defense pass rush

[RACER]

i just wonder why we can never get any pressure on the qb.i know we run the 3-3-5 but even when we biltz we cannot get to the qb.i don't know if we don't have the personell ,or the coaching.i played d-line in high schooland our team constantly shot gaps,and twisted ect.i just don't see akron doing any of that.

[Lee Adams]

two real obvious problems..1) Zips have no STUD in the front 3...2) unless you send at least 6 in ANY blitz it ain't gonna get pressure consistently....maybe occasionally but not consistently...this 3 front is S..T you can't control the line of scrimmage at ALL...this D has NEVER had a pass rush or stopped the run...look at the history...time to get rid of Fleming...

[blueandgold]

two real obvious problems..1) Zips have no STUD in the front 3...2) unless you send at least 6 in ANY blitz it ain't gonna get pressure consistently....maybe occasionally but not consistently...this 3 front is S..T you can't control the line of scrimmage at ALL...this D has NEVER had a pass rush or stopped the run...look at the history...time to get rid of Fleming...

I disagree. We do have one stud on the line. Almondo Sewall is a stud. He is already making an impact as a Freshman. Give him some credit. He is a LB that is still learning a new position.

[Lee Adams]

OK I'll give you that but it still hasn't translated to PRESSURE!

[skip-zip]

It's not the defensive scheme that is the problem. We simply do not have any premier pass rushers. The closest thing we have to that is Brion Stokes, who certainly is not your prototype DE/LB, but gets the job done.The truth is, its very difficult for mid-majors to recruit top-notch defensive linemen.

[Dr Z]

The truth is, its very difficult for mid-majors to recruit top-notch defensive linemen.

I know JD says this all the time to defend his decision to play his 3-3-5 defense, but I still don't buy the fact that we can't get quality defensive linemen at Akron. This has GOT to change with the new stadium.

[skip-zip]

Dr. Z.....nice picture. I've been e-mailing that to my OSU friends.I'm not defending what JD says about DLs, and I am not meaning this to be an insult to the DLs we have, because we have some good linemen. But, I know quite a few people in the coaching profession that acknowledge that this is the case. For some reason, big and fast defensive linemen at the high school level are not very plentiful. The big schools know this, and they battle fiercly over the ones that are top notch. Could it be that good athletes just don't want to play DL in high school? Maybe so. And this could be why schools like Akron go after guys like Jason Taylor and Almondo Sewell, who were good high school linebackers that were able to be converted into DLs.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Ryan Bain will make a HUGE impact next season. He's Nate Robinson, but without the motivational issues.Lemon will be bigger. Joe Rash will be ready. Shane Shead will be ready. Deni Odofin, who will see PT the remainder of the season, will be ready.Look for our D-line to make a vast improvement next season. The drawback...we lose Tate & Corner, so we may struggle in the secondary. We'll need an improved pass rush to compensate.BTW - Brion Stokes will break Jason Taylor's all-time career tackles for loss record this year. I thought that was an interesting fact.

[Lee Adams]

the problem IS the defense if you don't have the right players to play it! darn it!...ok lets look at the 3-3-5 from the scout's perspective...it should be good against the pass because you normally have a lot of people off the line...but...when you run the base D with 3 down D-lineman there are all kinds of holes that need filled...once the D line take their lane to the QB the field opens up at the line because there are more O line than D line...HENCE NO PRESSURE...AND if backers,corners and safeties drop there are acres for any type of delayed run or QB scramble..to get any kind of pass rush or to plug those holes you have to send at least 5 but probably 6 just to outnumber the O line...that leaves holes in the middle of the secondary especially if you play man on the corners...RUN RIGHT AT IT until they bring up a safety or keep backers in the box..then throw over it...thats exactly what is happening...

[g-mann17]

the problem IS the defense if you don't have the right players to play it! darn it!...ok lets look at the 3-3-5 from the scout's perspective...it should be good against the pass because you normally have a lot of people off the line...but...when you run the base D with 3 down D-lineman there are all kinds of holes that need filled...once the D line take their lane to the QB the field opens up at the line because there are more O line than D line...HENCE NO PRESSURE...AND if backers,corners and safeties drop there are acres for any type of delayed run or QB scramble..to get any kind of pass rush or to plug those holes you have to send at least 5 but probably 6 just to outnumber the O line...that leaves holes in the middle of the secondary especially if you play man on the corners...RUN RIGHT AT IT until they bring up a safety or keep backers in the box..then throw over it...thats exactly what is happening...

