Home vs. Toledo

[Dave in Green]

Well of course WMU beat Toledo. WMU was a pre-season pick for MAC champion by some. Just look at how WMU only lost to mighty Bowling Green today by 5 measly points to go 2-2 in the MAC. After less than a quarter of the MAC season, the one thing we know for sure is that no team is going to go undefeated in conference play. Beyond that, there are lots of twists and turns ahead.

[johnnyzip84]

What are the three most important aspects of home that is on the market? Location, location, location.

What are the three most important aspects of a basketball game? Matchups, matchups, matchups.

[Captain Kangaroo]

I feel like Toledo played their best game and we played about our worst game.

The Zips have played a lot of their "worst games" in recent losses. Going back to the VCU games, our L's have been abject butt-whuppin's. We've been highly non-competitive.

We will live and die by Kretzer and McAdams this season. If they can hit big shots, the middle will open up and we can make some hay. We can even overcome our PG play, which typically nets more turnovers than assists....and points...combined.

I wonder how much PT Betancourt, Ibitayo and Evans would see on Toledo's team? Or any D1 team.

If Kretzer and McAdams aren't hitting their shots, we're completely screwed. I hope they get hot in Cleveland.

[GP1]

Would you consider Toledo's game against Kansas meaningful enough?

Statistical size seems too small if you look at just one team.

Looks to me like Akron needs to have their top guys playing more minutes.

[Dave in Green]

Statistical size seems too small if you look at just one team. ...

I gave you the season average and you said that was too general, that you wanted to know what they did in big games. I gave you their biggest game, which almost exactly matches their season average, and now you say that's too small a sample. You reject all data that disproves your opinion while offering no data to support your opinion. Game over.

[GP1]

I gave you the season average and you said that was too general, that you wanted to know what they did in big games. I gave you their biggest game, which almost exactly matches their season average, and now you say that's too small a sample. You reject all data that disproves your opinion while offering no data to support your opinion. Game over.

Please see my signature line.

[Derrt]

Please see my signature line.

[Dave in Green]

@GP1, yes, I'm familiar with the tactic of deflection to divert attention from the point being discussed. The simplest way to resolve a debate about numbers is to simply present the numbers. In this case, the numbers support the position that Toledo's 9-player rotation does not play substantially different minutes in bigger games than their season average against all teams:

33, 30, 28, 27, 26, 17, 16, 11, 11 = UT season average

34, 32, 29, 26, 23, 18, 15, 14, 9 = UT vs. Kansas

34, 34, 31, 29, 25, 16, 11, 11, 9 = UT vs. Boston College

38, 35, 28, 21, 18, 18, 12, 12, 5 = UT vs. Zips

[GP1]

@GP1, yes, I'm familiar with the tactic of deflection to divert attention from the point being discussed. The simplest way to resolve a debate about numbers is to simply present the numbers. In this case, the numbers support the position that Toledo's 9-player rotation does not play substantially different minutes in bigger games than their season average against all teams:

33, 30, 28, 27, 26, 17, 16, 11, 11 = UT season average

34, 32, 29, 26, 23, 18, 15, 14, 9 = UT vs. Kansas

34, 34, 31, 29, 25, 16, 11, 11, 9 = UT vs. Boston College

38, 35, 28, 21, 18, 18, 12, 12, 5 = UT vs. Zips

It looks they play their key players more in big games. That's my point. There can't be nine key players. Worrying about the minutes of the rest doesn't focus on maximizing output.

I like to look at what teams do with their stars in big games. Many on this board obsess about what KD does with 9-10 guys in big games. What he doesn't do is settle on a smaller group of key players and ride them, do or die. That's why we fall short. Toledo came to win on Saturday and we came to tinker with the rotation.

[dirtyolcrowe]

I'm sorry but 59% FT is terrible. Whoever that asst. coach is that is responsible should be fired. Year in & year out our FT% is always bad. I think we would have still lost the Toledo game but 60-70 % that day. would have made our loss by 5-6 points. And by that...the game would have taken on a new twist in the closing minutes.

[Dave in Green]

It looks they play their key players more in big games. That's my point. ...

Sorry, the numbers for combined average minutes played by UT's key (top 5) players do not support your theory, but in fact show less than a 1.5% difference, which is within the rounding error for partial minutes played:

144 = all games

146 = big games (Kansas, Boston College, Zips)

Look, some of the points you've made are good. Nobody's perfect. It's OK to admit the parts we get wrong when presented with factual data. I do it all the time.

