Winning does not get old

[ZipperRoo44]

Winning does not know divisions, it knows a process. On Saturday Wayne State won it's 11th game of the season and beat the defending D2 national champions on the road to advance to the D2 Final Four.

Some people on this forum will discount it as being a lower level of football and will question whether Paul Winters could replicate the same winning ways at Akron and D1. Would the same people have protested Central Michigan's hiring of Brian Kelly out of the GLIAC and Grand Valley State. Kelly is the current head coach at Notre Dame, just 7 years after being a D2 head coach. Kelly had been a D3/D2 assistant for 7 years before getting a D2 head coaching job where he stayed for 13 years before heading to CMU and Cincy for a pair of 3 year stays - then he got the UND head coaching position. Why would CMU, Cincinnati and UND hire a guy who had coached in D2? He was a winner.

Akron football has won 10 of its last 48 games over the last 4 seasons and has paid off two coaches after both failed to move the program forward. Both coaches were bought out as President Proenza wanted a coach who could fill up Infocision Stadium and make the Zips a regular MAC contender.

Over the same four year period Wayne State has won 34 games and lost 13, and has shown a steady run of improvement against all odds in the best D2 conference in America. This year the team is 11-3, and is a combined 12 points away from being 14-0. Two losses were by a total of 4 point, including a 1 point overtime loss in the regular season finale. Do not lose this point, as it is telling of the leadership that Paul Winters provides to his team.

A 1 point loss in that last regular season game could have been crushing as it cost Wayne State seeding in the playoffs. Winters has coached up his team and has since gone on the road for three playoff games and won all by an average of 8 points per game.

Winners win.

When it the last time Akron had a winning team? 2005 when the team went 7-6 and won the MAC Championship.

Akron has had 6 winning seasons over the last 20 years. Paul Winters was a big part of 3 of those and helped build the 6-5 and 7-6 teams that JD Brookhart coached in his first two seasons.

Winners win.

You can talk all you want about a national search, about looking around at big names and hot shot coordinators, but in the end, what Akron needs more than anything else is someone who knows how to build, how to lead, how to manage, how to coach. You will not satisfy those requirements with someone who has never been a head coach. That's a specific skill set which takes years to sharpen. Success as a coordinator or as an assistant does not necessarily translate into success as a head coach.

It's a risky proposition for a program that has had 6 straight losing seasons, spent $100,000,000 on a new stadium, field house and outdoor practice complex, and another $1,000,000 in transition costs from buying out the last two head coaches and assistant staffs to look to an unproven candidate who has never been a head coach nor recruited in Northeast Ohio.

In Paul Winters you have an alumnus who would consider this the best job in America. In any other candidate you have someone who wants to come in, make an impact, and then bolt to a better job. In the end that is not a bad thing, but how has that worked the last two times out.

History has a funny way of repeating itself.

Winners win.

Gordon Larson. Jim Dennison. Paul Winters.

Winners win.

[RootforRoo44]

great post...still not entirely sold but that's a fantastic argument.

[Blue & Gold]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

[Zipgrad01]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

[Hilltopper]

I'll bet Winters team never kicked off twice in the same game.

[Blue & Gold]

I'll bet Winters team never kicked off twice in the same game.

Well, I'll bet they have, but I know what you mean.

[ZipperRoo44]

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

Let's see...

Tressel played at Baldwin-Wallace, coached at D2 Akron, before moving on to D1 Miami, Syracuse and Ohio State then back down to 1AA at Youngstown State then back up to 1A and Ohio State. If anyone has worked himself up it has been Jim. This alone debunks your theory on moving up. Kelly at Notre Dame is another strong example.

Miles played at Michigan, worked in private business for 5 years then went back to Michigan as a GA. He later coached at Colorado, back to Michigan, then to Oklahoma State, to the NFL with the Cowboys, back to Oklahoma State and then to LSU. Miles is a silver spoon guy who had big names blocking for him, but who has also done a great job everywhere he has been.

Saban is the son of a Coaching Legend and the key protege to Bill Billichek, played at Can't State, coached at Syracuse, West Virginia, Ohio State, Navy, Michigan State, Houston Oilers, Toledo, Cleveland Browns, Michigan State, LSU, Miami Dolphins, and Alabama.

