FBS/FCS Debate

[Spin]

They would not have won a 1-A championship, and I never said they did. Your already poor credibility suffers when you make things up that other people didn't say.

Not having credibility with you is a plus in my book. Anyway you're the one who said "YSU won a championship because they hired the right coach, not because they played in the FCS. Here'sa news flash for you: all the factors that lead to success in the FCS also work at the FBS level."

So, they would have won at any level? The same "right coach" won in FBS. All the same factors are the same, according to you. You don't acknowledge BUDGET or AVAILABLE TALENT LEVEL has anything to do with it. So if you can win an FCS title, you can also win an FBS title too, right?

In the FCS, only one team wins a championship each year, and that team doesn't get half the recognition and national publicity as any of the several dozen teams that make a lower-tier bowl game. And you can do either of those with a similar budget. So why opt for the FCS? There is no benefit.

Bottom line:

I'm looking at this as a FAN. I want to win. I want a chance at the whole thing.

You're looking at this as if winning the Mickey Mouse Bowl has all of these benefits to the university somehow.

We'll never agree.

I see FCS as a league we could never afford to build in, and even if we did, would never be invited to the title game. You see FCS as a way to gain exposure (whatever that's worth) by playing in a junior bowl game that nobody watches. Because the majority of college football fans want to see the best, the top 25, not 106th playing 202nd.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

I have absolutely no doubt that UA athletics do not make money for the university. I'm not sure where the money comes from that supports the athletics budget, but the program that is stealing and providing the worst return on "investment" is football, in the last 30 years. Nobody with intelligence confuses UA football with the big time, and I absolutely do not believe that being one of the worst programs in the country at the FBS level helps UA attract students nor does it lend any kind of prestige. Zach, you talk all kinds of garbage about exposure, and you seem utterly sure that making to the Douchbag Bowl presented by Cheerios enhances, well, something, for the universities that make it that far. Bullshit.

Besides that, wouldn't UA have to, you know, like, win some games to even be in your Bullshit dream to begin with? They don't win, so they are one of the few teams in FBS who can never actually make it to the Douchebag Bowl. They aren't even in your own arguments.

Calls FCS small time. Call it insignificant. I call it fun. I call it properly proportioned with the rest of the real world. Show me a lot 9 tailgate on a Saturday morning, prepping for a game that UA can realistically win, and I'll show you smiles. Show me 12,000 fans at the stadium to play YSU or Illinois State and I'll point to proper positioning for this program. You want big time A-Hole athletics, drive 90 minutes and watch professional football in Columbus. UA is not that, thank goodness, and it never will be. UA is big time soccer, mid-major basketball, and FCS football. It could not be clearer. You may not want to see it, but that's the way it is.

[GP1]

That has definitely happened in some places, but it’s not a proven outcome. Some studies say it does work that way, some studies say it does not. There’s the risk.”

Kind of my point. If it is happening, wouldn't someone be able to prove it? Not make an argument in favor of it, but prove the existence (there is a difference). Newton dropped an apple and proved gravity, or so the story goes. The Earth going around the Sun and not the other way is provable. There are 9,125 hours in a year. Three hours is 0.000329% of a year. Not everyone watching a football game is making a decision on where to go to school. In fact, an aging population shows that most people watching football are not making decisions on where to go to school.

It just seems counter intuitive to me that the "exposure" gained from the move to FBS football makes financial sense.

[Zips Win!]

.

One thing we can agree on is that Lot 9 rules. It's been more than a year since I was at Lot 9 for a tailgate. Imagine if the lot were full of fans, having a blast and prepping to watch an actual FUN game, maybe a win. What a novel concept!

Well, not really, kinda, sorta..

If every opponent was Illinois State, Morgan State etc., I would hand in my Zips tickets and find another hobby...

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

Well, not really, kinda, sorta..

If every opponent was Illinois State, Morgan State etc., I would hand in my Zips tickets and find another hobby...