[Dave in Green]

I'm sorry but 59% FT is terrible. Whoever that asst. coach is that is responsible should be fired. Year in & year out our FT% is always bad. I think we would have still lost the Toledo game but 60-70 % that day. would have made our loss by 5-6 points. And by that...the game would have taken on a new twist in the closing minutes.

Unfortunately, 70% free throw shooting (about NCAA average) would have only added 3 points to the Zips' total, which would only have reduced the final margin from 14 to 11. But eventually there will come a close game where 3 points could make the difference between winning and losing.

[GP1]

Sorry, the numbers for combined average minutes played by UT's key (top 5) players

I'm not talking about their top five players. Teams don't have five key players.

[BirdZip]

Nailed it with the one trick ponies. I have written this team off for this year of doing anything magical, there is zero cohesion, gelling or whatever you want to call it. The lack of AA and Zeke is killing this team.

I think without one of them we would look better than we are now, not both. The lack of any point guard play could be offset by a rebounding machine down low, now we have both gone and Toledo destroyed us. This is a year to step back and hopefully Tree and Nick come back next year and somehow we get a point guard that can run the show, have confidence and throw in a shot here and there. AA would look good out there running with the rest of our athletes, just no floor general to speak of out there.

The point being outscored 25-0 or whatever yesterday was insane. Spoon took it to the Zips as well. Toledo came in with the aggressive mind set and wanted to-- and made the statement.

Sorry, but Zeke was not a rebounding machine. Our rebounding machine is still operating--he wears a "1".

[BirdZip]

Being in position to get loose balls is like being in position to get a rebound. Toledo was constantly in front of the Zips rebounders on the offensive end and the defensive end. If you execute good fundamental position rebounding (rebounding is an art, not a bunch of guys bumping into each other), the ball falls your way even when they are loose balls. It's the same as getting a fumble in football, get enough guys around the ball and fumbles get recovered. Get enough guys around the rim/ball and the rebounds go your way.

This is the argument that I made to my son over and over during and after the game. Akron is terrible at the fundamentals:

--We can't shoot free throws.

--We don't box out. (We can do well at rebounding sometimes, if we have the superior athletes, but it's not because we practice good fundamentals.)

--We can't break a press.

--We can't effectively apply a press.

--Our passing is weak.

I've heard Dambrot joke about the free throw shooting after a game with French. Something along the lines of sarcastically saying "Oh yeah, we never practice that" and laughing. Mocking the fans isn't the solution to the problem.

The worst part is that the five points above don't just apply to this year. It's a long-standing pattern.

[GP1]

This is the argument that I made to my son over and over during and after the game. Akron is terrible at the fundamentals:

Thanks for the reply BirdZips. I would say we have some work to do in terms of fundamentals, but I'm not sure we are terrible at them.

For example, I believe our passing would improve if the offense flowed better and the spacing was better.

I do think you hit the nail on the head. The Zips have a very talented group of players. I don't think it would be out of the question to call them one of most talented, if not the most talented team ever. There is a big difference between talent and playing good basketball. There have been Zips teams in the recent past who were less talented than the current group and would extend a beating to this current group because they played the game better.

[taxpayer]

Was at the game. I've read this chain of comments. I was at the game and was shocked and surprised to see Coach Peters on the bench which I thought would add some fire and determination to this group of players. What I saw was no leadership and no heart. Toledo played with a chip on their shoulders.....unfortunately no one on the Zip side seemed to care to knock the chip off their shoulder. Last years group had guts galore and the mental toughness to overcome some significant adversity.....I just don't see it this year. What I do see is players acting like babies when they get removed from a game and showing up the coach, their teammate coming in. Otherwise I didn't detect anyone getting upset over the beating I witnessed Saturday.....other than the coaches.

[Dave in Green]

I'm not talking about their top five players. Teams don't have five key players.

You keep talking in generalities, and generalities can't be measured. Please let me know when you come up with something more specific, and I'll give you some metrics that may or may not support your theory. But if it appears to be a game of continually moving the goal posts, I'll take that to mean that there's no interest in engaging in serious discussion.

[Dave in Green]

... The Zips have a very talented group of players. I don't think it would be out of the question to call them one of most talented, if not the most talented team ever.

Comparing the talent of this season's players who actually play (non-redshirted) to last season's players really comes down to comparing four departed players with their four replacements because the rest of the roster is the same.

Alex Abreu, Zeke Marshall, Chauncey Gilliam and Brian Walsh were replaced by:

Nyles Evans, Isaiah Johnson, Kwan Cheatham and Quincy Diggs.

