A New Arena

[MDZip]

a scaled down verson of that would eliminate the wall anyway

Also, would anyone happen to have the dimensions of one stadium seat?

A typical stadium seat is between 16-18 inches.

[Dave in Green]

I just did a quick internet search, and 18 inches appears to be the bare minimum for modern arena/stadium seats, with 19-21 inches considered to be more comfortable for typical American-size bodies. I also found a story on stadiums and arenas that gives a really good analysis of seating arrangements for a modern arena in plain English.

[GP1]

I just did a quick internet search, and 18 inches appears to be the bare minimum for modern arena/stadium seats, with 19-21 inches considered to be more comfortable for typical American-size bodies. I also found a story on stadiums and arenas that gives a really good analysis of seating arrangements for a modern arena in plain English.

There is actually building code written around things like this. Somewhere in the IBC, there is written the minimum size for a stadium seat.

This is a true story. Some years ago now, Auburn made some changes to their football stadium and part of that was repainting the numbers on the benches. As code had changed, they were required to paint to code. The American ass had gotten so big since the previous painting they had to make the numbers further apart costing them seats in their stadium. Another meaningless fact brought to you by The Great GP1.

[zen]

No concourse/mezzanine areas overlooking the court or cutting into one of the sides or ends. It contributes to an open/empty feeling, even when the seats are packed. Same with a wall on one end like the Wolstein Center, or low seating angles with a single level like NIU's arena. Same with an extremely high ceiling like Ohio's Convo. They all feel way too open, too airy, and empty even with a sellout crowd. I want opponents to see a wall of fans in every direction, going up at a steep angle, all the way into the rafters.

[Dave in Green]

Don't know how many of you read the story on stadiums and arenas I linked to in my previous post, but there were some really important points in there that are worthy of consideration in trying to come up with the perfect arena for the Zips. First, the following:

Larger venues most often feature an upper seating bowl or balcony in addition to the lower bowl. Traditionally, the goal when designing arenas with multiple seating decks is to locate the majority of the seats in the lower level. This is significant, because in order to maintain optimal views, the rake of the upper bowl must be steeper than that in the lower. Since all patrons desire to be close to the action, the fewer the number of seats in the steeper upper deck, the better.

I never understood why the pitch of lower level seating was less than upper level seating. But apparently it's mandatory for good viewing. So if we insist on both lower and upper level seating, we will be stuck with a shallower pitch on the lower level, which I think loses the intimidation factor of having more of the crowd "on top" of the court. Then there's the following:

In smaller arenas (5,000 to 7,000 seats), the suites and their private concourse can be located at the top of the seating bowl. At this size and in this configuration, the suites are close enough to the action to still be considered premium locations, while not adversely affecting sightlines within the main seating bowl or the proximity of standard seats to the event floor.

Taking the above with the previous point, it means that the maximum capacity of a single level arena with steep pitch seating and suites at the top is 7,000. Any larger capacity and you have to go to two levels, with the lower level having shallower seating pitch and suites in the middle.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips. It adds 1,500 seats to the current capacity at the JAR, plus maybe another 500 in suite capacity for a total of 7,500 or so. Can anyone recall if any of the many existing arenas we've discussed over the years match these parameters? If so, I'd sure like to take a more detailed look at photos.

[powerofx]

Don't know how many of you read the story on stadiums and arenas I linked to in my previous post, but there were some really important points in there that are worthy of consideration in trying to come up with the perfect arena for the Zips. First, the following:

Larger venues most often feature an upper seating bowl or balcony in addition to the lower bowl. Traditionally, the goal when designing arenas with multiple seating decks is to locate the majority of the seats in the lower level. This is significant, because in order to maintain optimal views, the rake of the upper bowl must be steeper than that in the lower. Since all patrons desire to be close to the action, the fewer the number of seats in the steeper upper deck, the better.

