fact improve the chemistry of the team, and may in fact be guys who are leaders, not simply talented ballers who always want the spotlight on them but then choke when the spotlight gets too bright. Lebron leaving is not necessarily the end of the Cavs success and thus the end of people showing up at Cavs games and buying Cavs merchandise.

It's an entertainment business. He HAS earned everything he's got. He sells more tickets, more shoes, more sweatbands, more T-shirts. Sponsors pay more dollars when a network shows his game. The Cavs are worth at least ten times as much with him on the roster. He makes other people rich, he should get his too.

When Barbara Streisand signs at a concert and the tickets are over $200 each, she EARNED every penny of what she makes. It doesn't matter whether she is at her best, or the band wins a grammy. Her presence makes other people rich, she should get hers too.

By your thinking, Darko Miličić should be in the hall of fame instead of Karl Malone. Shandon Anderson should replace Charles Barkley. They got the rings...

Speaking of Darko, don't forget the fact that without LeBron, there is no NBA basketball in Cleveland.

Idiotic statements all the way around. Again, see the difference between being WORTH something (ie, having the capability to bring in profits) and EARNING something (ie, having your PERFORMANCE JUSTIFY YOUR WAGES)

Your analogy with Darko and Shandon are idiotic because those guys were not the supposed "star" players of their championship teams nor their leaders. Stars are judged by their ability to lift their team to victory, their ability to get it done in primetime. That's the difference between the Karl Malones and Charles Barkelys in comparison to the Magics, Birds, Jordans, Chamberlin's, etc. Lebron James is on Malone and Barkley's level. The only thing Cleveland is "Witness" to is a player with a great skill set who doesn't have the intangibles to be a truely great player, only a player who puts up great numbers but chokes when the pressure is on.

[Dr Z]

I hope somebody is smart enough to print out magnet (football) schedules to hand out to everybody.

Maybe they will have the kickoff times by then.

[Z.I.P.]

Moving to Bath Township is leaving Akron? Good heavens, I've been misleading my out-of-state friends by telling them I live in Akron when I actually live in Green. I thought it was like horseshoes, where being close counts. I'll be sure to come clean and tell them all that I've left Akron.

Yeah, yeah, yeah...he's moved up in income bracket, but also his workplace is Downtown Cleveland, rather than the title of that old Pretenders' song.

[GP1]

The Cavs play 41 home games (in a 20,000 seat arena) plus playoffs. Wouldn't they be better off f the Indians were good in lieu of the Cavs. The Indians play 80+ home games a year with 40,000 seat arena.

I'm not buying that LeBron is a cash cow for NE Ohio.

LeBron is a cash cow for NE Ohio.

Without him, the Cavs are back to Brevin Knight, Shawn Kemp... and 4k people coming to downtown Cleveland on any given night. He's the difference between the downtown bars and hotels being packed for 45 - 50 nights per year, and them being at 20% occupancy.

If LeBron departs, downtown Cleveland will be a ghost town ... once again.

Turning around the Cavs took one guy. Turning around the Indians takes 12 guys. And the Indians are no where near close to having those 12 guys. The Indians are WAY closer to being the Pirates than the Yankees. Or the Twins for that matter.

Go Zips.

Fine, someone show me how much money he brings in and then prove to me that amount will go down to zero of he leaves. I know you are an engineer and it can be limiting at times, but this is a different kind of A + B = C. This LBJ argument you are making is 1+1=2. I look at it as C=10. There are a lot of ways to get to 10. 9+1, 8+2, 7+3, 6+4 or 5+5. The Cavs can win without LBJ.

ITZ is right. If LBJ is their only chance at success, then they need to fold the team because nobody knows how to create a winning team. I don't think LBJ is going to leave, but if he does, that's life. The Lakers won after Shaq and the Cavs can win after LBJ. Someone just needs to find a way to gather a good team with a good coach and win.

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I'll bring this around to the Zips since this is a Zips board. After 2004, all the hand wringers said, "What are we going to do without Charlie Frye? Woe to Zips fans." What happened in 2005? We won the league without Frye. The Cavs can win without LBJ, they just need to find a way to do it.

