FBS/FCS Debate

[UAZipster0305]

There is no benefit to the FCS. Not financially, not in fan support, alumni interest, university reputation, competitiveness, nothing.

You are deluded if you think otherwise.

For someone interested in watching local, competitive college football, I disagree. However, for the casual alumni and Joe Akron, a drop down would just reinforce long held (mis)interpretations of the niche of UA locally, regionally, and nationally.

[ZachTheZip]

For someone interested in watching local, competitive college football, I disagree. However, for the casual alumni and Joe Akron, a drop down would just reinforce long held (mis)interpretations of the niche of UA locally, regionally, and nationally.

Being interested in "local, competitive college football" has nothing to do with what level the competition is at, right? Then why should a move to FCS make a difference to you? Do you think that by removing 22 scholarships and all the TV and bowl revenue used to pay for the program and the TV appearances that help us recruit beyond just the local OSU rejects that we would be more competitive?

[UAZipster0305]

Being interested in "local, competitive college football" has nothing to do with what level the competition is at, right? Then why should a move to FCS make a difference to you? Do you think that by removing 22 scholarships and all the TV and bowl revenue used to pay for the program and the TV appearances that help us recruit beyond just the local OSU rejects that we would be more competitive?

Because for the past 4 years and throughout most of our tenure in D-1A, Akron has not seen competitive college football.

And I don't know what TV and bowl revenue you're referring to...in the MAC both are at a minimum with this year being an exception because NIU made the Orange Bowl. That has NEVER happened before for this conference and judging by its cyclic performance relative to other conferences, I wouldn't count on it happening again anytime soon. Had a few more programs like OSU and PSU been eligible or the Big East circumstance been different, NIU NEVER would have had this opportunity either.

We don't get local OSU rejects...Pitt does. We get Pitt rejects. Like it or not, that's the hierarchy.

[ZachTheZip]

Because for the past 4 years and throughout most of our tenure in D-1A, Akron has not seen competitive college football.

And I don't know what TV and bowl revenue you're referring to...in the MAC both are at a minimum with this year being an exception because NIU made the Orange Bowl. That has NEVER happened before for this conference and judging by its cyclic performance relative to other conferences, I wouldn't count on it happening again anytime soon. Had a few more programs like OSU and PSU been eligible or the Big East circumstance been different, NIU NEVER would have had this opportunity either.

We don't get local OSU rejects...Pitt does. We get Pitt rejects. Like it or not, that's the hierarchy.

So what makes you think that we would have been competitive in the FCS? By dropping down, the top 22 players will transfer out and look for a place to play in the FBS. Can you even imagine how horrid we would be if all the starters were suddenly gone?

As the TV and bowl revenue I'm talking about added up to about $750k a year before the Orange Bowl this year.

[akzipper]

There is no benefit to the FCS. Not financially, not in fan support, alumni interest, university reputation, competitiveness, nothing.

You are deluded if you think otherwise.

Exactly. You know I was frustrated after the soccer team lost in the tournament this year. Why not move them down to division 2? We'd have a better change of winning a national championship next year. Same with basketball! We weren't able to win the MAC last year, do you think we can move OAC would be an easier conference to win? I know it's division 3, but people in Akron would really support some good local competition! and a plus we wouldn't need to build a new arena, just play games at the Rec. Take the easy way out in life right?

Use a hypothetical real world analogy....What is better going to Harvard or going to Can't State? Now think about it. Harvard is one of the best schools in the world, and it's very difficult to move up to the top of the class. But at Can't it would be much easier to be at the top.

[UAZipster0305]

So what makes you think that we would have been competitive in the FCS? By dropping down, the top 22 players will transfer out and look for a place to play in the FBS. Can you even imagine how horrid we would be if all the starters were suddenly gone?

As the TV and bowl revenue I'm talking about added up to about $750k a year before the Orange Bowl this year.

Dropping to 1-AA would save far more than $750,000 in reduced operating costs, lower coaches' salaries, and fewer/no scholarships. But no, I'm not an advocate for dropping down. Staying just doesn't have all the benefits that most people think.

[ZachTheZip]

Dropping to 1-AA would save far more than $750,000 in reduced operating costs, lower coaches' salaries, and fewer/no scholarships.