I never understood why the pitch of lower level seating was less than upper level seating. But apparently it's mandatory for good viewing. So if we insist on both lower and upper level seating, we will be stuck with a shallower pitch on the lower level, which I think loses the intimidation factor of having more of the crowd "on top" of the court. Then there's the following:

In smaller arenas (5,000 to 7,000 seats), the suites and their private concourse can be located at the top of the seating bowl. At this size and in this configuration, the suites are close enough to the action to still be considered premium locations, while not adversely affecting sightlines within the main seating bowl or the proximity of standard seats to the event floor.

Taking the above with the previous point, it means that the maximum capacity of a single level arena with steep pitch seating and suites at the top is 7,000. Any larger capacity and you have to go to two levels, with the lower level having shallower seating pitch and suites in the middle.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips. It adds 1,500 seats to the current capacity at the JAR, plus maybe another 500 in suite capacity for a total of 7,500 or so. Can anyone recall if any of the many existing arenas we've discussed over the years match these parameters? If so, I'd sure like to take a more detailed look at photos.

So what you want is UCF without the upper deck. Lower bowl holds 7k with double level of suites on one side. The other three sides have an upper deck with 3k seats. Remove the opper deck seats, keep the suites...there you go.

[ZachTheZip]

Don't know how many of you read the story on stadiums and arenas I linked to in my previous post, but there were some really important points in there that are worthy of consideration in trying to come up with the perfect arena for the Zips. First, the following:

Larger venues most often feature an upper seating bowl or balcony in addition to the lower bowl. Traditionally, the goal when designing arenas with multiple seating decks is to locate the majority of the seats in the lower level. This is significant, because in order to maintain optimal views, the rake of the upper bowl must be steeper than that in the lower. Since all patrons desire to be close to the action, the fewer the number of seats in the steeper upper deck, the better.

I never understood why the pitch of lower level seating was less than upper level seating. But apparently it's mandatory for good viewing. So if we insist on both lower and upper level seating, we will be stuck with a shallower pitch on the lower level, which I think loses the intimidation factor of having more of the crowd "on top" of the court. Then there's the following:

In smaller arenas (5,000 to 7,000 seats), the suites and their private concourse can be located at the top of the seating bowl. At this size and in this configuration, the suites are close enough to the action to still be considered premium locations, while not adversely affecting sightlines within the main seating bowl or the proximity of standard seats to the event floor.

Taking the above with the previous point, it means that the maximum capacity of a single level arena with steep pitch seating and suites at the top is 7,000. Any larger capacity and you have to go to two levels, with the lower level having shallower seating pitch and suites in the middle.

Taking all of the above into consideration, I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips. It adds 1,500 seats to the current capacity at the JAR, plus maybe another 500 in suite capacity for a total of 7,500 or so. Can anyone recall if any of the many existing arenas we've discussed over the years match these parameters? If so, I'd sure like to take a more detailed look at photos.

Look at pictures of arenas with a seating arangement of a single tier. The seating angles are always shallow. The lower seats are at a low angle regardless of how many tiers you have, but with a single tier the upper seats are at the same low angle as the lower ones.

[Dave in Green]

I found a great photo of a 7,200-seat (for basketball) single level arena with steeply raked seating and suites at the top. But you have to use a little imagination for a basketball-optimized arena because Agganis Arena at Boston University is a multipurpose arena for hockey and concerts as well as basketball, so it's a bowl at only one end and open at the other. In the photo you are looking from the bowl end to the open end at a concert stage. Be sure to view the full image and imagine something like this with bowls at both ends.

[ZachTheZip]

I found a great photo of a 7,200-seat (for basketball) single level arena with steeply raked seating and suites at the top. But you have to use a little imagination for a basketball-optimized arena because Agganis Arena at Boston University is a multipurpose arena for hockey and concerts as well as basketball, so it's a bowl at only one end and open at the other. In the photo you are looking from the bowl end to the open end at a concert stage. Be sure to view the full image and imagine something like this with bowls at both ends.

If that was basketball-only, the seating angle would be lower because you would stretch the seats toward the court.

[Blue & Gold]

I much prefer two tiers with a loges level sandwiched in the middle. IMHO it just gives an arena more of a big-time feel.

