Progress,How Do you Measure It?

[Lee Adams]

We have been and will continue to hear from Ianello and Wistrcill that in spite of having only 2 wins in the last 17 games they are making progress with the football program.

How do they and anyone else for that matter measure the 'progress' of the program? There has to be a baseline to start from. What was the baseline to begin measuring progress when Ianello took over. The simple answer his record,wins and loses. Obviously if that was the baseline Ianello is not making much progress. Even JD had 3 wins his final season. And, during JD's first 2 years

he was .500 or better and won a MAC Championship. So he came in and won immediately albeit with a lot of Lee Owen's players.But the record is probably only part of the equation in measuring progress. So what else? Recruiting? It is probably too early to judge whether Ianello's recruits will be able to raise the level of play in the program. There are still a lot of JD's recruits on the team. Competetiveness? In 17 games has what Ianello has done made the team more competetive where it counts,in the MAC? So far that hasn't really shown up but there are some tough MAC games coming up.

There are things that coaches see in practice and in games that most fans can not see or do not notice. If the coach says there is progress there how do we really know? Thus far I have seen a team that is not able to do too many things consistently well. I see a defense that continues to give up lots of yards,especially on the ground. I see an offense that consistentl can not stay on the field. I see an offensive line that continues to be porous. I see a QB whohas real problems operating in this offensive system,who has problems throwing short and intermediate balls and who holds the ball too long. I do see a running game that has some promise. I see a couple of wide receivers who appear to be developing.

But, I still also see a coaching staff that has as of yet been unable to consistently put players in positions to succeed.

So,please help me understand what else to look for as far as progress.

[MaxZIP]

Wins are all tha matter.

[Doug Snyder]

Do you think the Browns would have benefited by a little more patience during the Belichick years?? I am not sure if there is one proven method to measure progress. We are going to have a vote on the very issue next November to see if there is enough progress in improving our economy. Unfortunately football is not a truly democratic institution. You can conly vote with your tcket and attendance.

Me?? I still support the coach and I see progress. We have a young team that is overmatched on the O-line yet there is discipline and steady improvement. How many penalties did we have today?? How many balls batted down at the line?? We were competitive without our best receiver (Suel) and our best runner (Chisolm) not at 100% and playing only about ½ the time. The special teams have made dramatic improvement. I want to see what this group of guys can do next year with a year of experience and hopefully an improved O-line. The team has not quit…so neither will I. Count me as a supporter of the coach and team (still)

[MaxZIP]

Do you think the Browns would have benefited by a little more patience during the Belichick years?? I am not sure if there is one proven method to measure progress. We are going to have a vote on the very issue next November to see if there is enough progress in improving our economy. Unfortunately football is not a truly democratic institution. You can conly vote with your tcket and attendance.

Me?? I still support the coach and I see progress. We have a young team that is overmatched on the O-line yet there is discipline and steady improvement. How many penalties did we have today?? How many balls batted down at the line?? We were competitive without our best receiver (Suel) and our best runner (Chisolm) not at 100% and playing only about ½ the time. The special teams have made dramatic improvement. I want to see what this group of guys can do next year with a year of experience and hopefully an improved O-line. The team has not quit…so neither will I. Count me as a supporter of the coach and team (still)

Winning more games=the only thing that matters

[Doug Snyder]

Winning more games=the only thing that matters

Who said that?? Oh yea...YOU. So I am to assume that is your OPINION as I looked it up in the the dictionary and even Googled it and nothing like that came back. Please send me the link if I am mistaken.

[GP1]

And, during JD's first 2 years he was .500 or better and won a MAC Championship. So he came in and won immediately albeit with a lot of Lee Owen's players.

What turned it around for JD his first two years was Brett Biggs. He was willing to make a change and had a player who could immediately impact change in the program.

Who is Coach I's player who could immediately make change in the program?

[MaxZIP]

Winning more games=the only thing that matters

Who said that?? Oh yea...YOU. So I am to assume that is your OPINION as I looked it up in the the dictionary and even Googled it and nothing like that came back. Please send me the link if I am mistaken.

Wow. I thought we plays to win. I thought we practiced to win. I thought coaches are brought in to win. Apparently my opinion is bunk.

[GP1]

Winning more games=the only thing that matters

Who said that?? Oh yea...YOU. So I am to assume that is your OPINION as I looked it up in the the dictionary and even Googled it and nothing like that came back. Please send me the link if I am mistaken.

Wow. I thought we plays to win. I thought we practiced to win. I thought coaches are brought in to win. Apparently my opinion is bunk.

It is bunk. We don't do anything to win. Didn't you know that? Everything we do is part of a building process.

[UAZipster0305]

I was discouraged after last weekend. When you lose to EMU, you have hit rock bottom. We are now officially catfish.

