Downtown Arena!

[RowdyZip]

Maybe that's your opinion. But, there has to be some reason why Cuyahoga County residents float to surrounding counties to buy cigs and alcohol.

Let me give you another example: Numerous business reports over the years have raved about the enormous growth and success of the Belden Village area of N. Canton. Do you know what they cite as one of the major factors? Believe it or not, the .25% that people save in sales tax by making the trip down there from Summit Co.

And More: Many years ago the laws were changed about buying cars, whereby you paid the sales tax rate where you lived, rather than where the dealership was located. Why? Because people were traveling to buy cars in another county where the sales tax rate saved them a few bucks, and it was creating a competitive advantage.

So, get out of your fantasy world of thinking that people don't care about these kinds of things.

I guess it's a perception thing then. I don't often go to the mall and spend the close to $2,000 it would take me to save enough to pay for the gallon of gas to get there and back.

[Zips Win!]

Maybe that's your opinion. But, there has to be some reason why Cuyahoga County residents float to surrounding counties to buy cigs and alcohol.

Let me give you another example: Numerous business reports over the years have raved about the enormous growth and success of the Belden Village area of N. Canton. Do you know what they cite as one of the major factors? Believe it or not, the .25% that people save in sales tax by making the trip down there from Summit Co.

And More: Many years ago the laws were changed about buying cars, whereby you paid the sales tax rate where you lived, rather than where the dealership was located. Why? Because people were traveling to buy cars in another county where the sales tax rate saved them a few bucks, and it was creating a competitive advantage.

So, get out of your fantasy world of thinking that people don't care about these kinds of things.

Sure voters care about tax increases, but when they hear the Zips are a lock for the ACC with a new arena, this passing is as guaranteed as a Zeke Marshall blocked shot at the rim.

[skip-zip]

I guess it's a perception thing then. I don't often go to the mall and spend the close to $2,000 it would take me to save enough to pay for the gallon of gas to get there and back.

That's ANOTHER good one. Why do people drive across town to a gas station where the price is cheaper, when they will just waste most of that savings on the trip over there anyway. Or, why do people save up their Giant Eagle points to earn 10 cents off per gallon, which might save them a dollar or so, about once every month.

Say what you want, or think what you want, but that's what people do.

[skip-zip]

Sure voters care about tax increases, but when they hear the Zips are a lock for the ACC with a new arena, this passing is as guaranteed as a Zeke Marshall blocked shot at the rim.

I can tell you this. If that's what sports fans in the area thought would happen, they'd all jump on the Zips bandwagon. And it wouldn't even matter how many of the others citizens showed up to vote it down.

[Spin]

Everyone time I read this stupid statement I cringe. The area of Cleveland where Quicken Loans and Progressive Field are was desolate and nothing was there with the exception of an Army Navy Surplus store. Do you remember what Prospect used to be known for....hookers in Cleveland. The area is now a full blown entertainment district with world renown restaurants. This argument has to stop...however they are using the statistics is obviously bullshit. Then let's talk about the actual tax dollars...the penny for every beer or wine ordered that goes to pay for it. Those taxes aren't breaking anyone. Those new stadiums spurred the growth of DT Cleveland to a point where they are now struggling to keep up with DT housing needs. DT Cleveland boasts a 95%+ occupancy rate for apartments with more coming online all the time.

I think the tax structure outlined as part of this argument is all wrong. I'd love to see a so called "sin tax" to pay for this too.

Closer to home, does anyone remember the area around Canal Park before Canal Park was there?

Were there ANY businesses in the area besides adult theaters and boarded up hotels where homeless stayed and "business" was conducted?

Now look at it.

[Spin]

What the people in Cuyahoga County who are against Issue 7 don't get is, the money is going to be paid. Either through the sin tax or from reductions in the public safety forces and other services that will be lost.

Voting down Issue 7 does NOT force the owners pay for upkeep and renovations on buildings the public owns.

[skip-zip]

There's another perspective that some people are failing to see.

