Zips vs. Bobcats

[GoZips]

I was also mystified by the McNees pass to nowhere until the person sitting next to me explained that he had been watching Roberts, and Roberts had fallen to the floor just as McNees was launching a pass him.If McNees had a major problem with turnovers, it would show up in the stats. It doesn't.

Dave, there is a type of turnover that Steve is habitually guilty of that never shows up as a turnover.Steve goes into a dribble, dribble, dribble mode where he never releases the ball and ends up takingan ill advised chuck shot that almost never goes in. While its not counted as a turnover it actually is.Steve is an excellent shooter when he has a chance to get "set". That is why I long for him to be at the two guard spot. Where he can receive a pass when he is open and then shoot his excellent trey ball.Coach Dambrot is enanmored with Steve at the point. The rest of us are seeing that Steve is a much better two guard.

[Dr Z]

Had to laugh at the Ali Kart reference. Most of these folks weren't even alive when Ali chucked up a senseless desperation shot when he could have driven to the basket uncontested and given the Zips an upset win over then ninth ranked Xavier.

I'll never forget that play as long as I live. I'm impressed you remember X's ranking. McNeese makes me nutz at the point, only reading rationalizing stats makes me more nutz. I wish we had a point guard. Can we PLEASE get one of those next year.

[GoZips]

Had to laugh at the Ali Kart reference. Most of these folks weren't even alive when Ali chucked up a senseless desperation shot when he could have driven to the basket uncontested and given the Zips an upset win over then ninth ranked Xavier.

I'll never forget that play as long as I live. I'm impressed you remember X's ranking. McNeese makes me nutz at the point, only reading rationalizing stats makes me more nutz. I wish we had a point guard. Can we PLEASE get one of those next year.

DrZ, we already have two excellent point guards. Both Humpty and Ronnie Steward are excellentpoints. Especially Ronnie if he is given a chance. Here is a tip that will get me in trouble with KD. Ronnie and to some extent, Humpty are disheartenedwatching Steve play the point when they know they are better players at that position. KD has rosecolored glasses on regarding McNees. Now, for the umpteenth time: I would love to see Steve on the floor. At the shooting guard positionis where he is of the greatest value to the Zips. But, I'm just a more stupid fan than the rest of you.Oh, how do I know these things? To start with, where do I have my season tickets? Enough said.

[Zip Watcher]

I'll say that I prefer McNees to run the point over both of the other guys. Ronnie needs some time & I think he'll be fine. Humpty is Russel Branyan, strike out or grand slam.Steve is generally pretty steady, and it's my feeling at the games that the Zips generally play better as a team with him out there. Even when he's out there with Humpty, Steve runs the point, not Humpty.I can't pin Steve's TO at the end strictly on him. Roberts fell (or was tripped) down. Steve wasn't throwing to ZZZips.He's not a perfect player, but for me, he's the best floor general we've got.

[Dave in Green]

I've said many times on this forum that I think McNees could be a much higher percentage shooter if he didn't have the responsibility of running the point. I've said I hoped that the other Zips point guards would step up and win point time away from McNees so he could spend more time at shooting guard and focus more on getting open looks.Only KD knows for sure why this hasn't happened. He's the one who makes the calls on who's best at each position in each circumstance. From watching and evaluating all the Zips practices and game play, KD obviously believes that no one has stepped forward and proven they can do a better job at the point in most situations than McNees.Whether that's the responsibility of the other guards for not proving themselves when given the opportunity or the responsibility of the coach for not giving them enough opportunity is pure speculation.Some notion can be found in the stats, though they don't always tell the whole story. Thanks to Nav, we now have the benefit of yet another measuring tool for player performance. Nav's +/- analysis of last night's game shows McNees at +18. The next closest Zips player was B. McKnight at +8.But for those who don't trust stats, the option is always there to let your emotions be your guide and continue to rag on the coaches and players for every perceived imperfection you think you saw and think you understand better than the coaches and players.The most popular sport on the planet, after all, is second-guessing sports decisions. It's the single biggest generator of message volume on sports forums around the world.

[Jalapeño Zippy]

based on the +/- the best starting backcorut we have would probably put Ronnie at the 1 and McNees at the 2. Thoughts?

[MDZip]

based on the +/- the best starting backcorut we have would probably put Ronnie at the 1 and McNees at the 2. Thoughts?

I don't know if you can make an argument on position based on those stats, but you do have to examine a few games before trends are evident. Nav was nice enough to post the stats on a couple of other games here for CMU:http://zipsnation.org/forums//index.php?showtopic=17195and here for the first Ohio game:http://zipsnation.org/forums//index.php?showtopic=17194and it is pretty clear that Steve should be on the court somewhere for some serious minutes. What position and whether he should be in for "clutch" minutes can't be determined this way but it does seem like we are a better team when he is on the floor. No one else stands out quite like he does in terms of the Zips outscoring the oppostion when a player is on the floor.