I would like to commend the players...in spite of all the losing, I haven't gotten the feeling that any of them have quit playing every down of every game.

However, I thought FIU would blow us out. We made it competitive though and felt for the first time during iCoach's tenure that we made progress this week. We created some turnovers, scored some points, moved the ball (a little bit), and made some stops. A 40 yard field goal and good punting are some things I don't take for granted. And this was all with only half of a Chizzle. Of course there are many things to improve, but there is some light.

I've been one of the biggest opponents of iCoach since the beginning but I want to eat some crow. Dish it up, Coach!

Unfortunately, I think the OU game will bring this all back into perspective. Three wins this season will still be difficult to obtain.

[Doug Snyder]

Winning more games=the only thing that matters

Who said that?? Oh yea...YOU. So I am to assume that is your OPINION as I looked it up in the the dictionary and even Googled it and nothing like that came back. Please send me the link if I am mistaken.

Wow. I thought we plays to win. I thought we practiced to win. I thought coaches are brought in to win. Apparently my opinion is bunk.

No...your opinion is not bunk. But neither is mine. Your reply to my post emphatically stated I was wrong and showed me the correct answer.

If you had a son in middle school that was failing in reading...scoring 60% on tests. Would you hire a tutor to help him improve?? If your eventual target was 95% or "A", would you not think there was progress if he scored 65% and then 70% and later 80%?? Or would you fire the tutor and say the goal was 95% and he failed?? The question was "how do you measure progress”. You gave your opinion...I gave mine. I did not say you were wrong....you said I was wrong. It is YOU who are saying my opinion is bunk. Both are valid.

[you am i]

It is a sign of how low things have sunk with this program that the discussion among the fans is about measuring progress in anything but wins.

Wins are all that matter. I don't care about all the improvement people see if the end result is more losing.

BTW, there seems to be a feeling on the part of some people that if you are critical of the program then you don't support the team. That's not true. Personally, I've seen enough already to make me believe that RI is not going to be successful here and that he will be fired before his contract is up. But if lightning strikes and he somehow gets this thing turned around and develops a winner, I will be extremely happy to have been proven wrong.

And a comment on the Belichik reference. I think getting fired made him a better coach. It forced him to change. I think that he has said that himself. Had he not been fired, I'm not sure he would have ever developed into the coach he is today.

[GoZips]

It is a sign of how low things have sunk with this program that the discussion among the fans is about measuring progress in anything but wins.

Wins are all that matter. I don't care about all the improvement people see if the end result is more losing.

BTW, there seems to be a feeling on the part of some people that if you are critical of the program then you don't support the team. That's not true. Personally, I've seen enough already to make me believe that RI is not going to be successful here and that he will be fired before his contract is up. But if lightning strikes and he somehow gets this thing turned around and develops a winner, I will be extremely happy to have been proven wrong.

And a comment on the Belichik reference. I think getting fired made him a better coach. It forced him to change. I think that he has said that himself. Had he not been fired, I'm not sure he would have ever developed into the coach he is today.

you am i, you make some credible points. Here is my take.

Winning is the bottom line. It is an old saw, 'if winning were not important, we would not keep score'.

The word seldom used on this form, because most of us lack patience, is foundation.

While I really want Ianello gone I admit that I saw improvement against Florida International.

It was mostly in the dinks and dunks, but it was definitely there.

Like a poster stated, the team never quit on any play. They are getting tougher and more

battle hardened.

As another poster stated, the fruits of recruiting are still in the future. Granted, the great

recruiter has not dazzled us with stellar talent. The real question is can he bring in good

enough talent to compete at the MAC level of play? We shall see.

An immediate issue that needs addressed is play calling. It sucks.

Another issue that needs immediate attention is a pass rush. Pass rush? What pass rush?

I see no stinking pass rush. Hombre, you can not win without a pass rush.

To address the first point from above; foundation is the key. And the foundation always, always,

begins on the lines, offense and defense. That is the area of greatest need. The prime

objective is to give the quarterback time to do his job. And, its not happening.

On the other side of the ball (defense) the objective is to stop their quarterback by taking away

his time to do his job. This begins with two points. First, seal the line of scrimmage so their

running backs cannot gain yardage. Second, attack the QB so he does not have time to throw.

Sounds simple. And, it is. You just need big, strong, SMART defensive linemen.

Bottom line: fire Ianello and if possible send his bunkie, Uncle Tommy with him.

[Big Zip]

I agree we measure progress in wins, but understand Doug's point.

Yesterday's game was surprising to me from a score standpoint, but to think this team competed well yesterday versus FIU trying to give the game away is not watching very critically.

Progress to me will be seeing iCoach adjust to his talent versus fitting a square peg into a round hole. i just don't see much of this at all.