Twenty years ago, Cuyahoga county residents were voting for a new facility for the INDIANS, a major league baseball team, to replace a decrepit 80 year old facility. And many of them now have regrets today.

Summit County voters will be taking the viewpoint that they are doing the same, but for the Akron Zips, a college sports team that many of them couldn't care less about, to replace a facility that is only 30 years old? When many of them have never seen the Zips play a basketball game in their lives?

It's going to be a very tough sell, even if they try to somehow position it as a "benefit to the entire community" project.

[Spin]

The attached document linked to earlier in this thread shows the arena will not be used for hockey.

UofA basketball has thrived and should continue to do well under KD in the years to come. If it is going to take more than five years to get a deal done for UofA to have their new arena, then do a deal with the City/County. If not, wait it out.

I don't understand why you would make such an investment in a building of such limited use. You're severely limiting the events you can hold, when you really need to fill dates.

And I've shown pictures in other threads of arenas that are multi-purpose which do not affect the sight-lines for basketball. I think people are basing it on the poor design of the quarter century old arena Cleveland State built. Things have changed a lot since then in seating systems. As old as the Gund arena is, I haven't heard any complaints about its design and sight lines at the MAC tournament.

It's ignorant to limit the use of the building that much. If you look at newer arenas in similar cities, most of those events use the whole floor space. How are they going to fill at least some of the 350 dates a year with a glorified basketball gym?

I wouldn't want that job.

[zippy5]

I'd bet the Charge announce a move very shortly after this thing is official. I don't believe there'd be room for Zips MBB, D League, and AHL in the same time of year

[RowdyZip]

That's ANOTHER good one. Why do people drive across town to a gas station where the price is cheaper, when they will just waste most of that savings on the trip over there anyway. Or, why do people save up their Giant Eagle points to earn 10 cents off per gallon, which might save them a dollar or so, about once every month.

Say what you want, or think what you want, but that's what people do.

I'm not denying that people do it. That's why programs like Fuel Perks are genius. Overpay for your groceries and we'll save you $2 on a tank of gas once a month. I'd still hope, probably stupidly, that the majority would be smart enough to calculate simple math. Oh well. As a fan, I hope it happens. As a taxpayer, I'm on the fence. Won't hurt me much, but I'm sure it would hurt some on tighter budgets.

[Spin]

I'd bet the Charge announce a move very shortly after this thing is official. I don't believe there'd be room for Zips MBB, D League, and AHL in the same time of year

Depending on their lease with the city of Canton, that's a possible tennant. That makes 42 dates +/-.

Is this building going to be sustained by the taxpayers? Or will it need to break even at some point? If the taxpayers are going to run and maintain it for few thousand Zips and Charge fans, then just having a basketball floor makes sense. Otherwise you have to look at other revenue streams to keep the doors open.

A minor league arena football or soccer team is one way of doing that. But if you really want something to sell to the taxpayers, you have to think outside sports. You have to look at what other cities are doing with their structures. And then show the taxpayer that it's not just a gym for the University and the Cavs feeder team.

http://wesbancoarena.com/ http://www.erieevents.com/about/tullio_arena.htm http://www.huntingtoncentertoledo.com/

That would be a much easier sell IMO

[skip-zip]

Oh well. As a fan, I hope it happens. As a taxpayer, I'm on the fence. Won't hurt me much, but I'm sure it would hurt some on tighter budgets.

I pretty much agree with you. I really want this to happen. I'm no necessarily happy or unhappy that it will take a tax increase to make it happen, but I have tons of doubt that county residents will jump on board.

Someone made the point that sales tax increases proportionally hurt the middle to lower income people more. That's true. But from my standpoint, I'm just glad it's not being proposed as a property tax increase.

[g-mann17]

Maybe that's your opinion. But, there has to be some reason why Cuyahoga County residents float to surrounding counties to buy cigs and alcohol.

Let me give you another example: Numerous business reports over the years have raved about the enormous growth and success of the Belden Village area of N. Canton. Do you know what they cite as one of the major factors? Believe it or not, the .25% that people save in sales tax by making the trip down there from Summit Co.