Not sure I follow your logic - can you please elaborate?

[ZipperRoo44]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

Kehres would never leave Mount Union because his wife and son both work there and he is the AD - so he has a pretty solid relationship with his boss. He does handle scholarships, namely taking in a ton of transfers from D1 programs and working the need based aid regulations of DIII better than anyone in the country.

[zip37]

zipperroo-- Very insightful and well thought out and presented, your conclusion is RIGHT ON!!!!!

[you am i]

The best candidates, I think, are the ones with a history of winning as head coaches, for the reasons stated in the original post. The problem is there are so few and they get snatched up quick. Even then, it is not a guarantee of success.

Dave Clawson at BGSU is a case in point. His first HC job was at Fordham in 1999. He took a terrible program and was 0-11 his first year, but turned them into a big winner in five years. He took over at Richmond in 2004 and did the same thing. After going 11-3 in 2007 and then spending one year as OC at Tennessee, he was hired as HC at Bowling Green, where he has struggled. After a decent season his first year, BG was 2-10 last year and 5-7 this year. The jury is still out on him, but so far, he has not had the same magic at BG as had at the smaller schools.

There are far more qualified assistants out there with no HC experience than successful small college HCs, so that is usually the route mid-majors go. At least, that's how it seems to me.

One factual correction to a prior post in this thread: Nick Saban is no relation to Lou Saban.

[ZipperRoo44]

One factual correction to a prior post in this thread: Nick Saban is no relation to Lou Saban.

Nick Lou Saban, 55, named for his father Nick Saban Sr. and cousin Lou Saban, a former coach for the Buffalo Bills, grew up in Fairmont, W.Va.

[Zip_ME87]

Although it wasn't football, Bob Huggins came to Akron from Walsh, where he was quite successful. He went on to take Akron to our first NCAA Tournament appearance in our D-1 era. Then he moved on to Cincy, Kansas State, and WVU and throughout has been to the Final Four several times. A successful lower division head coach can definitely be successful at D-1 if the coach is a winner and is driven to be a winner.

[Lee Adams]

Although it wasn't football, Bob Huggins came to Akron from Walsh, where he was quite successful. He went on to take Akron to our first NCAA Tournament appearance in our D-1 era. Then he moved on to Cincy, Kansas State, and WVU and throughout has been to the Final Four several times. A successful lower division head coach can definitely be successful at D-1 if the coach is a winner and is driven to be a winner.

[zipsbandman]

I think you all are forgetting that Paul Winters was a DI-A offensive coordinator and a pretty darn good one. He would be a solid hire.

[skip-zip]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying all along. I think for the most part, coaches that are buried in obscurity are there for a reason...nobody wants them. And college coaching is a pretty tight fraternity. Guys that are doing a great job tend to get noticed, and get frequent offers for better opportunities.

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

[zipsbandman]

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Then who's pursuing Matt Campbell?

[skip-zip]

Although it wasn't football, Bob Huggins came to Akron from Walsh, where he was quite successful. He went on to take Akron to our first NCAA Tournament appearance in our D-1 era. Then he moved on to Cincy, Kansas State, and WVU and throughout has been to the Final Four several times. A successful lower division head coach can definitely be successful at D-1 if the coach is a winner and is driven to be a winner.

No. He was an assistant coach at Central Florida right before coming here. He also had served as an assistant at Ohio State and West Virginia early in his career.

[Doug Snyder]

I'll bet Winters team never kicked off twice in the same game.

The game they won on Saturday was high scoring. I think they actually kicked off more than twice

[Doug Snyder]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying all along. I think for the most part, coaches that are buried in obscurity are there for a reason...nobody wants them. And college coaching is a pretty tight fraternity. Guys that are doing a great job tend to get noticed, and get frequent offers for better opportunities.

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Winters is black and has that working against him at the D1 level. Historicly, black coaches have had a difficult time getting HC opportuunities in DI. That does not mean just because Winters is balck that he is being overlooked...but the simple facts are that he probably has had fewer opportunities

Here is a question for you. How many black HCs are there in D1 and how many have been considered for the open positions over the last 3 years??