I want to see more creativity from the offense. I think we saw yesterday that Moore can be effective with his feet we should leverage this in the offense. I think Moore gets the ball batted down a lot and we should probably move him out from behind center into the shotgun a lot more often....moving the pocket etc.

My biggest disappointment yesterday was the defensive coordinator. I hope I'm not the only person who noticed the lack of coaching going on by the defensive coordinator. Everytime I saw the team come off the field they would trudge to their ring of chairs and sit there amongst themselves while the coach was nowhere near them and not talking to them at all. It was like he had nothing to tel them. The team just sat there by themselves every time they came off the field. If the d-coordinators ida of coaching is giving his team the silent treatment....please fire him now.

[bobbyake]

attendance is up 19% this year over last year, that has to count for something.

[you am i]

The stats from yesterday's game:

Rushing: FIU 216;Akron 112

Passing: FIU 308; Akron 157

First downs: FIU 29; Akron 14

Though the Zips kept the score reasonably close, it's clear that FIU thoroughly outplayed Akron. FIU is a decent team, but not as good as the better MAC teams. Sagarin has them rated at 87, I think.

That being said, I also saw glimmers of improvement yesterday. There were times where the offense was moving with confidence. But then things would breakdown.

I'm not making my remarks based on the team's performance based on one game. I'm making them in the context of RI's entire tenure, including the numerous embarrassing blowouts.

As far as I am concerned, his grace period is over. I don't expect miracles but I do expect progress. And that means wins, at least over the teams in the lower tier of the MAC. He has not shown that he can do that.

As we say every week, we'll know more after the next game. OU is no super team if they can lose to UB.

[ZachTheZip]

I'll call it progress once Ianello has a better season than Brookhart's final one. Until that happens, it's still a net movement in the wrong direction.

[Zipmeister]

Points of progress.

1. Upon winning a coin toss this season we have not elected to kick off.

2. Few of our coaches still carry their papers inside their pants.

3. We are now scheduling more beatable FCS teams.

4. There must be a four, I just can't come up with it.

[bobbyake]

Points of progress.

1. Upon winning a coin toss this season we have not elected to kick off.

2. Few of our coaches still carry their papers inside their pants.

3. We are now scheduling more beatable FCS teams.

4. There must be a four, I just can't come up with it.

4. attendance is up 19% over last year

[Zipmeister]

Points of progress.

1. Upon winning a coin toss this season we have not elected to kick off.

2. Few of our coaches still carry their papers inside their pants.

3. We are now scheduling more beatable FCS teams.

4. There must be a four, I just can't come up with it.

4. attendance is up 19% over last year

Yes, I knew there was a four.

If attendance keeps increasing at this pace there will be more people playing the games than watching them.

[xu9697]

It is simple for me right now=

win 2 more games, and he gets another year. If not, c ya.

No reason with a bye week perfectly placed in the middle of the season that this team cannot win 2 more games.

OU= 4-2 but barely beat Can't and lost to Buffalo. Winnable game

CMU= looking tougher now, but still got blasted by WMU (very good team). This one is going to be tough

@ Miami= road game, and Miami is not as bad as their record. Tough, but winnable game.

Can't= ABSOLUTELY A MUST WIN. Terrible team, home game.

@ Buffalo= only team we beat last year. Toss up game.

@ WMU. Don't give us much of a chance.

Can't should be a win, 3 other games that are winnable. Asking too much to go 2-4 against this schedule? Eh, no. Win 2 or show Coach I the door, Tommy!

[MaxZIP]

It is simple for me right now=

win 2 more games, and he gets another year. If not, c ya.

No reason with a bye week perfectly placed in the middle of the season that this team cannot win 2 more games.

OU= 4-2 but barely beat Can't and lost to Buffalo. Winnable game

CMU= looking tougher now, but still got blasted by WMU (very good team). This one is going to be tough

@ Miami= road game, and Miami is not as bad as their record. Tough, but winnable game.

Can't= ABSOLUTELY A MUST WIN. Terrible team, home game.

@ Buffalo= only team we beat last year. Toss up game.

@ WMU. Don't give us much of a chance.

Can't should be a win, 3 other games that are winnable. Asking too much to go 2-4 against this schedule? Eh, no. Win 2 or show Coach I the door, Tommy!

I think you are right. I had said before that we would be able to make a call after the VMI and EMU game as to whether or not progress has been made. The loss to EMU hurts and not winning 3 games this year should be enough of a body of work to make a definitive call on Icoach. JD faced a myriad of season ending injuries and player behavior issues in his last year but he still managed to win three games and be competitive in a few more. Right now we are years away from being at that level. THE TEAM IS WORSE OFF TODAY UNDER ICOACH. I will eat those words if the Zips win 4 or more games this year without getting blown out in other remaining games.

[Captain Kangaroo]

We have absolutely no chance to win 4 games this season.