No you wouldn't. I call bullshit. There is no prestige difference between Ball State, EMU, and the other programs in the craptacular MAC and the programs in FCS. Besides, there have been only a couple of "name" programs to visit the Info, and one of them was Indiana. Wahoo. Not. If you really cared about prestige football being played at Akron, you wouldn't be an Akron fan at all. You'd be an OSU honk. FCS is where this program belongs.

[GP1]

Well, not really, kinda, sorta..

If every opponent was Illinois State, Morgan State etc., I would hand in my Zips tickets and find another hobby...

What if the teams were those now in the Mac along with names like Houston, San Jose State, East Carolina, Marshall, etc.? Our own national division with a playoff and chance for a national championship?

[Zips Win!]

What if the teams were those now in the Mac along with names like Houston, San Jose State, East Carolina, Marshall, etc.? Our own national division with a playoff and chance for a national championship?

I have been in agreement with your position all along that at some point, the BCS teams will form a separate division and find a way to keep all the money. I am very curious to see how scheduling will shake out with the new division and how they will decide to share revenue.

Will the same format be available for the BCS-division schools to continue to schedule the non-BCS division schools? I hope not. Why move down a division and then continue to be the punching bags for the BCS schools?

And to answer your question, yes I would still follow if we are forced to a separate division. I will not if we go the FCS route, however.

UA Soccer and hoops would easily fill my void...

[Zips Win!]

No you wouldn't. I call bullshit. There is no prestige difference between Ball State, EMU, and the other programs in the craptacular MAC and the programs in FCS. Besides, there have been only a couple of "name" programs to visit the Info, and one of them was Indiana. Wahoo. Not. If you really cared about prestige football being played at Akron, you wouldn't be an Akron fan at all. You'd be an OSU honk. FCS is where this program belongs.

Baloney! Soccer and hoops would easily fill the void.

To combine threads, UA is every bit the FCS program as Faust was a terrible college football coach. But what is wrong with distancing yourself from terrible and producing a winning, prestigious MAC-program at the FBS level, even if it's not big time by your definition.

Screw OSU! I am a proud UA alum.

[GP1]

And to answer your question, yes I would still follow if we are forced to a separate division. I will not if we go the FCS

I wouldn't follow either. I don't think people on this board appreciate how good non bcs football can be. We can be a contender in a division between bcs and IAA. We have won games against bcs schools before so we have proven we can win at the highest level for at least one game. We could duplicate that level of performance on a weekly basis in an in between division. We may be down right now, but we aren't out.

[johnnyzip84]

No you wouldn't. I call bullshit. There is no prestige difference between Ball State, EMU, and the other programs in the craptacular MAC and the programs in FCS. Besides, there have been only a couple of "name" programs to visit the Info, and one of them was Indiana. Wahoo. Not. If you really cared about prestige football being played at Akron, you wouldn't be an Akron fan at all. You'd be an OSU honk. FCS is where this program belongs.

The MAC is where this program belongs, PERIOD.

Many of us seem to have forgotten those desperate, early days in D-1 (whether it was the right move or not then is water over the dam in 2012 IMHO). As an independent forced to pay Rubber Bowl guarentees to the likes of CS-Fullerton and CS-Long Beach, the somewhat shady AD at the time (Adams) had the athletic department in a financial mess (some his fault, some not) before UA finally dumped him. When the MAC FINALLY agreed to let the Zips in, it was like a lifeline had been thrown to the sinking Zips. Do you realize we would have been playing hoops in the freaking NORTHEAST Conference had the MAC not invited UA in 1992? While football success in the MAC has been spotty at best over the years, the conference is easily the most logical home given all considerations. I'm willing to follow the Zips wherever the MAC takes them. If that means the MAC drops to FCS, I'm still in. But what are the chances of that happening after 2012's unprecidented MAC football season? (answer: GP"s correct.....it ain't happening)

While our football record over the last few years has been difficult to stomach, when I consider it from a MAC viewpoint it's not the worst of situations. After all, you might as well have one of the struggling teams armed with facilities and a credible staff to fuel hope of a turnaround. It's not as if there is no hope for future UA MAC success, except among the most cynical and jaded of us. If the teams that played well this year don't fall off too much (talent remains for many, despite the coaching moves) and programs like UA improve like many of us believe, the MAC should stay pretty respectable in the near term (that's as far as anyone can see these days in college sports anyway).

