Cleveland State Game

[OZoner]

Zips gave up .907 points per defensive possession tonight, which is excellent. Problem was the .74 points per offensive possession.

Thanks for the laugh OZoner

What?

[zippyfan34]

Zips gave up .907 points per defensive possession tonight, which is excellent. Problem was the .74 points per offensive possession.

Thanks for the laugh OZoner

What?

I'm starting to think OZoner is DaveinGreen's nephew.

[skip-zip]

The Zips need a lot of work on both offense and defense. Correcting what went wrong with only one or the other tonight is not going to turn the Zips into instant winners. They have a long way to go on both offense and defense to have a chance to be decent by the end of the season.

I have formally lowered my expectations for this team for the first half of the season. Is anyone still dreaming about upsetting one of the tough teams were going to be playing over the next few weeks? Forget about it! This team is going to be taking a Miamiesque win-loss record into conference play.

The only hope for this team is to develop into something that has a chance to win the MAC Tournament. More than ever this year, that's the only hope.

KD played all the starters more than 30 minutes tonight to go for the win. The result was a big loss and little experience for all the first-year players the Zips are going to need to have contributing in order to be good by the end of the season when it counts.

Forget about winning right now. The focus has to be on developing the younger players and integrating them with the veterans. Stop playing all the starters more than 30 minutes per game and start giving the first year guys meaningful minutes, even if they screw up.

If this team can't develop an effective 10-player rotation by the end of the season, the starters are not going to be able to carry the whole team on their backs.

What? Do you honestly think it's ok to lose games as long as you got some young guys some extra playing time? I don't know any coach who would buy into that idea. If our coach determines that playing our starters 30+ minutes a game gives us the best chance to win, then expect to see our starters continue to play those kind of minutes in these kinds of games. Many teams have to go this route in order to win games. With our lack of experience on the bench this year, maybe we're going to have to do that to win games too.

[meatwad]

Zips gave up .907 points per defensive possession tonight, which is excellent. Problem was the .74 points per offensive possession.

Thanks for the laugh OZoner

What?

I completely agree with you. Sarcasm doesn't translate well on the forums.

[Magnus]

I don't blame you guys for being upset. As a Viking supporter, I was a bit surprised at how Cleveland State outhustled the Zips and looked far more active. There was no spark at all for the Zips.

I have watched Zeke Marshall play twice now and have not been impressed. He is soft and the fact that he is a legit 7 footer, he should be dominating mid-major play. The Cole dunk on Marshall was the ultimate exclamation point on the Viking W.

Another poster, referenced the screens that Akron set on offense 40 feet from the hoop. I did not understand why Dambrot thought that would work, as a matter of fact, I felt it hindered Akron's offense.

On the flip side, Brett McClanahan was impressive on the defensive end of the floor. He really took Norris Cole out of the game in the first half. I like that kid a lot. However, Cole got loose in the second half because it is tough to contain a player of his caliber for 40 minutes.

Clearly, CSU's performances against Can't State and Akron support the fact that the Horizon League is a superior conference to the MAC. The Horizon is a vastly underrated league that should be get at least one at large bid for the NCAA tournament.

Good luck the rest of the way.

[MDZip]

On this day, I am thankful that Cleveland State does not have a football team.

[Dave in Green]

The Zips need a lot of work on both offense and defense. Correcting what went wrong with only one or the other tonight is not going to turn the Zips into instant winners. They have a long way to go on both offense and defense to have a chance to be decent by the end of the season.

I have formally lowered my expectations for this team for the first half of the season. Is anyone still dreaming about upsetting one of the tough teams were going to be playing over the next few weeks? Forget about it! This team is going to be taking a Miamiesque win-loss record into conference play.

The only hope for this team is to develop into something that has a chance to win the MAC Tournament. More than ever this year, that's the only hope.

KD played all the starters more than 30 minutes tonight to go for the win. The result was a big loss and little experience for all the first-year players the Zips are going to need to have contributing in order to be good by the end of the season when it counts.

Forget about winning right now. The focus has to be on developing the younger players and integrating them with the veterans. Stop playing all the starters more than 30 minutes per game and start giving the first year guys meaningful minutes, even if they screw up.

If this team can't develop an effective 10-player rotation by the end of the season, the starters are not going to be able to carry the whole team on their backs.

What? Do you honestly think it's ok to lose games as long as you got some young guys some extra playing time? I don't know any coach who would buy into that idea. If our coach determines that playing our starters 30+ minutes a game gives us the best chance to win, then expect to see our starters continue to play those kind of minutes in these kinds of games. Many teams have to go this route in order to win games. With our lack of experience on the bench this year, maybe we're going to have to do that to win games too.