Of course with the younger players we can only estimate raw talent because they haven't really had the same chance to show all they've got that the departing upperclassmen demonstrated over multiple seasons. But for this season's team to be more talented than last season's team, the second four players would have to prove over time to be more talented than the first four.

[phil]

Comparing the talent of this season's players who actually play (non-redshirted) to last season's players really comes down to comparing four departed players with their four replacements because the rest of the roster is the same.

Alex Abreu, Zeke Marshall, Chauncey Gilliam and Brian Walsh were replaced by:

Nyles Evans, Isaiah Johnson, Kwan Cheatham and Quincy Diggs.

Of course with the younger players we can only estimate raw talent because they haven't really had the same chance to show all they've got that the departing upperclassmen demonstrated over multiple seasons. But for this season's team to be more talented than last season's team, the second four players would have to prove over time to be more talented than the first four.

Respectfully disagree. Each year some players get better and some players get worse (sometimes because of injuries) and some stay the same. Pat is much better this year than last year (Sundays game may not prove this point), and Tree is better this year than last year. I think Harney has also improved this year. I have not seen a great deal of consistant improvement from Ibatayo or Bentacourt. The player improvement is expected and that makes up for the loss of talent. We have not seen the improvement from these players and it hurts the team. That being said I thought Bentacourt had a good first half even though he did not score. He played good defense, some nice rebounds, and some nice passes. The 2nd half he tried to drive to the basket and had some turnovers. I thought he outplayed Evans even though neither one of them scored.

[GP1]

You keep talking in generalities, and generalities can't be measured. Please let me know when you come up with something more specific, and I'll give you some metrics that may or may not support your theory. But if it appears to be a game of continually moving the goal posts, I'll take that to mean that there's no interest in engaging in serious discussion.

You already have given the metrics that prove my theory. The truth is all around you. Stop staring at the weeds.

[Valpo Zip]

This is the argument that I made to my son over and over during and after the game. Akron is terrible at the fundamentals:

--We can't shoot free throws.

--We don't box out. (We can do well at rebounding sometimes, if we have the superior athletes, but it's not because we practice good fundamentals.)

--We can't break a press.

--We can't effectively apply a press.

--Our passing is weak.

I've heard Dambrot joke about the free throw shooting after a game with French. Something along the lines of sarcastically saying "Oh yeah, we never practice that" and laughing. Mocking the fans isn't the solution to the problem.

The worst part is that the five points above don't just apply to this year. It's a long-standing pattern.

This could be my "Post of the year".

It is a long standing pattern. We did not achieve so many 22 win seasons because we were doing these things right. We were winning despite lacking fundamentals because, in the MAC, we had superior talent and depth.

Now that Toledo has equivalent talent, they exposed us.

Regarding KD addressing free throws, in the past he used to say: "it is mental. I try not to talk about it and let the players snap out of their mental funk".

Now he has a different answer of ridiculing those who ask about free throws. I am not sure which of the two answers is more inappropriate.

[Dave in Green]

... Stop staring at the weeds.

Good advice. I'll start skipping over weedy posts.

[RACER]

Harney, treadwell, diggs are one trick ponies ? we won five in a row before Toledo. why did you not post the one trick pony theme then.

you wait until we lose one game then you post the theme. kd will not play guys that won't play defense. if even you think some guys are on trick ponies on offense.they won't see the court without playing defense first. D.I. is decent three point shooter, and probably besides Q our best player in transition.

I am not saying the zips are perfect. our pg play/foul shooting is not very good right now. we red shirted two players, and probably should have red shirted cheatam.AA put kd, and the team in a terrible position. kd is stuck playing evans who never played d-1 ball. CB who was a backup last year,or

Q who is playing out of position at pg.im sure if kd knew how bad our play is at the pg postion. kd could have used up one of three guys who are not playing

to find another pg. i have no idea why cheatam was not red shirted. kd wasted a year for guy who won't see much pt. we have one offer next year.

kd needs to go out a find a pg. I don't like the idea of using three guys for a pg position, but I don't think kd has much choice.

evans will be senior next year,and cb will be a junior. we have have the kid from ST.V,but we won't have him next year.

if somebody does not come back next year then you could find someone to play Q position also.

[Dave in Green]

@RACER, BJ Gladden and Aaron Jackson will likely be used next season to fill Q's role at the wing. No one currently on the roster has yet shown they'd be able to adequately replace Q's time at the point. The Zips appear to be in good shape next season at all positions except PG.