[ZachTheZip]

I think it would be better for Akron, not Cleveland, if he left to go somewhere else but kept strong ties to his hometown. As it is right now, it seems like Akron is viewed as part of suburban Cleveland, on par with Brooklyn Heights or Eastlake, in the context of LeBron. If he left, but kept returning to events in Akron but not so much in Cleveland, it helps to differentiate us from that economic disaster.

LeBron appears to understand this situation. His loyalty has been to Akron, not Cleveland, when he mentions his hometown to the press. What he thinks will help his city (and thus his childhood friends and family) more will play some part, however small it might actually be, in his decision.

[skip-zip]

I think it would be better for Akron, not Cleveland, if he left to go somewhere else but kept strong ties to his hometown. As it is right now, it seems like Akron is viewed as part of suburban Cleveland, on par with Brooklyn Heights or Eastlake, in the context of LeBron. If he left, but kept returning to events in Akron but not so much in Cleveland, it helps to differentiate us from that economic disaster.

LeBron appears to understand this situation. His loyalty has been to Akron, not Cleveland, when he mentions his hometown to the press. What he thinks will help his city (and thus his childhood friends and family) more will play some part, however small it might actually be, in his decision.

I see your point. I can think of numerous situations where someone is from somehwere in NE Ohio, or even Akron specificially, and they are claimed by Cleveland as their "hometown kid". I bet many people outside of our region think Cleveland is LeBron's hometown.

[Dr Z]

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I double dog dare you to sit and watch nine innings of an Indians game. Come back and post after.

The Lakers won after Shaq and the Cavs can win after LBJ.

Do the Cavs get Kobe?

[Captain Kangaroo]

1.) ITZ is right. If LBJ is their only chance at success, then they need to fold the team because nobody knows how to create a winning team.

2.) If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

3.) After 2004, all the hand wringers said, "What are we going to do without Charlie Frye? Woe to Zips fans." What happened in 2005? We won the league without Frye.

4.) The Cavs can win without LBJ, they just need to find a way to do it.

Response #1: If the Cavs lose LeBron, they are toast. He was a once-in-a-lifetime, miracle draft pick that staved off the inevitable. There would be an Oklahoma City Cavaliers if it weren't for LeBron.

Response #2: The Indians can't win. They traded away all their great players for a sack of beans and some Dollar General jewelery. Their run of being competitive is over. They don't have the personnel or the bankroll.

Response #3: Most Zips fans were pretty excited about Getsy in 2005.

Response #4: The Celtics needed to find a way to win after Bird. It took them 22 years to do it. And they are the Celtics. The Cavs are the Milwaukee Bucks, sans LeBron. Once he's gone, they are essentially a MAC basketball team.

I can't wait to watch South East Milwaukee State play the Zips in a couple years.

[Dave in Green]

If LeBron goes to one of the big-name teams and wins an NBA championship or two, he will be just like all the other big-name players who went to big-name teams and won an NBA championship or two. It will be expected.

The only way LeBron separates himself from all the other great NBA players in history is to lead a no-name, cursed franchise like the Cleveland Cavaliers to glory.

That's the difference between being a great player and being the greatest.

[cornbread]

I think it would be better for Akron, not Cleveland, if he left to go somewhere else but kept strong ties to his hometown. As it is right now, it seems like Akron is viewed as part of suburban Cleveland, on par with Brooklyn Heights or Eastlake, in the context of LeBron. If he left, but kept returning to events in Akron but not so much in Cleveland, it helps to differentiate us from that economic disaster.

LeBron appears to understand this situation. His loyalty has been to Akron, not Cleveland, when he mentions his hometown to the press. What he thinks will help his city (and thus his childhood friends and family) more will play some part, however small it might actually be, in his decision.

I see your point. I can think of numerous situations where someone is from somehwere in NE Ohio, or even Akron specificially, and they are claimed by Cleveland as their "hometown kid". I bet many people outside of our region think Cleveland is LeBron's hometown.

Family member was in Vegas, wearing Akron Zips gear and going to work out when he was asked about inside information pertaining to LeBron. Akron has been recognized.

[Dr Z]

Family member was in Vegas, wearing Akron Zips gear and going to work out when he was asked about inside information pertaining to LeBron. Akron has been recognized.

I agree, I hear them reference "Akron" many times on sports channels when they refer to LBJ's hometown. How many times have you heard LBJ say "I want to put Akron on the map"

[GP1]

1.) ITZ is right. If LBJ is their only chance at success, then they need to fold the team because nobody knows how to create a winning team.