I'll add this. Am I the only one who REALLY likes the fact that the MAC has a championship football game? We focus so much talk on whether playing for an FCS championship is more appealing than playing in a low-tier bowl. The opportunity to WIN your conference on the field if there for EVERY member of the MAC, every year. All we need to see is modest improvement before the Zips are playing meaningful football games within the MAC.

[you am i]

I found an article on the Freakonomics website discussing "How Much Do Football Wins Pay Off for a College?"

The site references an a scholarly research article, "The Benefits of College Athletic Success: An Application of the Propensity Score Design with Instrumental Variables," prepared for the National Bureau of Economic Research. Fortunately for me, the article is not available for free, because it sounds like a densely academic study that I have no interest in plowing through. But, the first page is available for free and it serves as an introduction to the findings of the paper.

The short takeaway from what is available for free is that (quote) "winning [football games at the FBS level] reduces acceptance rates and increases donations, applications, academic reputation, in-state enrollment, and incoming [test] scores."

So, according to this study, there is a practical benefit to playing winning college football at the FBS level. The article does not say so explicitly, but it would be safe to assume that there is no benefit to playing losing football at the FBS level (See: Akron football.)

The free part of the article only addresses the effect of winning at the FBS level, but I would assume that there is a similar, but much lesser, effect for schools competing at the lower football divisions.

[zippy5]

I'm looking at this as a FAN. I want to win. I want a chance at the whole thing.

Well if you want to call 1-AA "the whole thing," then more power to you.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

The MAC is where this program belongs, PERIOD.

Many of us seem to have forgotten those desperate, early days in D-1 (whether it was the right move or not then is water over the dam in 2012 IMHO). As an independent forced to pay Rubber Bowl guarentees to the likes of CS-Fullerton and CS-Long Beach, the somewhat shady AD at the time (Adams) had the athletic department in a financial mess (some his fault, some not) before UA finally dumped him. When the MAC FINALLY agreed to let the Zips in, it was like a lifeline had been thrown to the sinking Zips. Do you realize we would have been playing hoops in the freaking NORTHEAST Conference had the MAC not invited UA in 1992? While football success in the MAC has been spotty at best over the years, the conference is easily the most logical home given all considerations. I'm willing to follow the Zips wherever the MAC takes them. If that means the MAC drops to FCS, I'm still in. But what are the chances of that happening after 2012's unprecidented MAC football season? (answer: GP"s correct.....it ain't happening)

While our football record over the last few years has been difficult to stomach, when I consider it from a MAC viewpoint it's not the worst of situations. After all, you might as well have one of the struggling teams armed with facilities and a credible staff to fuel hope of a turnaround. It's not as if there is no hope for future UA MAC success, except among the most cynical and jaded of us. If the teams that played well this year don't fall off too much (talent remains for many, despite the coaching moves) and programs like UA improve like many of us believe, the MAC should stay pretty respectable in the near term (that's as far as anyone can see these days in college sports anyway).

I'll add this. Am I the only one who REALLY likes the fact that the MAC has a championship football game? We focus so much talk on whether playing for an FCS championship is more appealing than playing in a low-tier bowl. The opportunity to WIN your conference on the field if there for EVERY member of the MAC, every year. All we need to see is modest improvement before the Zips are playing meaningful football games within the MAC.

Man, I cannot read this post without picturing Lloyd Christmas. Sure, there's a chance that Akron football can magically turn around. There was a chance that Lloyd could end up with Mary Swanson too. So, after year 26 of losing will you be willing to admit that it's not going to happen at the FBS level for the Zips? If not 26, how about 27? Surely you would agree that it hurts the university to sport such a losing program on the corner of Spicer and Exchange, right? Potential students and locals might possibly treat an FCS program with benign neglect, even ignorance to some extent, but they absolutely treat the current failed program with disdain and scorn. Nobody likes a perennial loser, and Akron football is the absolute definition of loser in the modern FBS era. That stench deeply affects the perception, IMO, of the university and cannot be allowed to continue.