K.e.n.t. is looking like a good chance at a win. Other than that, we're screwed. Buffalo might be close, but we'll be an underdog. Miami might overlook us...they have a history of doing that against MAC bottom-feeders. But there is no way this Zips team wins 3 games out of their remaining 6. Not after winning only 2 of Ianello's previous 18.

And - Ianello isn't going anywhere. He's here for the next 2 seasons even if he duplicates his Year #1 multiple times. A scenario that appears quite possible.

[Dave in Green]

One area where there has been clear progress is in the Zips' discipline to avoid silly penalties. The motion penalties and other silly mistakes such as late hits were, thankfully, absent from the Zips' performance. Instead, it was FIU making those mistakes with 10 penalties to the Zips' 5.

The most glaring lack of progress to me is in the area of missed tackles. Brian Wagner is a fine linebacker. But there's no way he should be put in the position of having to make 22 tackles in one game. Decisive tackling is one area where the Zips really need to focus their attention. If I don't see progress in the next couple of games, I will be terribly disappointed.

I enjoyed meeting Doug Snyder for the first time and sitting with him during the game. He made a number of thoughtful and intelligent observations throughout the game that showed me he knows his football.

For example, early in the game when FIU was piling up yards, Doug said not to worry. He said FIU's offense would pile up lots of yards between the 20-yard lines, but would not be as effective in the red zone. Doug predicted that the score would be close and that the Zips would be within striking distance in the 4th quarter.

Sure enough, the Zips trailed by only 3 points (17-20) early in the 4th quarter, and ultimately came up short by just a couple of plays against a team favored by 20 points.

Yes, it was yet another loss, and losing stinks, period. And when you've bottomed out as Zips football has, no progress seems fast enough to turn pessimism into optimism.

But as long as the Zips continue to improve in other areas of the game the way they have in the discipline to avoid silly penalties, I'll continue to attend the games and watch for further signs of progress.

You can't get from losing to winning without progress.

[blueandgold]

We have absolutely no chance to win 4 games this season.

K.e.n.t. is looking like a good chance at a win. Other than that, we're screwed. Buffalo might be close, but we'll be an underdog. Miami might overlook us...they have a history of doing that against MAC bottom-feeders. But there is no way this Zips team wins 3 games out of their remaining 6. Not after winning only 2 of Ianello's previous 18.

And - Ianello isn't going anywhere. He's here for the next 2 seasons even if he duplicates his Year #1 multiple times. A scenario that appears quite possible.

There is really only one way to make sure the above doesn't happen...everyone with season tickets must cancel them and not renew until a change is made. I've been trying to get friends, family and even strangers to have interest in the Zips since the early 80's. Sadly, I can't even get myself to a game anymore. In all seriousness, I'm not sure I would even go if I were given free tickets. I can't believe I'm even saying this, but I can't take it anymore. The football program has become a joke and it makes me sick!

[zip403]

We have been and will continue to hear from Ianello and Wistrcill that in spite of having only 2 wins in the last 17 games they are making progress with the football program.

How do they and anyone else for that matter measure the 'progress' of the program? There has to be a baseline to start from. What was the baseline to begin measuring progress when Ianello took over. The simple answer his record,wins and loses. Obviously if that was the baseline Ianello is not making much progress. Even JD had 3 wins his final season. And, during JD's first 2 years

he was .500 or better and won a MAC Championship. So he came in and won immediately albeit with a lot of Lee Owen's players.But the record is probably only part of the equation in measuring progress. So what else? Recruiting? It is probably too early to judge whether Ianello's recruits will be able to raise the level of play in the program. There are still a lot of JD's recruits on the team. Competetiveness? In 17 games has what Ianello has done made the team more competetive where it counts,in the MAC? So far that hasn't really shown up but there are some tough MAC games coming up.

There are things that coaches see in practice and in games that most fans can not see or do not notice. If the coach says there is progress there how do we really know? Thus far I have seen a team that is not able to do too many things consistently well. I see a defense that continues to give up lots of yards,especially on the ground. I see an offense that consistentl can not stay on the field. I see an offensive line that continues to be porous. I see a QB whohas real problems operating in this offensive system,who has problems throwing short and intermediate balls and who holds the ball too long. I do see a running game that has some promise. I see a couple of wide receivers who appear to be developing.

But, I still also see a coaching staff that has as of yet been unable to consistently put players in positions to succeed.

So,please help me understand what else to look for as far as progress.

of corse RI is going to say WERE MAKING PROGRESS,,,whats he going to say? were going BACKWARDS ,and IM a fool. We MIGHT have a chance to win a game towards the eend of the season ONLY because the other team wont be UP for us. LIke FIU,,,they are a GOOD football team,,but I am sure they came in here flat because they WERT worried about playing us, Hard to get excited about playing the ZIPS, unless your a 3rd team player who MIGHT get some PT on the visiting team.