[Captain Kangaroo]

But for those who don't trust stats, the option is always there to let your emotions be your guide and continue to rag on the coaches and players for every perceived imperfection you think you saw and think you understand better than the coaches and players.

So it's either "stats" or "emotion?" How about "stats," and "having a free-thinking bone in your head to decide on one's own what one just witnessed?" If games were played by computers, then reading stats would be the perfect way to follow a team. Hell...there'd be no need to watch a game. The stats would be a 100% perfect representation of the competiton. But...sadly for Stat Guy...the games are played by human beings. Coaching decisions are made by human beings. Fatigue comes into play. Mental toughness comes into play. Crowd noise effects the game. Referees decisions affect the outcome. Things occur late in a game that don't occur at the 10-minute mark of the first half. Hustle-plays can win games, but cannot be quantified by statistics. And on and on and on...Some fans have the ability to blindly trust every move a player or coaching staff makes, accept those moves, applaud them and walk away from the game with no desire to kibitz about how the game played-out. To take the game at face value.Other fans value the human element of the games over statistics. Which team competed harder...which player shined over the others...which coaching decisions were puzzling and which were dead-nutz on, which player obviously didn't come to play on a given day...etc. They enjoy discussion of the game's ebb & flow. Of speculating how things may have turned out differently under alternate scenarios.I learn WAY more from reading this board and seeing how other human beings viewed the game I just witnessed than I ever could by evaluating a +/- sheet. People who need such stats to tell them what they just witnessed first-hand wasted their money on a game ticket.Viva the post-game kibitz - be it @ BW-3's, or the Internet!

[MDZip]

Regardless of stats, individual players, clutch games, in the end analysis, this looks awfully nice again (isn't awfully nice an oxymoron?):

[Zip Watcher]

But for those who don't trust stats, the option is always there to let your emotions be your guide and continue to rag on the coaches and players for every perceived imperfection you think you saw and think you understand better than the coaches and players.

So it's either "stats" or "emotion?" How about "stats," and "having a free-thinking bone in your head to decide on one's own what one just witnessed?" If games were played by computers, then reading stats would be the perfect way to follow a team. Hell...there'd be no need to watch a game. The stats would be a 100% perfect representation of the competiton. But...sadly for Stat Guy...the games are played by human beings. Coaching decisions are made by human beings. Fatigue comes into play. Mental toughness comes into play. Crowd noise effects the game. Referees decisions affect the outcome. Things occur late in a game that don't occur at the 10-minute mark of the first half. Hustle-plays can win games, but cannot be quantified by statistics. And on and on and on...Some fans have the ability to blindly trust every move a player or coaching staff makes, accept those moves, applaud them and walk away from the game with no desire to kibitz about how the game played-out. To take the game at face value.Other fans value the human element of the games over statistics. Which team competed harder...which player shined over the others...which coaching decisions were puzzling and which were dead-nutz on, which player obviously didn't come to play on a given day...etc. They enjoy discussion of the game's ebb & flow. Of speculating how things may have turned out differently under alternate scenarios.I learn WAY more from reading this board and seeing how other human beings viewed the game I just witnessed than I ever could by evaluating a +/- sheet. People who need such stats to tell them what they just witnessed first-hand wasted their money on a game ticket.Viva the post-game kibitz - be it @ BW-3's, or the Internet!

Great post, CK. Viva indeed. B) B) Go Zips!

[Zips Win!]

I'll say that I prefer McNees to run the point over both of the other guys. Ronnie needs some time & I think he'll be fine. Humpty is Russel Branyan, strike out or grand slam.Steve is generally pretty steady, and it's my feeling at the games that the Zips generally play better as a team with him out there. Even when he's out there with Humpty, Steve runs the point, not Humpty.I can't pin Steve's TO at the end strictly on him. Roberts fell (or was tripped) down. Steve wasn't throwing to ZZZips.He's not a perfect player, but for me, he's the best floor general we've got.

Here I disagree. I prefer Humpty...But to be fair, every game is different. At CMU, it was important to play McNees...yeserday I did not get that vibe. His shot was off and when the ball stops going in the hole, the offense seems to get stagnant with him at the point.What hasn't happened this year is KD playing all three guards! Humpty, McNess and Roberts...As CK mentioned, discussing the ebb and flow of the game is fun. It's not a criticism of KD. Bottom line, if a player plays as KD expects him to, he will get the minutes. If not, KD takes advantage of the free substitution rule and makes a change. (I wonder if Caleb would coach any different with this rule in soccer)I did see an awfully athletic OU team yesterday. Heck, I thought Bardo gave us three great minutes- stopping Cooper from penetrating so deep and boxing out preventing any more offensive rebounds..I thought he deserved more minutes down the stretch..