Some of you football honks need to step back and see the forest for the trees here. Every year that crappy joke of a football program stinks up the downtown it negatively impacts the entire university, and the entire city. Also, you insist, some here angrily, that Akron is about to turn the corner. There is no reason for you to insist with any credibility that is about to happen. Show me the great recruits, the momentum, the talk in coaching and recruiting circles that this program is making progress. You can't. It doesn't exist. You hope, hope, hope for a winning program but ignore decades of futility.

As far as potential conference affiliation, I would love to see the MAC dumped by Akron. Fit your conference affiliation to the best the university has to offer. Where can the BB and soccer programs find good homes? That's the place to start, not by forcing them to exist in a conference based on the home you find for your worst program.

Show me the data. Show me numbers. You talk of modest improvement. Modest improvement for UA would be what, 4 or 5 wins next year? So, a MAC program with 4 or 5 wins, no bowl game, no better recruiting picture, how is that great shakes? Will anyone really even notice an Akron program with 4 or 5 wins? The answer is no, other than lot 9 devotees, who will be there no matter what anyway. Also, there is absolutely no reason to assume the MAC will have another year like it did this year. The coaching staffs who generated many of those wins are gone, and there is every reason to assume that the MAC will become what the MAC is, a not-really-FBS conference. The MAC has had, what, 50+ years to become a major player and it never has. In the same way that Akron is about to turn the corner, is the MAC about to become a power conference too?

[Dave in Green]

..... The short takeaway from what is available for free is that (quote) "winning [football games at the FBS level] reduces acceptance rates and increases donations, applications, academic reputation, in-state enrollment, and incoming [test] scores." .....

This goes back to the part of the NYT article stating that some studies say yes, some studies say no. The missing part of this study that may or may not be buried somewhere in the part you have to pay for is whether winning in FBS football is the most cost-effective way to achieve the above results. Some schools could spend a lot of money on a winning FBS football program and only get a percentage of the investment back, and some might claim the percentage they got back was worth it. One thing that is certain is that those who are selling are always trying to convince those who are buying that they have the deal of the century.

[GP1]

As far as potential conference affiliation, I would love to see the MAC dumped by Akron. Fit your conference affiliation to the best the university has to offer. Where can the BB and soccer programs find good homes? That's the place to start, not by forcing them to exist in a conference based on the home you find for your worst program.

I'm not a big fan of the Mac, but there is strength in numbers. If we left, who would take us? We left 1Aa years ago alone, and nobody wanted us. It was a disaster.

You are going to get your wish. The bcs schools are going to break away. We will be in another division. The reason we need to stay in the Mac is because they are going to be part of a new division. Without them, we are hosed. With them we have a fighting chance with other mAClike conferences.

The thing I am most surprised about now is how fast the talk of bcs separation is happening. I thought it would take about ten years, but I can now see it happening in the next five years. Lots of changes in the near future.

[johnnyzip84]

Man, I cannot read this post without picturing Lloyd Christmas. Sure, there's a chance that Akron football can magically turn around. There was a chance that Lloyd could end up with Mary Swanson too. So, after year 26 of losing will you be willing to admit that it's not going to happen at the FBS level for the Zips? If not 26, how about 27?

I've said over and over again that it's been 26 years in D1-A, but only 3 years in D1-A with D1-A facilities and only 1 year with a D1-A staff. But you never even acknowledge the difference because it doesn't fit your argument.

Some of you football honks need to step back and see the forest for the trees here. Every year that crappy joke of a football program stinks up the downtown it negatively impacts the entire university, and the entire city. Also, you insist, some here angrily, that Akron is about to turn the corner. There is no reason for you to insist with any credibility that is about to happen. Show me the great recruits, the momentum, the talk in coaching and recruiting circles that this program is making progress. You can't. It doesn't exist. You hope, hope, hope for a winning program but ignore decades of futility.

I'll bet you really struggled with the concept of a limit in calculus. If you didn't see incremental improvement in 2012, despite the record, you suffer from gridiron blindness.