How do we save on operating costs? It costs the same to run Infocision no matter what level we play at, and we will have to spend way more on travel than we do in the MAC.

Our coaching salaries are not all that much higher than the upper FCS, which I presume is the level we would be shooting for competition-wise. In 2010, Delaware's coach made $310k and James Madison's coach made $248k in base salary.

22 scholarships at $30k per year is $660k.

FCS travel costs are far higher than in the MAC. There is no FCS conference that Akron could join without having to fly more often than taking a bus, while we can bus to almost every MAC school.

[akzipper]

The Browns have yet to do anything since coming back to the NFL in 1999. If they moved to the Arena league maybe we can bring a championship to Cleveland! YES!

[GP1]

The enthusiasm for this among fans (and especially casual ones) would be huge and the ticket price adjusted accordingly by supply and demand. However, no AD or President from Alabama or OSU is going to want to compromise their shot at a playoff or National Championship game appearance for the sake of an OOC / early season big name game with little meaning.

A super conference with teams required to only play one another and a playoff will take cupcake September out of the picture for these teams. A playoff makes going undefeated much less critical.

[GP1]

I have a serious question here.

(Say all non-aq teams form a new division between d1a and d1aa. We'll call it d1a/2 for arguements sake)

So what happens to the the AQ's If they grant the tv god's their wish and only play each other? Remember, not every AQ team is an Alabama or OSU. I'm sure Arizona -v- Indiana would be a huge draw. What happens when a fair amount of them are now left w/ losing records come bowl season and fans have to adjust to losing more games? In the end, you only diminish the precieved dominance of those conferences overall, and end up exaserbating their own second class programs who would then need to be booted (Duke, Wa St. etc.... i've been over this) Let's not forget the biggest programs are already more than willing to skip over lower AQ's and non-aq's to play d1aa teams; even the bottom feeders, and no one is forcing their hand. He*k FloridaST played two of em' this year and they still poop on NIU's schedule!

Better yet, how do the new d1a/2 teams feel about not playing those d1a teams anymore? Do the d1a/2 teams exclude the d1a and d1aa teams as well?

Most importantly, if we continue to play d1a teams, and now find ourselves absolutely excluded from the big bowls/championship how is that better for us? Yeeeaaahhh, we had an amazing 2018, could've gone to a big bowl and had an experience of a lifetime, but instead we're playing for the Grey cup! Whoohoo!!! NIU's 2012 team would be so proud, and those Boisie STate teams sure couldn't compete anyways....

No flame here, I totally respect your posts on here! I guess I just see the darker side and end game of the money game.

The are good questions and easy to answer. When the super conference is complete, the bottom dwellers in those leagues will continue to be bottom dwellers unless they can manipulate scheduling to require more difficult schedules after a good season.

When the super conference comes around, there will be no more bowls. Every division will have a playoff.

How people feel about anything will become irrelevant when the super conference is created. It will be a shameless exercise in money grabbing. ADs for the non super conference schools will have to find ways to make money other than whoring out their teams for a couple of games a year.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

How do we save on operating costs? It costs the same to run Infocision no matter what level we play at, and we will have to spend way more on travel than we do in the MAC.

Our coaching salaries are not all that much higher than the upper FCS, which I presume is the level we would be shooting for competition-wise. In 2010, Delaware's coach made $310k and James Madison's coach made $248k in base salary.

22 scholarships at $30k per year is $660k.

FCS travel costs are far higher than in the MAC. There is no FCS conference that Akron could join without having to fly more often than taking a bus, while we can bus to almost every MAC school.

So, because it doesn't cost all that much more to be horrible, moribund, among the very worst programs in the country in FBS, we should remain there?

[K92]

Santa says it's not nice to make nasty posts during the holidays.

Sorry Santa.

[akzipper]

FCS....

Argument over...Go Zips!

[K92]

Santa says it's not nice to make nasty posts during the holidays.

Sorry Santa.

[Zips Win!]

LOVE the discussion! First to GoZips, any university insiders who believe that UA is attractive to a conference more substantial than the MAC, when we are talking football, are nuts. There is no measure which supports that this football program would appeal, well, to anyone. I could see UA ending in some tweener conference, but find it very interesting, if illogical, that one of the main arguments against dropping down is that the Zips might be no more competitive in, say, the MVC, than they are in the MAC. There is no logic in that assertion. If the Zips couldn't compete successfully in the MVC, then there can be no reasonable argument that they should remain in FBS.