2.) If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

3.) After 2004, all the hand wringers said, "What are we going to do without Charlie Frye? Woe to Zips fans." What happened in 2005? We won the league without Frye.

4.) The Cavs can win without LBJ, they just need to find a way to do it.

Response #1: If the Cavs lose LeBron, they are toast. He was a once-in-a-lifetime, miracle draft pick that staved off the inevitable. There would be an Oklahoma City Cavaliers if it weren't for LeBron.

Response #2: The Indians can't win. They traded away all their great players for a sack of beans and some Dollar General jewelery. Their run of being competitive is over. They don't have the personnel or the bankroll.

Response #3: Most Zips fans were pretty excited about Getsy in 2005.

Response #4: The Celtics needed to find a way to win after Bird. It took them 22 years to do it. And they are the Celtics. The Cavs are the Milwaukee Bucks, sans LeBron. Once he's gone, they are essentially a MAC basketball team.

I can't wait to watch South East Milwaukee State play the Zips in a couple years.

Response 1A: Then move the team today because at some point in the future they are going to be without LBJ.

Response 2A: Someone has to win the Indians division. Everyone can compete in that division even with Chicago. The Indians may not be good today, but they could be good in the future.

Response 3A: Especially the Great GP1.

Response 4A: Bias was Boston's ticket and he went the way of a drug overdose.

[GP1]

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I double dog dare you to sit and watch nine innings of an Indians game. Come back and post after.

I'm a Pirates fan. I could watch an Indians game standing on my head. It's all about conditioning and 15+ years of watching the Pirates has me in the best "watching bad baseball shape" I have ever been in. I fart in the general direction of this challenge.

[Spin]

Idiotic statements all the way around. Again, see the difference between being WORTH something (ie, having the capability to bring in profits) and EARNING something (ie, having your PERFORMANCE JUSTIFY YOUR WAGES)

It's business, you EARN based on what you bring in. I have more training than my partner, my rig can take more serious calls because I'm there. I EARN more than he does.

You sign LeBron, you sell more tickets, you sell more parking spaces, you sell more nachos. He earned his max contract. He's worth a lot more than that, but the CBA says what he gets. Aerosmith sold out every arena they played in about 6 years ago? They got $100,000 per night. They earned every penny of it, and made promoters rich. If 20,000 people are willing to pay $100 each to watch you scream, you earned what you got. If your scream is weak one night, your name still drew the fans. The money people don't give refunds for bad nights.

Your analogy with Darko and Shandon are idiotic because those guys were not the supposed "star" players of their championship teams nor their leaders. Stars are judged by their ability to lift their team to victory, their ability to get it done in primetime. That's the difference between the Karl Malones and Charles Barkelys in comparison to the Magics, Birds, Jordans, Chamberlin's, etc. Lebron James is on Malone and Barkley's level. The only thing Cleveland is "Witness" to is a player with a great skill set who doesn't have the intangibles to be a truely great player, only a player who puts up great numbers but chokes when the pressure is on.

No, according to your logic, Darko has EARNED more than LeBron because he has a ring. Never mind the fact that he did NOTHING for it, and LeBron was the only player doing EVERYTHING to try to get one.

If you knew the first thing about NBA basketball, you would know the real difference between LBJ/Charles/Mailman and Magic/Bird/Jordan is supporting cast. What did Michael do for Chicago before they got Pippen and Rodman? What did Kobe do for the Lakers after Shaq left and before Gasol arrived? What did the Celtics do in the regular season with Garnett out?

I agree LeBron choked. He choked on Jamison's bricks and Mo's disappearing acts and Brownie's complete lack of adjustments. Not to mention benching players right after they do a monster play. Or getting 3 fouls.

The supporting cast was not good enough. Ferry has been here five years, has made several trades and signings, and still hasn't figured out how to get a point guard here.

Roker couldn't coach his way out of a wet bag. And he lost the team.

LeBron choked his way to a triple double, huh? I'll have what you're smoking. If you get your way, the only choking you have to worry about next year is yourself when you see the Delonte West led Cavs...

[Dr Z]

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I double dog dare you to sit and watch nine innings of an Indians game. Come back and post after.

I'm a Pirates fan. I could watch an Indians game standing on my head. It's all about conditioning and 15+ years of watching the Pirates has me in the best "watching bad baseball shape" I have ever been in. I fart in the general direction of this challenge.