The young guys will never be able to contribute if they aren't given adequate experience. Which would you rather have, an extra win or two early in the season when the wins don't count so much by playing the veterans long minutes, or a stronger, more experienced bench at the end of the season when postseason play is on the line by giving decent PT to the younger players early in the season? Take your pick, because you can't have it both ways.

[skip-zip]

The Zips need a lot of work on both offense and defense. Correcting what went wrong with only one or the other tonight is not going to turn the Zips into instant winners. They have a long way to go on both offense and defense to have a chance to be decent by the end of the season.

I have formally lowered my expectations for this team for the first half of the season. Is anyone still dreaming about upsetting one of the tough teams were going to be playing over the next few weeks? Forget about it! This team is going to be taking a Miamiesque win-loss record into conference play.

The only hope for this team is to develop into something that has a chance to win the MAC Tournament. More than ever this year, that's the only hope.

KD played all the starters more than 30 minutes tonight to go for the win. The result was a big loss and little experience for all the first-year players the Zips are going to need to have contributing in order to be good by the end of the season when it counts.

Forget about winning right now. The focus has to be on developing the younger players and integrating them with the veterans. Stop playing all the starters more than 30 minutes per game and start giving the first year guys meaningful minutes, even if they screw up.

If this team can't develop an effective 10-player rotation by the end of the season, the starters are not going to be able to carry the whole team on their backs.

What? Do you honestly think it's ok to lose games as long as you got some young guys some extra playing time? I don't know any coach who would buy into that idea. If our coach determines that playing our starters 30+ minutes a game gives us the best chance to win, then expect to see our starters continue to play those kind of minutes in these kinds of games. Many teams have to go this route in order to win games. With our lack of experience on the bench this year, maybe we're going to have to do that to win games too.

The young guys will never be able to contribute if they aren't given adequate experience. Which would you rather have, an extra win or two early in the season when the wins don't count so much by playing the veterans long minutes, or a stronger, more experienced bench at the end of the season when postseason play is on the line by giving decent PT to the younger players early in the season? Take your pick, because you can't have it both ways.

Dave, I know where you're going with this line of thinking. But you don't sacrifice victories to give other guys more experience. Save those situations for the ends of big wins, big losses, and horrible seasons. If your best chance of winning is to play your starters for 40 min., you play your starters for 40 min. Should someone have told that coach down there in Cowlumbus that he should not have played his starters 35+ minutes last year because he needed to think more about the future? He was simply doing what he thought was best to win each game. I don't know coaches who'd think otherwise.

I'd like to see a postgame press conference where someone tries to sell people on the idea that "sure, we could have won this game with our starters playing more, but we decided it might be more important to give some other guys some experience for later in the season".

[yazan07]

On this day, I am thankful that Cleveland State does not have a football team.

Well it's not like you couldn't walk into any given classroom at CSU and say "hey we need some guys to play a pickup game against Akron's football team" and probably get a decent matchup hahaha.

But yeah CSU has pretty much spanked us this year

[Dave in Green]

Dave, I know where you're going with this line of thinking. But you don't sacrifice victories to give other guys more experience. Save those situations for the ends of big wins, big losses, and horrible seasons. If your best chance of winning is to play your starters for 40 min., you play your starters for 40 min. Should someone have told that coach down there in Cowlumbus that he should not have played his starters 35+ minutes last year because he needed to think more about the future? He was simply doing what he thought was best to win each game. I don't know coaches who'd think otherwise.

I'd like to see a postgame press conference where someone tries to sell people on the idea that "sure, we could have won this game with our starters playing more, but we decided it might be more important to give some other guys some experience for later in the season".

Skip, I also understand where you're coming from. But every good basketball coach has at least some grasp of the concept of "pay me now or pay me later." No one ever wants to lose any game. But the best coaches tend to have the best grasp of the big picture, which is that if you cannot be consistently great throughout the course of an entire season, it's better to be good at the end of the season than the beginning.

If seasoning young players in actual game situations is important to being good at the end of the season, some coaches do take the risk of throwing them into tough situations early in the season and not just playing them a few minutes at the end of blowouts.

There are plenty of instances of coaches being questioned about why they kept inexperienced players on the floor in tough games, and the coaches have said these players have to learn now so that the team will be stronger when tournament time rolls around.

It's a balancing act to try to rack up wins while giving inexperienced bench players who are expected to be contributors by the end of the season a chance to learn how to contribute. Coaches don't all have the exact same philosophy on this, and neither do fans.

As long as I've been posting on ZN.O, I've been consistent in saying that I would rather have the Zips be strong at the end of the season than the beginning. I support anything KD does to accomplish that. KD said the younger guys will be getting more PT starting in January. After last night, I wouldn't mind seeing that start a little earlier.

[CSU Bookstore]

I might be missing something, all but one of the CSU starters played more than 30 minutes so it doesn't surprise me that Akron's starters played more than 30 minutes.