UA is, at its core, a community asset, a long-time commuter school. I fully understand, and embrace, the vision of UA as a major state university. However, when it comes to football, the program just hasn't held up its part of the bargain. Most of the other athletic programs have at least pulled their weight when it comes to being solid citizens, and a couple of them are over achievers. Football, on the other hand, for reasons we'll argue forever, has never been able to "actually" become a true D-1/FBS program. Look at the recruiting classes, look at the schools that players pass UA up for, look at the crowds at the stadium, look at revenue (not) generated, look at respect garnered by other programs and UA's ability to attract home and aways. There is absolutely no measure that shows UA to be an "actual" FBS program. Now, to toss some salt into the wound, consider the present recruiting situation. If TB cannot recruit at UA, turn the lights off. I realize it's still early, but show me the beef. Where are "steals"? Where are the players who are saying they're looking seriously at Akron this off season? Where are JUCO players lining up to join the progrum? There's no more buzz this offseason than any other at Akron. Recruits see UA for what it is: the place to go when all other options are off the table, for whatever reason. They, and their coaches, know that it's not a genuine FBS program, and if they have any other viable options they aren't joining the Akron program.

I would love to see UA become FCS and prepare for the next jumble of college football. Become what you really already are UA. You currently recruit tweeners, guys who aren't genuine D-1 prospects, and then they get beaten and demoralized until they either become injured, leave the program or "make it" to graduation. How about recruiting those same players, tell them the truth, which is that they are FCS players and they are going to play an FCS schedule and win some damned games and have a blast. Embrace the community like the old days of Acme Zip. Bring in the locals who will pay to watch an FCS team that knows how to win and how to entertain.

Another point about Joe Akron. The very casual fan only knows what they see on TV. I think that for many, likely most, locals, there is no "attendance premium" placed on, say, any MAC school over, say, an MVC or other FCS program. No matter what football nerds think, Joe Akron, fan of the Big Ten, doesn't think of Northern Illinois as "high quality" football. Tell him that he can choose to watch Ball State or Illinois State, he'll shrug his shoulders and wonder whether there's a Big Ten game he can catch on the tube instead.

It's time to become the Akron Aeros. Don't continue the con any longer. This was NEVER really an FBS program.

Why don't you take DFG and Gozips and go start your own board!

[K92]

[quote name='ZachTheZip' date='Dec 21 2012, 09:35 PM' post='192100'

22 scholarships at $30k per year is $660k.

Those are not hard dollars. Those are hypothetical dollars. Whether or not those dollars are comped is irrelevant.

[ZachTheZip]

So, because it doesn't cost all that much more to be horrible, moribund, among the very worst programs in the country in FBS, we should remain there?

Better than being horrible, moribund, and among the very worst programs in the FCS.

Seriously, what makes you think we would become a contender in the FCS? Losing is losing. it's a cultural thing, and that has to change or else we won't compete at any level. And changing that culture can happen at any level, even the FBS.

[johnnyzip84]

Andy Staples of CNNSI with historical perspective on some of the issues we're discussing.

[Wally B]

The are good questions and easy to answer. When the super conference is complete, the bottom dwellers in those leagues will continue to be bottom dwellers unless they can manipulate scheduling to require more difficult schedules after a good season.

When the super conference comes around, there will be no more bowls. Every division will have a playoff.

How people feel about anything will become irrelevant when the super conference is created. It will be a shameless exercise in money grabbing. ADs for the non super conference schools will have to find ways to make money other than whoring out their teams for a couple of games a year.

I see what you're saying here, but in a way we sorta already have that. D1a is already split between AQ and non-AQ. Yet AQ programs, including dominant ones continue to schedule d1aa teams, often terrible ones; and bypass the lure of hoarding your purported money games. To be honest, we may occasionally whore ourselves out, but the johns are more than willing to pay instead of sharing a bed with their partner !