[Dave in Green]

@ZachTheZip, maybe I'm missing something, but I see no reason to limit single level arena seating to a shallow rake when a steeper rake provides less obstructed viewing. When I sit in the lower level of the JAR, my view of the court is obstructed by people sitting in front of me due to the shallow rake of the seating. When I sit in the upper level, I can see the whole court since people sitting in front of me don't obstruct my view because of the steeper rake. The rake doesn't need to be excessive, just enough to be able to comfortably see over the heads of people sitting in front of you.

[ZachTheZip]

@ZachTheZip, maybe I'm missing something, but I see no reason to limit single level arena seating to a shallow rake when a steeper rake provides less obstructed viewing.

Accessibility for a season ticket base that's 80% octogenarians.

[odhgibo]

Taking all of the above into consideration, I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips. It adds 1,500 seats to the current capacity at the JAR, plus maybe another 500 in suite capacity for a total of 7,500 or so. Can anyone recall if any of the many existing arenas we've discussed over the years match these parameters? If so, I'd sure like to take a more detailed look at photos.

So you want a half-size (New Mexico) Pit?

[ksu sucks]

Accessibility for a season ticket base that's 80% octogenarians.

I've learned to be patient with the lower reserve seating. Before every game I catch myself complaining about the number of no-shows down there, just to be pleasantly surprised as 50 or so elderly women fill up the lower bowl 5 minutes before tip.

[odhgibo]

Taking all of the above into consideration, I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips.

If the arena is to be on-campus and dedicated to basketball, I for one (and I'm probably in the minority) am against the idea of suites in a 7000-8000 seat venue.

I'm not opposed to a club level, however. This could be accomplished with 4-8 rows that overhang part of the lower bowl, with the top of the aisles opening to dedicated concessions and restrooms. For this type of arrangement, envision the north and east ends of Nationwide Arena, which is a far nicer execution of this concept than what was done at the Q.

Like suites, a club level gives a sense exclusivity to those willing to pay for it. However, it also provides benefits not available with suites:

• because small groups are not silo-ed into suites, involvement in the game increases (i.e., less time spent in the suite),
  
• better viewing angles than top-of-bowl suites,
  
• ability for an average joe or someone wanting to bring a business colleague but who can't afford a season commitment to a suite to splurge occasionally for premium seating,
  
• more tiers for pricing: club level, lower bowl sides, upper bowl side (opposite the club level) and lower bowl ends. (The bowl would not be as deep, and one side would have sections -- with maybe 10 or so rows -- above the concourse level.)
  

I'm not sure how this affects cost, but I get the impression we're not overly concerned about costs on this forum.

[zippy5]

We can't build an arena without suites.

[Dave in Green]

@HS Stripes, I think any decision on suites and/or club level at any size arena should be based on local demand. UA would need to poll all of their top level financial supporters and local companies to see how much interest there would be in purchasing suites in a new arena. If there's zero demand, there'd be no need for suites. If there was modest demand, you could always go with a limited number of suites on one side or the other. If all the demand was for club level, you could go 100% club level. Or maybe it would work out 50/50 suites and club level. Point is that it's important to cater to your customers rather than setting arbitrary limits.

[odhgibo]

@HS Stripes, I think any decision on suites and/or club level at any size arena should be based on local demand. UA would need to poll all of their top level financial supporters and local companies to see how much interest there would be in purchasing suites in a new arena. If there's zero demand, there'd be no need for suites. If there was modest demand, you could always go with a limited number of suites on one side or the other. If all the demand was for club level, you could go 100% club level. Or maybe it would work out 50/50 suites and club level. Point is that it's important to cater to your customers rather than setting arbitrary limits.

I was responding to this statement: "I think that a 7,000-seat arena with steep pitch seating leading up to suites at the top may be the optimum arena for the Zips." I just happen to disagree with that being optimum.

Nevertheless, if someone is willing to pay for the construction of a suite and make a long term commitment to buy the full slate of tickets for 5+ seasons, I'm fine with it. However, absent those conditions, suites are a guaranteed money loser and a waste of space. I have dozens of voicemail messages from the Indians over the past 5 years to prove the point.