As far as potential conference affiliation, I would love to see the MAC dumped by Akron. Fit your conference affiliation to the best the university has to offer. Where can the BB and soccer programs find good homes? That's the place to start, not by forcing them to exist in a conference based on the home you find for your worst program.

Once again, you didn't read my words very carefully. I said the MAC is the most logical home for ALL UA sports.

Show me the data. Show me numbers. You talk of modest improvement. Modest improvement for UA would be what, 4 or 5 wins next year? So, a MAC program with 4 or 5 wins, no bowl game, no better recruiting picture, how is that great shakes? Will anyone really even notice an Akron program with 4 or 5 wins? The answer is no, other than lot 9 devotees, who will be there no matter what anyway. Also, there is absolutely no reason to assume the MAC will have another year like it did this year. The coaching staffs who generated many of those wins are gone, and there is every reason to assume that the MAC will become what the MAC is, a not-really-FBS conference. The MAC has had, what, 50+ years to become a major player and it never has. In the same way that Akron is about to turn the corner, is the MAC about to become a power conference too?

What class are Jordan Lynch, Archer, Nix, Fluevellen, etc in? Don't put words in my mouth. Never said the MAC was going to be a power. I only said it was improving and makes for a repesctable home for UA sports, including football.

[K92]

I agree with JZ84. The Zips belong in the MAC. Surely more than the two of us actually like this conference, no?

The only way I could support Zips D1-AA football is if the entire MAC went there together as a conference. I have absolutely no interest in the MVC at all. I wouldn't care if they ran the table every year in that league.

FCS football moves the needle as much as the new USFL does. Zero.

[Spin]

The MAC is where this program belongs, PERIOD.

And the MAC belongs in the I-AA.

On every level. Right down to the NCAA attendance requirements

How long are you guys going to skate around that basic fact???

[Spin]

I've said over and over again that it's been 26 years in D1-A, but only 3 years in D1-A with D1-A facilities

And those facilities have boosted attendance to minimum D1-A standards, right?

[Dave in Green]

It's 2013. Anyone change their minds?

Happy New Year!

[GoZips]

And the MAC belongs in the I-AA.

On every level. Right down to the NCAA attendance requirements

How long are you guys going to skate around that basic fact???

Your point of view is myopic to say the least. I get the impression that you are actually a Buckeye fan lobbying for the

whole pie (attendance, sales, attention, etc.) for the wonks in Cowtown.

The "basic fact" is that there is always a top dog and an underdog in all scenarios. If you are so set on backing the

perennial winner then by all means throw your loyalties to Cowtown State.

The current system, while far from perfect is much more desirable than a super group of fifty, then forty, then twenty

teams while all the other programs become less and less.

[Zipmeister]

Your point of view is myopic to say the least. I get the impression that you are actually a Buckeye fan lobbying for the

whole pie (attendance, sales, attention, etc.) for the wonks in Cowtown.

The "basic fact" is that there is always a top dog and an underdog in all scenarios. If you are so set on backing the

perennial winner then by all means throw your loyalties to Cowtown State.

The current system, while far from perfect is much more desirable than a super group of fifty, then forty, then twenty

teams while all the other programs become less and less.

Ya think?

At least Equins is up front about being a YSU fan.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

Ya think?

At least Equins is up front about being a YSU fan.

OK, so this is how it goes with you ZN football dorks then huh? Anyone who would wish for a different path, a path to success, for UA football must be some sort of closet OSU fan? Seriously? I guess you don't read or comprehend well, or you're just dedicated to maintaining the path of a failed program for another quarter century.

I don't understand what is wrong with you people. I recently said here that I considered some of the status quo posters here to be the battered, beaten wives of college football. Good gawd what a bunch of dead enders.

[Spin]

Your point of view is myopic to say the least. I get the impression that you are actually a Buckeye fan lobbying for the

whole pie (attendance, sales, attention, etc.) for the wonks in Cowtown.

The "basic fact" is that there is always a top dog and an underdog in all scenarios. If you are so set on backing the

perennial winner then by all means throw your loyalties to Cowtown State.