[Zipgrad01]

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

Let's see...

Tressel played at Baldwin-Wallace, coached at D2 Akron, before moving on to D1 Miami, Syracuse and Ohio State then back down to 1AA at Youngstown State then back up to 1A and Ohio State. If anyone has worked himself up it has been Jim. This alone debunks your theory on moving up. Kelly at Notre Dame is another strong example.

Miles played at Michigan, worked in private business for 5 years then went back to Michigan as a GA. He later coached at Colorado, back to Michigan, then to Oklahoma State, to the NFL with the Cowboys, back to Oklahoma State and then to LSU. Miles is a silver spoon guy who had big names blocking for him, but who has also done a great job everywhere he has been.

Saban is the son of a Coaching Legend and the key protege to Bill Billichek, played at Can't State, coached at Syracuse, West Virginia, Ohio State, Navy, Michigan State, Houston Oilers, Toledo, Cleveland Browns, Michigan State, LSU, Miami Dolphins, and Alabama.

Not sure I follow your logic - can you please elaborate?

Really? What did you say that debunks anything that I said? Typically a good coach makes a progression through the ranks. The guys you all mentioned made progressions in a particular capacity to become the coaches that they are. Paul Winters has done what?.....D1 coordinator, D2 coach for 8 or so years and......what?

[Zipgrad01]

I'd be extremely hesitant to hire a D-III HC to take over a D-I program (MUC's Kehres) largely because of the necessity of handling scholarships. Not that a D-III coach couldn't learn quickly, but, none-the-less, I'm tired of UA coaches learning on the job.

However, what's the big deal about hiring a D-II HC as opposed to a D-IAA (FCS ) coach? Football is football, right? Just because the athlets are bigger/faster/stronger @ the D-I level than they are @ the D-II level, the strategy of the game is the same, right? The D-III & D-II players all know the game just as well as the D-I players. The playbooks are just as lengthy and complicated. The defensive schemes just as complex.

Thus, with Paul Winters already having extensive experience recruiting D-I caliber players (being able to evaluate D-I talent), I don't see any risk at all in this hire.

For those that played football at a higher level, or understand the X's & O's better than I do, what am I missing? Anything?

False. Coaching is just like playing. The cream of the crop rises up through the higher ranks. There is a reason guys like Les Miles, Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, etc...are where they are. The same thing goes for NCAA coaches moving up to the NFL and failing. Every level is different and you can't always predict success at one level to the next.

Thank you. This is what I have been saying all along. I think for the most part, coaches that are buried in obscurity are there for a reason...nobody wants them. And college coaching is a pretty tight fraternity. Guys that are doing a great job tend to get noticed, and get frequent offers for better opportunities.

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Winters is black and has that working against him at the D1 level. Historicly, black coaches have had a difficult time getting HC opportuunities in DI. That does not mean just because Winters is balck that he is being overlooked...but the simple facts are that he probably has had fewer opportunities

Here is a question for you. How many black HCs are there in D1 and how many have been considered for the open positions over the last 3 years??

Bullshit. I dont want to hear the race card crap.

[skip-zip]

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Then who's pursuing Matt Campbell?

Five years ago he was in graduate school. Today, he's already worked his way up to an OC for a D1-A school. Does that answer your question?

[ZachTheZip]

I would prefer Campbell over Winters.

But I would prefer Terry Bowden or Brian Polian over either of them.

[zipsbandman]

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Then who's pursuing Matt Campbell?

Five years ago he was in graduate school. Today, he's already worked his way up to an OC for a D1-A school. Does that answer your question?

That does not answer my question. Let me repeat. Who is actually showing interest in Matt Campbell as a head coach at any level of football?

[ZachTheZip]

So once again....if Winters has been pursued at any higher level.....even a I-AA school....I'd like to know about it.

Then who's pursuing Matt Campbell?

Five years ago he was in graduate school. Today, he's already worked his way up to an OC for a D1-A school. Does that answer your question?

That does not answer my question. Let me repeat. Who is actually showing interest in Matt Campbell as a head coach at any level of football?

Akron.