And More: Many years ago the laws were changed about buying cars, whereby you paid the sales tax rate where you lived, rather than where the dealership was located. Why? Because people were traveling to buy cars in another county where the sales tax rate saved them a few bucks, and it was creating a competitive advantage.

So, get out of your fantasy world of thinking that people don't care about these kinds of things.

So if we are talking about Belden and the advantage of 6.50% tax, explain to me why Crocker Park and Beachwood are so popular? People from every county in NEO go to Cuyahoga County (8% plus sin tax) to eat and shop; 100's of thousands of people shop in these places every week. So much so, that Crocker Park is expanding.

Do people really care?

People don't like tax, they will holler about an increase, but the reality is, it doesn't change behavior. People go to Belden because the choices are better, it sure isn't to save 25 cents on their $100 jeans. And the real reason for the success of these particular malls...demographics, and you know to what I' am alluding.

[GP1]

Everyone time I read this stupid statement I cringe. The area of Cleveland where Quicken Loans and Progressive Field are was desolate and nothing was there with the exception of an Army Navy Surplus store. Do you remember what Prospect used to be known for....hookers in Cleveland. The area is now a full blown entertainment district with world renown restaurants. This argument has to stop...however they are using the statistics is obviously bullshit. Then let's talk about the actual tax dollars...the penny for every beer or wine ordered that goes to pay for it. Those taxes aren't breaking anyone. Those new stadiums spurred the growth of DT Cleveland to a point where they are now struggling to keep up with DT housing needs. DT Cleveland boasts a 95%+ occupancy rate for apartments with more coming online all the time.

I think the tax structure outlined as part of this argument is all wrong. I'd love to see a so called "sin tax" to pay for this too.

Ah, the illusion vs. reality argument. The reality is, these taxes are never enough to pay for what they say they are going to pay for so more taxes have to be levied in order to pay for the broken promise. Again, I'll restate, there is zero evidence that the construction of stadiums brings in enough revenue to pay for themselves. Numbers are reality and the reality is they don't.

The hookers on Prospect Avenue argument. Prostitution is the world oldest profession. The new stadiums didn't eliminate prostitution in Cleveland. They just moved it somewhere else. The girls are conducting business on another street.

The restaurant argument. There are a limited amount of people who want to go get drunk in Cleveland on the weekends. They will go somewhere. My guess is the drunks have moved to the stadium area and away from the flats because the Flats ain't what it used to be.

The downtown housing argument. This goes on in every city and is going on right now in Charlotte. Downtown housing attracts young people with limited income. As soon as they get older and meet someone they would like to marry and start a family with, they leave for the great white suburbs. The problem Cleveland has is their inability to keep this demographic because they really fill up the public bank accounts with their money. As sad as this sounds, there really is a limit to the number of nights a person can go out drinking.

Nobody ever asks about the rest of Cleveland though. My guess is it hasn't gotten any better and has probably gotten worse in the past few years. The City of Cleveland is like the person who owns what looks like a great house because the front of it looks nice, but when you look in the back yard, it is fully of rusted out cars and old tires. More money for stadiums is not what Cleveland needs.

Getting back to the Akron arena case. Until I moved away from Akron (I actually lived in the City), I had no idea how bad the tax burden was around NE Ohio. Specifically, Akron and Summit County in general. I now live in a suburb of Charlotte (in SC) and have a much more expensive home than when I lived in Akron and my taxes are lower at every level. All around us, new neighborhoods are being built with accompanying schools, wider roads and good public services. It's funny how a community like this can spend their tax money on things that matter. When the Charlotte Knights wanted to move uptown, they didn't panic and spend a fortune renovating their stadium, they waved goodbye, are in the process of demolishing the stadium and turning it into a transportation park that is already filled when construction is complete. The next part is going to sound like Cleveland. In Charlotte, the City is spending a fortune renovating Bank of America Stadium for an average team in a league that makes billions. The schools in Charlotte/Meck (there is a county school system in Charlotte) are becoming a disaster and communities like mine are seeing the relocation of families out of Charlotte to enjoy better schools and a less crippling tax burden. In the next 15 years, the population of my town is projected to triple. Uptown Charlotte is building one high rise apartment complex after another hoping they can fill them with people who want to go get drunk every night.