On a side note, make sure you ask the manager of the Barnes & Noble Bookstore when he will be wearing a CSU t-shirt to work. We had a friendly wager on the game.

[RootforRoo44]

On the flip side, Brett McClanahan was impressive on the defensive end of the floor. He really took Norris Cole out of the game in the first half. I like that kid a lot.

Funny how there are so many people on here that say the exact opposite about Nitro. He plays fantastic defense at times and is as fundamental of a rebounder as they come.

Thanks for seeing it how it is.

Btw, you Vikings have our number so far this year in athletics.

[Dave in Green]

I might be missing something, all but one of the CSU starters played more than 30 minutes so it doesn't surprise me that Akron's starters played more than 30 minutes. .....

Under Coach Dambrot, UA typically has a fairly deep bench with a fair number of subs playing significant minutes and the starters generally less than 30 minutes. It may be common for some teams to play all five starters for more than 30 minutes, but it's unusual for the Zips. The problem is that an unexpected number of players from last season departed the team in addition to the expected graduates, and the Zips bench has not in recent years been loaded with so many new players who have no experience with the team.

[Zipmeister]

I think Cleveland State is going to win the Horizon League this year. Norris Cole is on the NBA Draft Radar for late 1st or early 2nd round. You lost to the best team, at least in my eyes, in the Horizon League. And yes, even better than Butler.

Have your eyes checked after you see Butler (I noticed you never answered my question about Evans).

[eguins]

I think Cleveland State is going to win the Horizon League this year. Norris Cole is on the NBA Draft Radar for late 1st or early 2nd round. You lost to the best team, at least in my eyes, in the Horizon League. And yes, even better than Butler.

Have your eyes checked after you see Butler (I noticed you never answered my question about Evans).

I never saw a reply and I've seen Butler four times this year buddy. They are very good, but so is CSU.

[xu9697]

I follow both the Zips and the Vikes as much as I can (I follow WAY too many college b-ball teams for various reasons).

Watched the whole game (DVRd it). I think the simple difference right now is that CSU knows what it is, and Akron is still searching. CSU is all about Cole controlling the b-ball, scoring and getting the ball to Harmon and Montgomery for open looks. Tim K. is just a "dirty work" type player, and Pogue is SLOWLY developing. Anyone else contributing is a bonus, but CSU is all about that 3-guard offense.

The Zips seemed to try and lean on Nik sometimes, Zeke sometimes, Roberts tried to take over for a little while and even McNees and Brett McL. tried to step it up. But nothing was consistent. They really lack an identity right now, and a true go-to player or 2. I know KD's teams do not have that 15+ pt scorer or 2, but they still find an indentity. Once they establish their identies and their roles, they will be fine. I still see a lot of talent and possibilities for the Zips.

[Magnus]

One thing that has to be understood about CSU is the fact that one of our best players is out (D'Aundray Brown) when he returns I do believe that CSU will compete with anybody in the Horizon....even Butler and Detroit.

[zippy_ua_00]

One last thing. Steve McNees .. get a hair cut. A flop mop may be cute on a freshman, but, you, sir,

are a senior. Its high time to look and act like one. Steve, take the leadership reins. This team

seems to be rudderless. Its YOUR job to lead since KD essentially clipped Nikola's wings or other

parts.

i bet thats what they were thinking about adam morrison at gonzaga a few years ago too. probably shoulda shaved his moustache too. probably woulda helped them win more

[ZachTheZip]

I follow both the Zips and the Vikes as much as I can (I follow WAY too many college b-ball teams for various reasons).

Watched the whole game (DVRd it). I think the simple difference right now is that CSU knows what it is, and Akron is still searching. CSU is all about Cole controlling the b-ball, scoring and getting the ball to Harmon and Montgomery for open looks. Tim K. is just a "dirty work" type player, and Pogue is SLOWLY developing. Anyone else contributing is a bonus, but CSU is all about that 3-guard offense.

The Zips seemed to try and lean on Nik sometimes, Zeke sometimes, Roberts tried to take over for a little while and even McNees and Brett McL. tried to step it up. But nothing was consistent. They really lack an identity right now, and a true go-to player or 2. I know KD's teams do not have that 15+ pt scorer or 2, but they still find an indentity. Once they establish their identies and their roles, they will be fine. I still see a lot of talent and possibilities for the Zips.

Zeke is supposed to be our identity.

[Dave in Green]

Now that I've cooled down a little about all the things I saw go wrong for the Zips against CSU, I have a slightly different perspective. My first reaction was that the new guys needed more PT, and the starters shouldn't all be playing more than 30 minutes. But I see now where the starters also need more time playing with each other to develop their new system for this season.