A college basketball arena has only 20 dates over which to amortize the cost of a suite. It's not a baseball stadium or a multipurpose arena. It's also not football stadium where people plan weekends around a game.

[Dave in Green]

Agreed. Don't waste money on suites unless there's a demand for them. They absolutely have to pay for themselves.

[tbozeglav]

A college basketball arena has only 20 dates over which to amortize the cost of a suite. It's not a baseball stadium or a multipurpose arena. It's also not football stadium where people plan weekends around a game.

To this point...

There are a lot more than 20 dates per year to amortize the cost, you just have to consider the possibilities beyond strictly men's basketball events. Women's basketball could very well begin to sell suites if their success continues. Concerts could easily be held there (as they rightfully should purely from a student entertainment standpoint) and suites WILL sell for that. Might even be able to tap into the local highschool basketball matchups which could potentially sell some suites.

Point is not what events will exactly sell a suite... the point is that there are a lot of event opportunities, should the university seize them to their fullest, where revenue from a suite could be garnered. There ARE people out there will pay more for a "luxury" experience at a game, concert, etc... the university would be fools to not afford themselves the opportunity to open that revenue stream.

[akronad]

I wouldn't look to too many local high school games being played there. The cost to rent the faciltiy is roughly $3500-$4000. It would need to be a narquee match, like back when SVSM, with LeBron, play Central-Hower. Thise games brought in the crowds. In addition to the cost for the facility, schools hate to give up a night's woth of concession revenue. Marquee matrch ups or state tourney games are the only ones that I see would work.

[ZachTheZip]

How many big donors are out there right now that have to settle for sitting in the lower bowl with the rest of the crowd because they have no other option? What about university officials? Does anybody not think that Proenza, Tressel, and Wistrcill would rather have suites to host VIPs?

[GP1]

Nevertheless, if someone is willing to pay for the construction of a suite and make a long term commitment to buy the full slate of tickets for 5+ seasons, I'm fine with it. However, absent those conditions, suites are a guaranteed money loser and a waste of space. I have dozens of voicemail messages from the Indians over the past 5 years to prove the point.

I bet you weren't getting those calls when the Indians were a better team.

Anyhow, they only need eight suites (four per side) in the design I described some pages ago....Just along the sidelines on both sides. It is important for the President to have a suite to entertain outsiders. There can also be suites for the Development offices. These high ticket items are critical to the financial stability of the program. I don't think it is too much to ask a marketing department to sell 6-8 suites. The suites can have ten seats in the last row of the lower bowl and they can be blocked off by some type of railing system.

The real money maker could be the club above the suites I described earlier. Charge extra for the private club and collect on an overpriced pre-game buffet and cocktails. Would The Great GP1 pay extra for tickets on a club level with a great view, free of a large part of the unwashed masses, easy access to food, easy access to restrooms (think of the benefits alone of having to take an in game dump in a semi-private bathroom if the moment hit) and most importantly easy access to in game cocktails? Your darn right he would and pays extra all the time to sit on club levels when possible.

[zippy5]

To this point...

There are a lot more than 20 dates per year to amortize the cost, you just have to consider the possibilities beyond strictly men's basketball events. Women's basketball could very well begin to sell suites if their success continues. Concerts could easily be held there (as they rightfully should purely from a student entertainment standpoint) and suites WILL sell for that. Might even be able to tap into the local highschool basketball matchups which could potentially sell some suites.

Point is not what events will exactly sell a suite... the point is that there are a lot of event opportunities, should the university seize them to their fullest, where revenue from a suite could be garnered. There ARE people out there will pay more for a "luxury" experience at a game, concert, etc... the university would be fools to not afford themselves the opportunity to open that revenue stream.

Suites don't sell game by game or sport by sport. They sell for the year and tickets must be bought for each game. The suites will sell, whether people show up to the women's games are a different story, but you can't just buy a suite for a game. You'd have to think we could sell 15-20 suites in a new arena to companies with this team, if we could do it for football.

[Spin]

Aren't the suites sold out at the Dialer?