Keep taxing yourselves for the Browns, Cavs and Indians you idiots. Heap on a tax for Akron as well. I don't live there anymore, what do I care?

[skip-zip]

So if we are talking about Belden and the advantage of 6.50% tax, explain to me why Crocker Park and Beachwood are so popular? People from every county in NEO go to Cuyahoga County (8% plus sin tax) to eat and shop; 100's of thousands of people shop in these places every week. So much so, that Crocker Park is expanding.

Do people really care?

People don't like tax, they will holler about an increase, but the reality is, it doesn't change behavior. People go to Belden because the choices are better, it sure isn't to save 25 cents on their $100 jeans. And the real reason for the success of these particular malls...demographics, and you know to what I' am alluding.

It's been cited repeatedly, my friend.

Please, go ahead and try to make the argument that Bath/Montrose is a "worse area" than N. Canton. Yet, Summit County residents will go to Belden Village to shop? Coincidence maybe?

I know you're just trying to get your hopes to fit into the facts. But, you're being incredibly naïve about human behavior.

[Zipgrad01]

I would argue that more people choose to go to Belden Village over Montrose because there are more stores and restaurants there.

[g-mann17]

It's been cited repeatedly, my friend.

Please, go ahead and try to make the argument that Bath/Montrose is a "worse area" than N. Canton. Yet, Summit County residents will go to Belden Village to shop? Coincidence maybe?

I know you're just trying to get your hopes to fit into the facts. But, you're being incredibly naïve about human behavior.

What the hell are you talking about?

People in Bath Montrose shop in N.Canton? No, they go to Crocker Park in Cuyahoga County. And last I heard Montrose isn't hurting for consumers at all. If it's been cited, then list the citation.

Again, if tax mattered, then Crocker Park and Beachwood would be flopping because they are in a county with a 1.25% higher tax rate with the addition of an alcohol tax for all their restaurants. The only person here trying to fill facts with hope is you sir. The naivety here is in your insistence that everyone leaves a county to save pennies. It doesn't happen. Do you know why Belden works, the honest reason, that accounts for all variables? Southern Summit County has the heaviest population, there are more shopping options and the highway access is more direct then going to Summit Mall, period. Has nothing to do with a .25% tax difference that a conservative think tank says "impacts shopping". You seem well educated. The least you can do is look where your information source is coming from before throwing stuff like that out there.

People shop where they have the most options or most convenience, cents to the dollar matters very little in shopping decisions.

[Spin]

I would argue that more people choose to go to Belden Village over Montrose because there are more stores and restaurants there.

Like Roosters, Quaker Steak and Lube, to name a couple

[K92]

I have never known anyone who made shopping decisions according to varying county tax rates. I have, however, known people who have gotten a big chubby over shopping for clothes at Pennsylvania retail outlets to save paying sales tax altogether. Those people are kooks, though.

[Spin]

The restaurant argument. There are a limited amount of people who want to go get drunk in Cleveland on the weekends. They will go somewhere. My guess is the drunks have moved to the stadium area and away from the flats because the Flats ain't what it used to be.

So, the Gateway District doesn't see a large increase in customers when the Indians/Cavs are in town? Likewise South Main when the RubberAeros are in town?

The people who migrated from the Flats when it became a war zone went to West 3rd Street, And if that turns into an expensive dangerous hole full of douch bags they will migrate somewhere else.

Nobody ever asks about the rest of Cleveland though. My guess is it hasn't gotten any better and has probably gotten worse in the past few years. The City of Cleveland is like the person who owns what looks like a great house because the front of it looks nice, but when you look in the back yard, it is fully of rusted out cars and old tires. More money for stadiums is not what Cleveland needs.