With Zeke continuing to develop different aspects of his game and become more a focal point of the offense, it's going to take time and experience to get the chemistry right. Nitro is also playing a much greater role this season, and needs time to fully develop the role he will be playing on the team.

It's going to take time for everyone to adapt to the new roles and have good timing and chemistry. So as much as the new Zips players need to be given enough PT to develop into significant contributors, the starters also need plenty of PT together to get in synch with each other, learn what works best and play more like a team. Even by the end of the season when the new players are contributing more, the starters are still likely to average 25 or more minutes per game.

So when KD says he plans to be playing the younger players more minutes by January, maybe it's as much because he knows the starters need more PT together as because he thinks the younger players need to be brought up to speed more slowly than some of us would like to see.

[Quickzips]

After a couple of days (and a lot of turkey) I'll chime back in here with my thoughts. First off, I still feel that we absolutely need to give our bench guys a longer leash. This team is going to be in all kinds of trouble come conference play if the starters have been averaging 30 minutes plus all OOC season and the bench guys have never seen more than 8 or 9 a game. I am also very concerned about our rebounding effort. For all that we have talked about having size on this roster we are getting killed on the glass worse than I can ever remember under KD and it is truly puzzling. I don't think all of it can be traced to Zeke being so aggressive going after the blocks and getting himself out of position. A lot of it just comes down to effort, and we simply aren't seeing it on the glass right now. It is something that is relatively easy to correct, but the guys on the floor have to want to correct it.

Now for what will likely be my most controversial thought of the day. I think we need to stop running so much of the offense through Zeke all the time. Zeke is still very much an unfinished product on the offensive end. Don't get me wrong, he is lightyears ahead of where he was at this time last year, but he still has a long way to go. Yet it seems like we are spending a considerable amount of time trying to force feed him the ball. I remember far too many times against CSU that we spent 15-20 seconds or more of the shot clock trying to get Zeke a touch in the post. Often times resulting in him holding onto the ball 15 feet from the hoop, not in a position to score the ball with a defender drapped all over him and 12-15 second left on the shot clock. Those kinds of possessions are wasted possessions. Zeke needs to get his touches, but they need to come within the flow of the offense. If it isn't there relatively early in the shot clock we need to move on and find another shot that is available. I think a lot of this is what is leading to the anemic start for McNees this year as he seems so focused on trying to find looks for Zeke that he has forgotten all about shooting it himself. I understand we are trying to develop Zeke into an all-American type Center and NBA draft pick, but I personally think we are doing a dis-service to Zeke and to the team by force feeding him the ball late in the shot clock in a position where he can't reasonably be expected to score.

[eguins]

Just wanted to throw this one out there:

Cleveland State rolled all over St. Bonaventure tonight 69-51 to go to 7-0 on the year.

Butler lost in OT to Evansville 71-68 to go to 3-2 on the year.

[Zipmeister]

Just wanted to throw this one out there:

Cleveland State rolled all over St. Bonaventure tonight 69-51 to go to 7-0 on the year.

Butler lost in OT to Evansville 71-68 to go to 3-2 on the year.

How did the Phantoms do? Do you think they are better than the Lancers this year?

[GP1]

The Zips are now 1-2 against teams I've actually heard of. They could easily be 0-3 with two L's at home against in state teams. Some of you like to either hide your heads in the sand or create an illusion for yourselves that things aren't that bad and KD will turn it around. Time will tell.

This schedule is not the usual cupcake schedule the Zips create for the BB program. They now have four road games in a row and two of those games are against good programs. They need to get some W's or they will be in big trouble going into the MAC season.

KD rightly gave the boot to guys at the end of last season and upgraded his roster. I don't care if they are not used to playing together or not, they need to win games and the expectations of the OOC "building process" should be higher.

They have a high school All American in his second season. KD has been here for a long time now. They brought in better talent. They should not be losing like they did the other night and teams like YSU should not be allowed to hang around. It's time to turn the heat up on this program.

[eguins]

The Zips are now 1-2 against teams I've actually heard of. They could easily be 0-3 with two L's at home against in state teams. Some of you like to either hide your heads in the sand or create an illusion for yourselves that things aren't that bad and KD will turn it around. Time will tell.

This schedule is not the usual cupcake schedule the Zips create for the BB program. They now have four road games in a row and two of those games are against good programs. They need to get some W's or they will be in big trouble going into the MAC season.

KD rightly gave the boot to guys at the end of last season and upgraded his roster. I don't care if they are not used to playing together or not, they need to win games and the expectations of the OOC "building process" should be higher.

They have a high school All American in his second season. KD has been here for a long time now. They brought in better talent. They should not be losing like they did the other night and teams like YSU should not be allowed to hang around. It's time to turn the heat up on this program.

YSU is now 4-1 on the year. As surprised as everyone is in town by our early success, it would appear that the W you guys got over us was a good one.