Butler and The Zips

[Zip_ME87]

This post isn't a rant against Zip_ME87, who is my buddy. But his post brought to the surface a complaint that's always bugged me.

Didn't take it personally...just a difference of opinion. My point is that Zips basketball could get us (or could have kept) out of the "God-forsaken MAC" if focus were put on it. Whereas you say (paraphrased) 'the University never successfully formulated, and followed through with, a plan to get students to the games'; I would say that UA never successfully formulated and followed through with a plan to make it big time in college sports. They keep trying in football even though, IMHO, basketball is closer---Basketball was close in the mid-80's...UA chased the coach away. Basketball has made a comeback in the mid-2000s, and the focus is still not there. I honestly don't mean to "bash" Akron Football. I support Akron Football and have had season tickets for sometime now (not as long as you/others because I lived out of state for 11 years.), but I think we could get further faster with more focus on basketball. Too bad Infocision wasn't built for soccer and football....UA could be the Seattle Sounders of College Soccer, 30,000+ a game to watch the nation's best college soccer team!

[Blue & Gold]

Wow, I sure prefer Gary Waters' quote to KD's.

"I have the main pieces in place - a great arena, the support of the president and athletic director. Now we just need to get the players."

-Gary Waters

"The only downside is it might raise some unrealistic expectations... Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four."

-KD

Check your facts...I believe "Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four." was not part of KD's quote. That was Terry Pluto's inference.

Whoops! Sorry about the misquote. Zip_ME87 is absolutely correct.

"The only downside is it might raise some unrealistic expectations," was KD's quote.

"...Maybe we should get a new coach to lead us to the Final Four," was simply (as Zip_ME87 rightly pointed out) Terry Pluto's inference.

Thanks for the correction!

[Dave in Green]

Dambrot should be ashamed of making such silly comments as of downsides of Butler making it to the finals.

For some reason, i am starting to feel that all KD does is looking for excuses in everything. First it is the fans, second the other teams who will not come play us in the JAR, and then it is Butler because they mannaged to win... It is getting old.

First of all, try to understand how a newspaper reporter works. Many questions are asked, many answers are given, and the reporter chooses what he wants to use to make the points he thinks need to be made for an interesting story. When more than one person is interviewed and similar answers are given to similar questions, the reporter may toss a coin on who to quote on that particular subject.

So don't assume that KD made a special point of making the comment about the downside of Butler making it to the finals. The reporter may have asked both coaches if they saw a downside, and just elected to run with KD's response.

A question about higher expectations is simply a realistic reflection of a common thought that might occur to any mid-major coach under the circumstances. It's one thing to have realistic expectations that a mid-major is capable of accomplishing a little more than was previously thought. Unrealistic expectations set in when people start thinking it's possible to achieve this without all the right pieces being in place. Even mid-major coaching golden boy Mark Few at Gonzaga might be wondering what his school's executives are thinking after all of the money and effort they've poured into Gonzaga's program, only to see Butler beat them to the national championship game.

Looking at what Gary Waters' was quoted as saying, I'm struck by the potentially damaging aspect of his quote about having everything he needs except the players. I'll bet that all of his current players feel real good about that, and I'm darn glad it wasn't KD quoted as saying that.

Brad Stevens didn't achieve what he did by out-recruiting the big schools for a bunch of 4-star players. He took his share of the leftovers like every other mid-major program and coached them all to do their best as a team all of the time. If it was Waters' Cleveland State that had made it to the championship game and Stevens was asked what he needed to get there, I'm pretty sure from everything I've read about the man that he would not blame it on lack of good players.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

[UAZipster0305]

Now we have a $61M football stadium and a 3-9 football team that plays in it. In football, Akron has played for and won 1 MAC championship with a 5-3 conference record. In basketball, with no new facilities, we've competed in the MAC Tourney Championship game 4 years in a row. Yes, we've only won 1, but we've been there 4 years in a row. Yes, basketball needs to improve, but to do so, the University and alumni need to commit to it.