The current system, while far from perfect is much more desirable than a super group of fifty, then forty, then twenty

teams while all the other programs become less and less.

That makes about as much sense as claiming I'm a Massillon fan because I want Doylestown to stay in Division IV. Is that the only way you could figure out to skate around the attendance issue? The legacy school issue? The budget issue? You guys got NOTHING on any of that, so you start personal attacks. And don't forget all the notoriety the University gets for being one of the worst football teams in history. Real positive shit there...

"I don't like minor league baseball, so I want the Aeros to struggle against major league teams forever and draw a couple thousand people to appease my infatuation with being 'Big Time'.".

[GoZips]

OK, so this is how it goes with you ZN football dorks then huh? Anyone who would wish for a different path, a path to success, for UA football must be some sort of closet OSU fan? Seriously? I guess you don't read or comprehend well, or you're just dedicated to maintaining the path of a failed program for another quarter century.

I don't understand what is wrong with you people. I recently said here that I considered some of the status quo posters here to be the battered, beaten wives of college football. Good gawd what a bunch of dead enders.

I am not quite sure of just what you think you are talking about.

My point in an earlier post was that the complainer was one of a number of people who have a distorted notion that Akron

can not compete in the big boy world of Division I-A sports. Or, at least not in football. So, they continually whine

that Akron should drop down to a lower level of competition where they might be more successful in the number

of wins total.

This is certainly lame thinking if there is even any thinking occurring at all. A decision and commitment to I-A (no, I will

not call it FBS or CBS, or even FOX). At the corner of West Exchange and Brown streets stands a 60 million dollar investment

in upper echelon football. When that stadium was built it was to correct the neglect and short sightedness of many people

who actually originally whined about moving up from Division III sports back in the 1960's.

This University is rightfully committed to be a prime player in college sports. There is strong evidence to support this

claim. Does the 2010 National Championship in men's soccer not indicate this commitment? Does the ten year

contract to keep Coach Dambrot here not indicate the commitment to Div. I-A sports?

I realize that you and many others lack vision or the drive to compete. Well, football is no nanny state. We have to

invest in success. Whining, bickering, acting childish and suggesting foolish, childish ideas or throwing tantrums is not going

to change the plan.

The reality of the Akron football program was that it was repeatedly put in the hands of "dreamers". That is, men who

talked a good game, but had no clue as how to accomplish the goal of being a winner.

Gerry Faust was brought in to take the program to the big boy level. That he succeeded (not failed) with the crap facilities

and limited resources is a testament to his personal love of football. This University and its fans are indebted to him.

Forget the morons who continually bash Coach Faust. Their own inabilities overwhelm their sorry views. Gerry was a

success. He got the ball rolling. He had a plan and the right contacts.

The difficulty lay in hiring coaches who lacked the experience to move the program forward. Lee Owens was a novice

who has since learned his craft. He is now successful coaching at Ashland University. JD Brookart was a disaster. He

had a blank resume and no coaching experience of any kind. He was not prepared to be a head coach at this level.

Sadly, when Akron hired a green horn Athletic Director he had to hire a new head football coach. Not having a solid

network of other ADs and friends to ask advice from he hired his friend who had the same empty sheet resume that

JD once possessed. Worse, Ianello is an elitest, snob who acted as though being in Akron was beneath him.

You add up the years since Faust and you have a long stretch of failure. Last year some wisdom was granted to heads

of this estate and they hired an experienced and well qualified football coach. Now, this staff only needs the time and

resources to deliver what everyone is clamoring for.

Going backwards is rarely the answer. List for me all the battles and wars won by retreating. In the US Civil War General

George McClelland nearly retreated the Army of the Potomac into a complete defeat. You would be speaking with a

Southern accent and eating tons of fried chicken today if Lincoln had not replaced him.

The direction is to stay the course. Terry Bowden has the helm and he deserves our support. If you look up you can see

a bright light. It is a new day. I love silly cliches. So, don't be a whiny twit; grow some nads and support the Zips.