Congratulations you just described the flaws inherent in every defense. If you run a 4-3 the O-Line still out numbers you. If you run a 3-4 guess what? The O-line out numbers you. The argument you make against the 3-3-5 can be made against any defensive scheme you can think of. It is the innate challenge of playing defense.However. If you run a 4-3 (which it seems most of you anti 3-3-5 want to run) with a line that is not talented you will get blown off the ball. You will give up the outside because your ends will be hook blocked or kicked out all day long. In order to run a 4-3 you need 3 great defensive linemen. Not just 1 as in the 3-4 or 3-3-5. You are going to challenge this. But let me try to explain. If I take someone like Almondo Sewell and put him in a 4-3 he has too options. Bull rush the tackle, or beat him with speed. Now If I take Almondo Sewell in a 3 man front he has 4 options. Drop into coverage, stunt with a linebacker, bull rush the tacke, or beat the tackle with his speed. A 4 man front is designed to stale mate the O-line. You hope that one of your men is strong enough to draw a double team negating the one man advantage the o-line has. You can not attack in a 4-3. If you do, you give up a seam or the middle of the field. 3-4 and 3-3-5 are attacking defenses. The idea is to confuse the blocking scheme with stunts and blitz packages. The offense may know you are sending 5 but they don't know which 5. Plus all of you want to judge defenses in historical terms. How many yards did they give up? The measurement of the modern defense is how many times did they make the opponent turn the ball over? Did they give the offense a chance to win?

[skip-zip]

Thanks G-mann. There's still 11 guys on the field, no matter what way you look at it. Whether you have 3 DLs and 2 LBs blitzing, or you have 5 DLs, or you have 4 DLs and 1 LB blitzing, it really doesn't matter. If you aren't getting pressure on the QB, you likely just do not have good pass rushers. It doesn't matter much what title they hold on the field. Remember, on many plays, Brion Stokes is either lined up where a DE would line up, or comes in from his linebacker spot. So, we essentially have at least 4 guys heading towards our opponents backfield on just about every play anyway.

[GP1]

All good replies about the defense. I was the first ever to complain about this defense after the MACC two years ago. I'll make this quick as I have posted a ton about my hatred for this defense in the past. The problem is not where the guys line up, it is the fact that the players are too small and it forces the defense into extreme behaviors resulting in giving up big chunks of yardage at a time.Architects always say they don't want to be the first person to try a product and they don't want to be the last person to stop using a product. I think the 3-3-5 defense is down to Akron and WVU now. Let's dump it in the off season so we won't be the last. 3-4 is the answer.

[g-mann17]

Architects always say they don't want to be the first person to try a product and they don't want to be the last person to stop using a product. I think the 3-3-5 defense is down to Akron and WVU now. Let's dump it in the off season so we won't be the last. 3-4 is the answer.

The 3-4 is no different then the 3-3-5 we are using now. Wayne Cobham would be the 2nd OLB. The truth is that the 3-3-5 is up to Akron and WVU now. It's a new style defense designed to compete with teams like Florida who try to get to the edge on the majority of their plays. Other then USF, WVU does pretty well with their defense in the Big East. Akron does very well with it's defense against the MAC. Since the idea is to win the MAC (which the 3-3-5 has done) I don't see a need for a change.

[RACER]

g-mann this is not a personal attack but if you thought the defense played good the last two week then i guess we are in big trouble.the defense played terrible the last two weeks.the ony way you can measure a defense is how many points they give up.what else is there.

[Dr Z]

If you aren't getting pressure on the QB, you likely just do not have good pass rushers.

I think you can get pressure on the QB with a good scheme. Look at the Steelers. There is no one particular "pass rusher"on that team. They get good pressure on the QB by overloading. With the talent in Akron's secondary, I don't see why we can't accomplish the same thing. When Akron has tried to send more than the O-line can block this year, their spacing and timing seem awful.I think the blitz package needs some serious help regardless of 3-3-5, 3-4 or 4-3.

[g-mann17]

g-mann this is not a personal attack but if you thought the defense played good the last two week then i guess we are in big trouble.the defense played terrible the last two weeks.the ony way you can measure a defense is how many points they give up.what else is there.