Get a tape of last nights game and watch it. It took the opposing pitcher 88 pitches to retire 9 innings of Indians batters. You'll get a real good idea of the type of "major league" talent that is on the team from top to bottom. You do have some conditioning being a Pirates fan, they are almost as bad as the Indians. If you have watched 3 full Pirates games this year I would be shocked! MLB is a joke. Wake me up after the strike.

[cornbread]

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I double dog dare you to sit and watch nine innings of an Indians game. Come back and post after.

I'm a Pirates fan. I could watch an Indians game standing on my head. It's all about conditioning and 15+ years of watching the Pirates has me in the best "watching bad baseball shape" I have ever been in. I fart in the general direction of this challenge.

Get a tape of last nights game and watch it. It took the opposing pitcher 88 pitches to retire 9 innings of Indians batters. You'll get a real good idea of the type of "major league" talent that is on the team from top to bottom. You do have some conditioning being a Pirates fan, they are almost as bad as the Indians. If you have watched 3 full Pirates games this year I would be shocked! MLB is a joke. Wake me up after the strike.

The sky is not falling.

But this team is bad. We have building blocks and players that should bounce back (eventually). Let me paint you a picture.

It is Late Summer 2012. The Tribe is a game back and baseball is exciting.

Pitching: Carmona is pitching like he was in 2010. Guys who were down on the farm a few years ago are filling out the rotation(Herrman, Hagadone, Carrasco, Rondon, White) and we got that veteran pitcher for cheap in the offseason (ala Byrd).

Infield: Asdrubal Cabrera is the real deal. The rest of the infield were minor leaguers just a few years ago. ( maybe Lou Marsen @ 3rd. Second will be Donald or Kipnis, first LaPorta or a free agent. Catcher will be Carlos "Second Coming" Santana.)

Outfield: Choo, Sizemore, Brantly, Crowe, LaPorta

Bullpen: Work in progress(just like in the rest of the league.)

To me, that seems like a team. Not the Yankees, but something that can put us in situations we need to be in. Educate yourself if you consider yourself a fan.

The core is there. Carmona, Cabrera, Choo, Sizemore, InsertNameHere, InsertNameHere, InsertNameHere We don't know who is going to step up. But the bottom line is that the Indians are the best run pro sports team in Cleveland. The Cavs got lucky with LeBron. You know about the Browns.

Some bad calls have caught up with the Tribe(Hafner, trades, etc) but they could have done a lot worse. How many times do you think they were close to trading Carmona for a prospect while he was struggling? Who would not have signed Pronk to a long term deal after that season he had?

[Dr Z]

The sky is not falling.

Your right. The sky has fallen. The Cliff Lee trade was the final straw for me. That indicated to me that the Indians organization was not serious about winning a world series anytime soon. So I am not willing to be a fan anytime soon. It made me lose interest in MLB and gain more interest in NHL, NBA and NASCAR. Baseball used to be my second favorite sport, now it's not even on my radar. I'll probably catch an Aeros game or two this summer and a Pirates game, but that's it. Like I said, wake me up after the strike.

PS If you think Choo plans on being in Cleveland long term, read this. Choo hired Scott Boras this year and Scott's favorite thing is to get his client to the free agent market. Choo has already turned down an extension.

[Spin]

Your right. The sky has fallen. The Cliff Lee trade was the final straw for me. That indicated to me that the Indians organization was not serious about winning a world series anytime soon. So I am not willing to be a fan anytime soon. It made me lose interest in MLB and gain more interest in NHL, NBA and NASCAR. Baseball used to be my second favorite sport, now it's not even on my radar. I'll probably catch an Aeros game or two this summer and a Pirates game, but that's it. Like I said, wake me up after the strike.

PS If you think Choo plans on being in Cleveland long term, read this. Choo hired Scott Boras this year and Scott's favorite thing is to get his client to the free agent market.

I hated the CC trade and the Cliff Lee trade when it happened. But the Tribe couldn't resign them. They already have too much payroll going to poorly performing veterans. We thought CC was a good maybe great regular season pitcher who folds in the big post-season game. And he's proven that in New York. We have enough of those in Cleveland already right next door. Reference anyone not wearing "23"...