When I was at the basketball golf outing, during the Q & A session a guy asked KD (a set up, "softball" question of the year, with added $40million dollar exaggeration) -- "How do you feel about the football program getting a $100million dollar stadium, when you are playing in an old arena. And all you've done is win 20 games year-in-year-out, and you're coming off an NCAA Tourney berth?"

Dambrot's reply is irrelevant. To me, what is relevant, is the basketball vs. football mentality that the guy exuded. The fact that he's baiting KD to bash the Zips football program was beyond shameful.

Memo to "Basketball Guy":

* The football team is the only program that can draw 30,000 people to a game. Basketball's best draw is 5,500.

* The football team is the only program that can net $700,000 by playing an away game at Penn State

* The football team sacrifices it's coach's record by playing a lot of essentially unwinnable BCS-level road games, to get cash for the Zips Athletic Department.

* The Zips football program played in a total dump of a stadium for the past 25 years

* Most importantly - Infocision Stadium is Zips Basketball Guy's only ticket out of this God-forsaken MAC Conference. Without it, you're watching home-home series with the Eastern Michigan's of the world for the rest of your life.

This post isn't a rant against Zip_ME87, who is my buddy. But his post brought to the surface a complaint that's always bugged me.

Basketball guy needs to quit directing his anger at Zips football, and find another scapegoat...villain...whatever you want to call it...for the basketball program's shortcomings.

It is proven that a 20-win, MAC Champion Zips men's hoops team will draw, on-average, 3,000 fans. That ain't football's fault.

Blame Dambrot, who considered this season a "rebuilding year" even though he only lost 1 player from an NCAA Tourney qualifier, and brought in a highly-touted 7-footer to replace him on the roster.

Blame the soft schedule, that excited absolutely no one.

Blame the lack of eye-catching wins over marquee teams (Florida State was long, long ago)

Blame the team that won 24 games, yet got waxed by pretty much every decent team they competed against.

Blame our lethargic approach to home games (remember when we NEVER lost at the JAR?)

Blame the lack of a "star," must-see player.

Blame the JAR team shop, who doesn't sell Zips Basketball replica jerseys (we wouldn't want little kids wearing such things to games, or around town, would we?)

Blame the $3.00 hotdogs and understaffed concession lines (even with our weak crowds)

Blame the lethargic blue hairs that seem to prefer staying home and watching "The Golden Girls" reruns to watching Zips hoops

Blame the University for never successfully formulating, and following through with, a plan to get students to the games

Blame the tragedy that is The Tommy Evans Lounge (what did poor Tommy ever do to get his name associated with it...whatever it was, it must have been really awful)

Blame Marketing for lack of interesting promotions (boy, weren't halftimes a hoot this season?)

Dambrot promised a brutal off-season for his returning players, in an attempt to toughen them up for 2010-11. It will be interesting to see if Winstrcill matches that change-of-approach with the other aspects of the basketball program such as Marketing and Promotions.

There is a laundry list of basketball-related things proven to coma-tize Joe Akron. I don't want to see them again.

If I do see them again, don't blame the football program.

And as a final note of clarification - I attended 7 football games this year, and 20+ basketball games. And 7 soccer matches. Between season tickets and donations, UA is into my pocket for about $3,000 this past athletics season. I love Dambrot. I also love Zips football, and tailgating.

If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers.

Big changes are needed. No one should be happy with a 1/2 empty JAR.

Please allow me to add to your list, CK: the loss at home to Austin Peay to start the season. Any Joe Akron who was interested and on the band wagon following the NCAA Tournament appearance quickly elected to jump off. Even if AP was really good, no one wants to see a home loss to a small (dare I say, no name) OVC school to start the season. If we are going to get beat at home to open the season, let's get beat by Purdue, Cincy, Xavier, Dayton, or Southern Illinois. At least those schools have recognizable programs and would not murder our RPI (cough, AP, cough). If we schedule a school like AP we HAVE to beat them...especially at home...no excuses.