In a sense, i see no reason to drop to d1aa since we are already in a second tier position. If a super conference is created we wont be able to do much of anything about it. But droping to a potential third tier just to make us think we are droping to a second tier now dosen't pass muster. In fact, the potential of a middle division is clearly evident in all of the FCS programs scrambling to join the likes of the SBC, CUSA, and nBE, and UMass' entry into the MAC itself.

I spent 10 years in the Carolina's, and Wake is as arrogant as they come. Yet nobody is suggesting they drop out of the ACC because they rarely compete in ACC fb, and can not maintain their mb program to Duke or UNC-ch's standards. Despite contentions to the contrary, Wake will milk the ACC cow for all its worth until it's kicked out, or a better scenario emerges, much like Vandy in the SEC. There will always be better non-aq programs than Wake, but that's life, and it's not fair.

BTW - Next time you're up that way and pass the Akron Dr. exit; stop off at Finnegan's Wake and have a pint for me

[Wally B]

FCS....

Argument over...Go Zips!

+1,000,000

[RACER]

bowden took over the worst team in d-1.while we did not win any more games at least we were competitve in most of them.when he took over we only had three weeks left to sign players.if in five years we are still at the bottom of d-1

then maybe we should drop down.i already saw a big improvment from coach I.the mills kid from mckinley said the only reason he went to akron was because of bowden.im pretty sure that was the same case with most of the kids he signed.

[Dave in Green]

Why don't you take DFG and Gozips and go start your own board!

And a Merry Christmas to you, too.

[Spin]

I still don't understand why we would have a better chance for success at a lower level than 1-A? I contend we would be of equivalent record at whatever level we sunk to.

Interesting question, the best direct comparison is the Sagarin Ratings http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbc12.htm

Someone mentioned the MVC (infatuated with North and South Dakota I guess), in the ratings it is a mirror image of the MAC. Which proves the whole MAC belongs in D1A.

Look at another conference with regional matchups the Northeast (Duquesne, Robert Morris) Akron would be a top three program.

Fact is several MAC schools should drop (according to NCAA attendance standards if not performance) and a new conference could be formed with these programs that are currently playing conference games hundreds or thousands of miles away. Don't tell me fans would rather watch Central Michigan than Youngstown State, Dayton, and Duquesne. The hockey team draws just as well when Duq and Robert Morris and IUP visit as they do for Cincinnati and Ohio and Toledo.

You just gotta win.

And the debate is laughable anyhow. If TW would have hired a good coach instead making his own call with Ianello, we'd be winning football games and no one would care about 1-AA (no amount of marketing will ever stop me from calling it what it is). We now have a good coach. The wins will come.

When Bowden stops making rookie mistakes (eating his own clock, calling TO when the other team can't call an audible) I'll get excited about the current staff.

I don't know if there could ever be enough marketing to make me excited about the NIT-level bowl games we aspire to someday qualify for.

[Dr Z]

I don't know if there could ever be enough marketing to make me excited about the NIT-level bowl games we aspire to someday qualify for.

But you would be excited dropping down a division and playing Div II teams?

[Lee Adams]

I hate an either/or discussion.

Change is going to happen and I don't see it as an FCS vs. FBS debate. At some point, a number of schools are going to decide they would like their own super division and those of us at the non-BCS level are going to stuck with our peckers in our hands. The question then will be I-AA or something in between I-AA and whatever super division is created. The handwriting is on the walls and it's going to happen at some point.

We have talked about this scenario before. Maybe its the labels(FBS,FCS I-AA D-II etc etc) that get some people unhinged. So try to ignore the labels and what they connote. Think more in terms of what Akron can reasonably and consistently accomplish over time in football. Can it be competetive with the 'big' programs? No. Can it be consistently competetive with 'MAC' level schools? We will find out in the next couple of years. Do they want to play for a place in a championship tourney or the chance to go to a lower level bowl game?

I have never liked the idea of playing sacrifice games for $$$. The players get beat up and in the current set up accomplishes little except to bring in the heretofore mentioned $$$. I know $$$ is needed to run the program. But a competetive program will bring in $$$ also.

I would love to see the conferences like the MAC and others get separated from the 'big' boys. I would love to see the program compete for a conference championship and have the opportunity to get in to a playoff tourney. Use whatever label you want. But,play at whatever level where the program can sustain competetiveness.