The Last two weeks? UConn, Let's see the Defense gave us the chance to have the lead at halftime, and take the lead on the first play in the third quarter. We Lost 44-10. That sounds like an offense not being on the field long enough to give the D a break problem to me. Last week WMU. We Stopped WMU enough to have a chance to win the game. Despite an offense that came out and did nothing in the 3rd quarter. The Defense won the Can't game because of the turnovers it forced. I believe the Defense gave us the lead in the Army game that we won. No. I really can't say that the defense has been "terrible". It's always funny to me how fans will blame the defense for losing games when a team has an impotent offense. If you the O can't eat up the clock it doesn't matter how good your defense is. You are going to see them tire out and make mistakes.

[RACER]

good point.i do agree in the especially the osu game the defense played good enought to win.in the u-conn n game they did get worn down because the offense did nothing.still against wmu the d did not have a good game.corner was getting beat all day.i know some of that was the lack of pass rush but our secondary was getting beat by wmu recievers.

[GP1]

Architects always say they don't want to be the first person to try a product and they don't want to be the last person to stop using a product. I think the 3-3-5 defense is down to Akron and WVU now. Let's dump it in the off season so we won't be the last. 3-4 is the answer.

The 3-4 is no different then the 3-3-5 we are using now. Wayne Cobham would be the 2nd OLB. The truth is that the 3-3-5 is up to Akron and WVU now. It's a new style defense designed to compete with teams like Florida who try to get to the edge on the majority of their plays. Other then USF, WVU does pretty well with their defense in the Big East. Akron does very well with it's defense against the MAC. Since the idea is to win the MAC (which the 3-3-5 has done) I don't see a need for a change.

Getting back to my main point that the players are too small. Lining up in the right place is not good enough. You have to have the right type of player lining up in the right place to be successful. If we are counting on a 6' 2", 190 pound defensive back (Wayne Cobham) to be the same as rushing a 6' 3", 220 pound linebacker, we are asking Wayne to do more than what his body is built to do. That is the difference between the 3-4 and the 3-3-5.....the players are too small and have trouble competing against larger players the way offenses are run these days. One more medium size player could make all the difference.I actually think JD brought the defense here to compete against Marshall and Miami. At the time they were the powers in the conference. Good choice at the time, but as much as I like JD, he wasn't looking to the future with this defense. Both Florida and USF run offenses that run up the middle more with the spread option offense. This is a terrible defense to defend against that offense. College football is becoming more like the NFL where teams run in the middle. It's actually been like that for a couple of years now and I noticed it after the Motor City Bowl. We are actually behind the times with our defense as the 3-3-5 is out dated. That's the point of the architects.I'm sure I'll continue to complain about this defense and JD will continue to win games. I can live with that and be extremely happy. We have won a low scoring game with this defense (Army), a medium scoring game (Can't) and a high scoring game (WMU). Someone knows something I don't. Wait, I do know and have been saying it for years on this board and someone has mentioned it on this thread. Defense wins nothing....it only puts the offense in a position to win. In the end, the offense has to win the game. Let's just keep winning.

[g-mann17]

Wait, I do know and have been saying it for years on this board and someone has mentioned it on this thread. Defense wins nothing....it only puts the offense in a position to win. In the end, the offense has to win the game. Let's just keep winning.

Won't argue with that

[RACER]

all good points.i played d-line in high school and i do not see the zips dl use any spins ,swim moves ,stunts, moves ect to get to the passer.all they do is bull rush every time.even when we do blitz two people we cannot get to the qb.whats sad is how many third and long this defense gives up.even when they knew wmu was going to pass we could not stop them.im sure i will get some flak for this but i still think the d-line coaching has been bad.this goes back to even before jd with owens it was even worse.our only hope is the transfer from iowa will help,and sewell can put on about 30 lbs.he is probably our best dl and is a true freshman.

[skip-zip]

Our biggest problem defensively the last couple of weeks has been missed tackles, not where someone was lined up, or what defensive formation we were in. I'm calling this the "John Mackey Effect" because our ability to tackle seemed to disappear once he was no longer in the lineup. Speaking of the WMU game specifically, our DBs were in good coverage on a lot of those long pass plays. Their QB was hot, and their WRs made some great plays.

[Lee Adams]

RACER, thank you...anyone who doesn't think there is a difference in the way teams line up on Defense is either completely unable to be critical for whatever reasons or is absolutely non-knowlegeable about the game...there is another word but i refrain...why in HE double toohpicks do you think coaches play different defenses..if they are good coaches they play the D that fits their personnel...not the other way around...so then WHY DOES THE ZIPS D GIVE UP SO MANY YARDS to a whole bunch of different teams?

[Lee Adams]

chinese proverb: 'it is wisest man who knows own ignorance'