[mes102]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

Might be nice if you spelled his name right. And second, i don't want to get started on this again please

[Dave in Green]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

Stick with football.

[Captain Kangaroo]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

Stick with football.

1.) One of D.I.G's all time best posts

2.) I think we have located the elusive "Joe Akron." Who knew he was right under our noses all these years?!

[Zip_ME87]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

Stick with football.

1.) One of D.I.G's all time best posts

2.) I think we have located the elusive "Joe Akron." Who knew he was right under our noses all these years?!

+1

[you am i]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

Stick with football.

1.) One of D.I.G's all time best posts

2.) I think we have located the elusive "Joe Akron." Who knew he was right under our noses all these years?!

+1

You're going to need the support of Joe Akron if you ever want to see basketball be a big draw.

[ctmjbowes@sbcglobal.net]

Great. I guess I am Joe Akron when it comes to Akron BB. That changes the points I made exactly how?

Until there is a more compelling product for Joe Akron to pay to see, I guess it'll be you three and a few hundred others, wondering why nobody comes out to watch the Zips play.

[Zip_ME87]

Great. I guess I am Joe Akron when it comes to Akron BB. That changes the points I made exactly how?

Until there is a more compelling product for Joe Akron to pay to see, I guess it'll be you three and a few hundred others, wondering why nobody comes out to watch the Zips play.

STZ, I didn't mean anything derogatory about you by agreeing with DiG and CK. In your original post, you stated "I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me." If this is the case, then it seems to me that Akron BB will probably never "grab you"?

[Dave in Green]

SeeTeeZip, you said you try watching the premier college BB teams on the tube and the whole package doesn't grab you because you have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, lack of size and the silly length of the shot clock. And that's the premier teams, the best, the cream of the crop.

Even if the Zips were to become a premier team and win the national championship, by your standards they'd still lack skill and size, and they'd still be playing with that silly long shot clock. It wouldn't grab you. You'd still prefer the pro game WAY more than college BB.

Given all of the above, there's nothing the Zips BB team can do to please you because you don't particularly care for the sport they are playing. There's nothing wrong with that. Not everyone has to like every sport. We all have our favorites.

That's why I respectfully suggested that you just stick with football, which you obviously do enjoy and appreciate.

[GP1]

Now we have a $61M football stadium and a 3-9 football team that plays in it. In football, Akron has played for and won 1 MAC championship with a 5-3 conference record. In basketball, with no new facilities, we've competed in the MAC Tourney Championship game 4 years in a row. Yes, we've only won 1, but we've been there 4 years in a row. Yes, basketball needs to improve, but to do so, the University and alumni need to commit to it.

When I was at the basketball golf outing, during the Q & A session a guy asked KD (a set up, "softball" question of the year, with added $40million dollar exaggeration) -- "How do you feel about the football program getting a $100million dollar stadium, when you are playing in an old arena. And all you've done is win 20 games year-in-year-out, and you're coming off an NCAA Tourney berth?"

Dambrot's reply is irrelevant. To me, what is relevant, is the basketball vs. football mentality that the guy exuded. The fact that he's baiting KD to bash the Zips football program was beyond shameful.

Memo to "Basketball Guy":

* The football team is the only program that can draw 30,000 people to a game. Basketball's best draw is 5,500.

* The football team is the only program that can net $700,000 by playing an away game at Penn State

* The football team sacrifices it's coach's record by playing a lot of essentially unwinnable BCS-level road games, to get cash for the Zips Athletic Department.

* The Zips football program played in a total dump of a stadium for the past 25 years

* Most importantly - Infocision Stadium is Zips Basketball Guy's only ticket out of this God-forsaken MAC Conference. Without it, you're watching home-home series with the Eastern Michigan's of the world for the rest of your life.

This post isn't a rant against Zip_ME87, who is my buddy. But his post brought to the surface a complaint that's always bugged me.