[Valpo Zip]

I can't believe i am saying this since i may have looked like Bardo's biggest hater at times. Anyways, i thought that Bardo was huge in the few minutes he played yesterday. He had that fierce look in his eyes and he did a great job considering the short time he got.

[Dave in Green]

But for those who don't trust stats, the option is always there to let your emotions be your guide and continue to rag on the coaches and players for every perceived imperfection you think you saw and think you understand better than the coaches and players.

So it's either "stats" or "emotion?" How about "stats," and "having a free-thinking bone in your head to decide on one's own what one just witnessed?" If games were played by computers, then reading stats would be the perfect way to follow a team. Hell...there'd be no need to watch a game. The stats would be a 100% perfect representation of the competiton. But...sadly for Stat Guy...the games are played by human beings. Coaching decisions are made by human beings. Fatigue comes into play. Mental toughness comes into play. Crowd noise effects the game. Referees decisions affect the outcome. Things occur late in a game that don't occur at the 10-minute mark of the first half. Hustle-plays can win games, but cannot be quantified by statistics. And on and on and on...Some fans have the ability to blindly trust every move a player or coaching staff makes, accept those moves, applaud them and walk away from the game with no desire to kibitz about how the game played-out. To take the game at face value.Other fans value the human element of the games over statistics. Which team competed harder...which player shined over the others...which coaching decisions were puzzling and which were dead-nutz on, which player obviously didn't come to play on a given day...etc. They enjoy discussion of the game's ebb & flow. Of speculating how things may have turned out differently under alternate scenarios.I learn WAY more from reading this board and seeing how other human beings viewed the game I just witnessed than I ever could by evaluating a +/- sheet. People who need such stats to tell them what they just witnessed first-hand wasted their money on a game ticket.Viva the post-game kibitz - be it @ BW-3's, or the Internet!

If I trusted my eyes or your eyes, I would have thought McNees just threw the ball away. In my case, someone next to me happened to see Roberts fall. Unfortunately, you left the game believing what your eyes told you. Your eyes also apparently failed to see Rasor's comment about Roberts fall resulting in the McNees pass out of bounds.That's a great example of why it pays not to base one's opinion completely on what one has seen with one's own eyes, or in this case, not seen. Relying only on stats can also lead one astray. But considering as much empirical and statistical data as possible, taking the results of one's own analysis with a grain of salt and not jumping to conclusions will generally lead to more educated and accurate observations.There's a pretty good discussion on this going on in the Nav's Hoops Stats thread.

[RACER]

i guess steve was passing the two 30 ft wo balls that went up towards the basket,and ronnie fell down on those two also.stats don't matter.all that maters is getting dunked over on national tv.the play even made sports center.i am not saying steve should not play,but his pt doesn't justify his min.

[Dave in Green]

To be effective, all playing time complaints should be addressed directly to KD. He's the only one who can do anything about it.

[GoZips]

i guess steve was passing the two 30 ft wo balls that went up towards the basket,and ronnie fell down on those two also.stats don't matter.all that maters is getting dunked over on national tv.the play even made sports center.i am not saying steve should not play,but his pt doesn't justify his min.

RACER, Steve McNees belongs on the floor the major of minutes (in excess of 20-25). Steveplays excellent defense. Steve is showing signs of leadership which this team badly needs. Looks likea couple of others are starting to man up as well.That idiot dunking over Steve is no mark against Steve. Pardo is lucky he didn't try that stunt over me.His nuts would have ended up in his throat.

[OZoner]

Crunch time is when players either wilt or shine. There's no stat for guys that are clutch, and those who aren't. Their box scores can look identical.

82games.com takes umbrage with this statement.

[Dave in Green]

The "clutch" stats on 82games.com are interesting. Apparently they developed their own specific definition of "clutch" and then created a program to sort the raw NBA stats. Their definition isn't bad, but I can see where other people might want to define it a little differently. Haven't seen anything like this for NCAA games, but it seems like a fairly simple calculation program for an experienced programmer with a little free time.CORRECTION: There are several "clutch" stats categories for NCAA games on statsheet.com .

[RACER]

when steve is making his 3 pt shots he is an assett to the team.when he is not making them in a certian game then he hurtsthe team.kd should have enough sense to take him ,but he does not.he's the coach so at the end of the season he is responsible.the only two complaints i have are playing zeke more which kd is doing,and watching steve's min.if he is hitting his 3pt keep him in.

[zippy5]

when steve is making his 3 pt shots he is an assett to the team.when he is not making them in a certian game then he hurtsthe team.kd should have enough sense to take him ,but he does not.he's the coach so at the end of the season he is responsible.the only two complaints i have are playing zeke more which kd is doing,and watching steve's min.if he is hitting his 3pt keep him in.

And he will turn into our other three point specialist faster than you can say McLanahan. How is he supposed to have any confidence shooting the three knowing that two misses and he's out. Shooters shoot.