Dave in Green

I tried to respond to your question, but a moderator removed my post.

Wow, the coveted 10-yard-line seats in the lucky 21st row. Pretty special seats there.

Tsk-tsk, more sloppiness. The resident UA prof is going to give a failing grade to ZN.o.

Reading the story in detail, it does not appear that the UPA has necessarily run its course, but is changing course and has been invited to apply for a new grant once new plans are in place:

@Districtballer, many thanks for thinking of us. Looks like a pretty exciting itinerary from reading the pdf file at the Global Sports Academy website.

@GoZips, thanks for the update on practice. I'll try to get to another one when things slow down a little on the home front. The Zips lost three starters (Zeke, Walsh and Abreu), same as WMU. That's a huge loss of starting talent, and losing Chauncey off the bench adds to the pain. Those four players averaged about half of the Zips' 200 minutes of PT per game last season. One review of the MAC I read predicted that WMU would be strong due to having the best returning center in the MAC. The Bronco's 6-11 Shayne Whittington may not be NBA material. But he's an established, experienced senior who was second team All-MAC as a junior, and led the MAC in double-doubles (points and rebounds) ahead of Tree. The Zips have good potential at center with Pat and Big Dog. But one or both of them have to prove themselves against other D-I teams before anyone will acknowledge that they're better than Whittington. I'm going to remain a little skeptical about how well the Zips will perform as a team this season until they prove to me how badly they want it and how well they work together in regular season games.

@Spin, you make a lot of good points. Basketball is my favorite sport, and I really, really want the Zips to be playing in a better arena. But I don't know that most of the negative opinions are so much anti-arena as they are doubting that it's the best investment of resources in a down economy, especially when there are no obvious resources readily available. I find it hard to believe that anyone posting in this thread would have any objection if a wealthy benefactor/sponsor stepped up and said they were willing to provide most of the costs of a new basketball arena. It's just that there's not a lot of confidence that's likely to happen.

And I don't believe you can disprove my non belief, so we'll both go on believing what we did when the discussion started. A lifetime of accumulated anecdotal data suggests to me that this is the way most internet forum discussions end, but I have no numerical data to prove it.

I never expected news about Zeke to absolutely fall off a cliff. But there is literally no news about him anywhere. I suppose this is related to regrouping after the NBA Summer League, and deciding where he goes from here. But it's still unsettling not to be able to find anything new about his situation anywhere.

Hokey dokey, I agree that numerical data is prequantified. However, non-numerical data is not prequantified, and I don't believe that "almost all data" is numerical, especially on internet forums.

Krzyzewski.

I'm familiar with the definitions for both quantified and data. Can you point me to a definition of "prequantified" that would make sense of "almost all data comes prequantified?"

A few months ago he was still undecided about whether to play football or basketball in college according to this article.

Not really. The world is full of anecdotal data that hasn't been quantified. Reading any internet forum instantly verifies that.

The Education Trust also dumped on Michigan schools, and previously did the same with for-profit schools. Looks like they just take raw numbers and publicize the worst ones in an effort to create more public awareness and more public demand for high academic achievement, especially for low income minority groups. You can read about The Education Trust's mission and other information about the group here.

First, I want to say that I really appreciate your efforts to quantify data. It really adds a lot to the conversation. The main question I have relates to your statement above along with your earlier statement: As I understand it, raw, incomplete data rarely tells an accurate story. The annual CSU raw data is pretty simplistic. It does not include many important variables, and by its nature it's locked into annual silos. So it really does require interpretation and attempts to apply logic to have any significant meaning. Do I understand correctly that this is the point you were trying to make with your statements above?

I think you have to look at the attendance in multiyear trends rather than as individual seasons. For example, when CSU goes from having a losing record to a winning record, there's a lag in attendance going up. When attendance does start going up, it carries over even into the next season when they might have a losing record. The same is true when they transition from winning seasons to losing seasons. I think this is based on paid attendance including season ticketholders, whether they show up or not. So after winning seasons, season ticket sales tend to go up for the next season even if the next season turns out to be a losing season. It defies everything I know about sports to think that winning does not positively impact attendance and losing does not negatively impact attendance. Of course there are other factors that also need to be considered when comparing annual attendance, such as state of the economy from year to year, etc.

The Wolstein is grossly overbuilt for what CSU really needed. The Woodling Gym seated just over 3k and averaged just over 2k per game. The Wolstein seats over 13k, and the average game attendance since it was opened is just over 3k, so typically more than 10k empty seats. That has no bearing on the fact that a new facility resulted in a sustainable 50% attendance increase despite teams with fewer winning seasons. The Zips do not need a huge arena, just a moderately larger one than the JAR. A modern arena with great sight lines, comfortable seating and quality amenities will result in more attendance. The hard part is determining exactly how much more attendance in order not to overpay for too many seats that go empty.

According to the CSU data, they averaged a little over 2k fans per game over 13 years in the Woodling Arena, and a little over 3k fans per game over 22 years in the Wolstein Arena. So they got about a 50% average attendance bump from the new arena, with year-to-year averages varying according to how much the team was winning. It should be noted that CSU had winning records in 9 of 13 years in the Woodling and only 8 of 22 in the Wolstein. That suggests that the Wolstein has helped increase CSU attendance even more than winning. Very interesting.

Bingo. That's the basic infrastructure. On top of that you can add things like dynamite marketing, casual fans climbing on the bandwagon, etc., etc. It's like a multistage rocket launching a satellite into earth orbit. A single stage rocket alone will go fast and far for awhile, but not achieve orbit.

@Spin, that's some good data you've provided. I'm with Hilltopper on upgrading my seat only after a new arena finally arrives. The JAR's lower level, more expensive seating is not worth the upgrade price to me. I've sat down there and the viewing angle is too shallow, with people in front of you blocking more court view than in the steeper angle, less expensive, upper level seats. It's best to eliminate variables when comparing the before/after of a single element like attendance. For example, to accurately judge the increase in attendance of the new on-campus football stadium over the tired old stadium miles from campus, other attendance variables such as team performance would need to be consistent. Unfortunately, the move to the new football stadium occurred simultaneously with a precipitous drop in the football team's performance, offsetting expected attendance gains. Coach Bowden is well on his way to producing team performance that along with the new stadium should generate much stronger attendance numbers. Under Coach Dambrot, Zips basketball program performance has been on an upward trajectory for years, and attendance has been slowly increasing. Adding a new arena while maintaining that upward performance trajectory would undoubtedly result in a further increase in attendance, and it would surely cause me to spend more money on premium seating. While it's speculative to cite exact numbers of attendance increase resulting from a new Zips basketball arena, looking at similar experiences at other area venues like those Spin provided can at least give a ballpark idea of what might be expected.

And here's how a classy coach handles it: Bowden Takes the Higher Road

Anyone who doesn't want to think there's the slightest chance that Abreu might someday return to Zips basketball will be pleased with this headline: Abreu Officially Done at Akron

@UAZip0510, Zeke finished his senior season as the #6 college player in the country in effective field goal percentage (65.53%). That earns him a pass from me for being a little off in his limited Summer League shooting.

True Big Dog story: We were sitting on the sideline behind the scorer's table at the JAR watching practice this week, and the players were going all out. A loose ball came bouncing right at my face, and here comes Big Dog and another player running full speed right at me. I remember thinking how Big Dog looks even bigger when he's running right at you. Then my life flashed before my eyes. Good thing that big rig has great brakes. I survived untouched, but the scorer's table took a pretty good hit and dumped someone's cellphone into the trash can alongside the table. Any player who tries to take a charge from Big Dog when he's driving to the basket should be eligible for a Purple Heart.