Cliff Lee is average, 7 wins on a World Series team. Serviceable, but not worth the $$ he got from one good year. Philly didn't think so either, they shipped him to Seattle.

I'm not abandoning the Tribe just yet. I understand how small market baseball works. You need expert talent evaluation, reference the Rays. And a lot of luck. It's not as much fun as the cap sports, but when they win, it will be that much better.

I'm a lifelong racing fan, and was a big NASCAR fan, but they're recent changes, and the IndyCar series having a true management for the first time in decades, has me watching more and more IZOD IndyCar and less NASCAR...

[Dr Z]

I hated the CC trade and the Cliff Lee trade when it happened. But the Tribe couldn't resign them.

CC I understand. Cliff Lee was signed for another year, no need to trade at that time, if you couldn't resign him you could have traded him at the deadline this year for as much if not more. The organization was looking to save money by sacrificing wins. I'm not interested in investing my time/money into that line of organizational management.

[Spin]

If you knew the first thing about NBA basketball, you would know the real difference between LBJ/Charles/Mailman and Magic/Bird/Jordan is supporting cast. What did Michael do for Chicago before they got Pippen and Rodman? What did Kobe do for the Lakers after Shaq left and before Gasol arrived? What did the Celtics do in the regular season with Garnett out?

LeGone's supporting staff was so great, Danny Ferry just hit the bricks...

[Dr Z]

I'm not buying that LeBron is a cash cow for NE Ohio.

Analysts told Crain's New York Business that James, who becomes a free agent July 1, would have a huge impact on the company's stock price and revenues. A Knicks team featuring James would boost MSG Network's ratings, along with bringing an immediate $10 million to $20 million increase in revenue, Patrick Rishe, a professor of economics at Webster University, told Crain's. If the Knicks start making the playoffs, the annual spike could skyrocket by as much as $50 million. At the same time, Rishe said the value of the franchise, which Forbes put at $586 million last year, to increase by as much as $150 million with James, according to Crain's.

LeBron can be cash cow for MSG

LBJ impact on Chicago....2.7 BILLION with a B!

[GP1]

I'm not buying that LeBron is a cash cow for NE Ohio.

Analysts told Crain's New York Business that James, who becomes a free agent July 1, would have a huge impact on the company's stock price and revenues. A Knicks team featuring James would boost MSG Network's ratings, along with bringing an immediate $10 million to $20 million increase in revenue, Patrick Rishe, a professor of economics at Webster University, told Crain's. If the Knicks start making the playoffs, the annual spike could skyrocket by as much as $50 million. At the same time, Rishe said the value of the franchise, which Forbes put at $586 million last year, to increase by as much as $150 million with James, according to Crain's.

LeBron can be cash cow for MSG

LBJ impact on Chicago....2.7 BILLION with a B!

I believe the NY story. The Chicago story is fantasy with little evidence as to how that will actually happen.

[GP1]

If Detroit can win, the Indians can win. If the Twins can win, the Indians can win. It is more important for Cleveland for the Indians to be good than the Cavs.

I double dog dare you to sit and watch nine innings of an Indians game. Come back and post after.

I'm a Pirates fan. I could watch an Indians game standing on my head. It's all about conditioning and 15+ years of watching the Pirates has me in the best "watching bad baseball shape" I have ever been in. I fart in the general direction of this challenge.

Get a tape of last nights game and watch it. It took the opposing pitcher 88 pitches to retire 9 innings of Indians batters. You'll get a real good idea of the type of "major league" talent that is on the team from top to bottom. You do have some conditioning being a Pirates fan, they are almost as bad as the Indians. If you have watched 3 full Pirates games this year I would be shocked! MLB is a joke. Wake me up after the strike.

I watched some of the interleague between the Pirates and Indians. Pretty brutal to watch, but I survived and have come out the other end in better shape than I was before. Bring on a Baltimore vs Indians series!!!!!!!!

[Dr Z]

I watched some of the interleague between the Pirates and Indians. Pretty brutal to watch, but I survived and have come out the other end in better shape than I was before. Bring on a Baltimore vs Indians series!!!!!!!!

Santana is a player. Good job Dodgers minor league system. The ball jumps off his bat, he is almost good enough to start paying attention again. Then I start to think about it, four years and he is a free agent if he refuses to sign a contract extension like Choo. Depressing league.

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