They're not asking for 'more' money for the teams. They're asking that the money the public is responsible for to keep up its structures continue to come from the sin tax, and not from firefighters and cops getting laid off.

If the county buys a police car, they have a lot of expense in keeping it on the road. And after so many miles, it needs an overhaul, or replaced. The public just can't vote to stop changing the oil in the cars and replacing batteries. It doesn't work that way. If you take away the revenue to do that maintenance, it has to come from somewhere else.

[skip-zip]

What the hell are you talking about?

People in Bath Montrose shop in N.Canton? No, they go to Crocker Park in Cuyahoga County. And last I heard Montrose isn't hurting for consumers at all. If it's been cited, then list the citation.

Again, if tax mattered, then Crocker Park and Beachwood would be flopping because they are in a county with a 1.25% higher tax rate with the addition of an alcohol tax for all their restaurants. The only person here trying to fill facts with hope is you sir. The naivety here is in your insistence that everyone leaves a county to save pennies. It doesn't happen. Do you know why Belden works, the honest reason, that accounts for all variables? Southern Summit County has the heaviest population, there are more shopping options and the highway access is more direct then going to Summit Mall, period. Has nothing to do with a .25% tax difference that a conservative think tank says "impacts shopping". You seem well educated. The least you can do is look where your information source is coming from before throwing stuff like that out there.

People shop where they have the most options or most convenience, cents to the dollar matters very little in shopping decisions.

You're getting way off track now.

Listen...Retailers just outside of Cuyahoga County have benefitted from it for years, the growth of Belden Village has been attributed to the lower sales tax rates in Stark County, and the state lawmakers passed legislation because of it, because car dealerships cried about having a disadvantage.

That's what I posted originally. Those are the facts. I'm sharing this information with my fellow posters. Choose to do what you want with the information. If you choose to ignore it and think people don't care, that's your choice.

[Dave in Green]

I have no doubt that a certain percentage of people prefer shopping in a particular area because it has slightly lower sales tax just as I have no doubt that a certain percentage of people pay absolutely no attention to small differences in sales taxes and just shop wherever more of their favorite stores are located. The missing element here is just how many people fall into each group. Count me among the skeptics that Belden Village's growth is primarily fueled by a massive influx of shoppers who are so frugal that they'd drive out of their way looking to save .25%. I'd like to see the source of that data.

[skip-zip]

Dave and a few others....

Let this serve as an example of why many people I know don't come on this forum. Instead of it being an excellent place to share facts, people just want to dispute them, and form their own opinions.

I've known this fact for years about Belden Village, and the advantages of the lower tax rate. For God's sake, laws were changed to take away their competitive advantage!!

[LZIp]

What the hell are you talking about?

People in Bath Montrose shop in N.Canton? No, they go to Crocker Park in Cuyahoga County. And last I heard Montrose isn't hurting for consumers at all. If it's been cited, then list the citation.

Again, if tax mattered, then Crocker Park and Beachwood would be flopping because they are in a county with a 1.25% higher tax rate with the addition of an alcohol tax for all their restaurants. The only person here trying to fill facts with hope is you sir. The naivety here is in your insistence that everyone leaves a county to save pennies. It doesn't happen. Do you know why Belden works, the honest reason, that accounts for all variables? Southern Summit County has the heaviest population, there are more shopping options and the highway access is more direct then going to Summit Mall, period. Has nothing to do with a .25% tax difference that a conservative think tank says "impacts shopping". You seem well educated. The least you can do is look where your information source is coming from before throwing stuff like that out there.

People shop where they have the most options or most convenience, cents to the dollar matters very little in shopping decisions.

Reps if I could. Common sense people....

[LZIp]

Dave and a few others....

Let this serve as an example of why many people I know don't come on this forum. Instead of it being an excellent place to share facts, people just want to dispute them, and form their own opinions.

I've known this fact for years about Belden Village, and the advantages of the lower tax rate. For God's sake, laws were changed to take away their competitive advantage!!

All you do is spew these "facts", but never have anything to back it up. Source data shouldn't be too hard to find if what you say is true.