Basketball guy needs to quit directing his anger at Zips football, and find another scapegoat...villain...whatever you want to call it...for the basketball program's shortcomings.

It is proven that a 20-win, MAC Champion Zips men's hoops team will draw, on-average, 3,000 fans. That ain't football's fault.

Blame Dambrot, who considered this season a "rebuilding year" even though he only lost 1 player from an NCAA Tourney qualifier, and brought in a highly-touted 7-footer to replace him on the roster.

Blame the soft schedule, that excited absolutely no one.

Blame the lack of eye-catching wins over marquee teams (Florida State was long, long ago)

Blame the team that won 24 games, yet got waxed by pretty much every decent team they competed against.

Blame our lethargic approach to home games (remember when we NEVER lost at the JAR?)

Blame the lack of a "star," must-see player.

Blame the JAR team shop, who doesn't sell Zips Basketball replica jerseys (we wouldn't want little kids wearing such things to games, or around town, would we?)

Blame the $3.00 hotdogs and understaffed concession lines (even with our weak crowds)

Blame the lethargic blue hairs that seem to prefer staying home and watching "The Golden Girls" reruns to watching Zips hoops

Blame the University for never successfully formulating, and following through with, a plan to get students to the games

Blame the tragedy that is The Tommy Evans Lounge (what did poor Tommy ever do to get his name associated with it...whatever it was, it must have been really awful)

Blame Marketing for lack of interesting promotions (boy, weren't halftimes a hoot this season?)

Dambrot promised a brutal off-season for his returning players, in an attempt to toughen them up for 2010-11. It will be interesting to see if Winstrcill matches that change-of-approach with the other aspects of the basketball program such as Marketing and Promotions.

There is a laundry list of basketball-related things proven to coma-tize Joe Akron. I don't want to see them again.

If I do see them again, don't blame the football program.

And as a final note of clarification - I attended 7 football games this year, and 20+ basketball games. And 7 soccer matches. Between season tickets and donations, UA is into my pocket for about $3,000 this past athletics season. I love Dambrot. I also love Zips football, and tailgating.

If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers.

Big changes are needed. No one should be happy with a 1/2 empty JAR.

Amen.

Take away football and the Athletic Department dies.

Basketball could make more money if they played more money games.

[GP1]

Didn't take it personally...just a difference of opinion. My point is that Zips basketball could get us (or could have kept) out of the "God-forsaken MAC" if focus were put on it.

To where?

Are you saying we could be the next Seton Hall or Providence of the Big East? Wow, that sounds great.

There is something basketball fans need to understand. The mid west is a football area. Basketball is something that takes place between football season and spring football. The football team pays the price for keeping the Athletic Department (yes, that means the basketball team) in business. The football team pays the price for paying KDs bloated salary, which I'm sure is not covered by the overflow crowds packing the JAR to watch them play the crappy schedule they play. The football team makes it so the basketball team can continue to dodge every decent team out there in order to continue their "building process". My guess is this "building process" will continue well into the next decade with little change.

Take away the football team and everything else wilts.

Good night.

[Zip_ME87]

And as a final note of clarification - I attended 7 football games this year, and 20+ basketball games. And 7 soccer matches. Between season tickets and donations, UA is into my pocket for about $3,000 this past athletics season. I love Dambrot. I also love Zips football, and tailgating.

If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers.

Big changes are needed. No one should be happy with a 1/2 empty JAR.

After re-reading your post, I must agree with this (which I overlooked previously)..."If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers." I'll stop pointing fingers because I believe it is all about winning. If Zips Men's Basketball can win games against quality opponents, then "Joe Akron" will come to games as proven, in my opinion, by the 2009 Zips Men's Soccer Team. I know from personal experience that some "Joe Cleveland"'s (who are not Akron alumni) came to several games including the 4200+ against Tulsa just to see great soccer. It will be interesting to see how that translates this Fall. Unfortunately, Akron will be playing many of the Big 10 opponents on the road this year since we played so many of them at home last year. Our big OOC draws at home this year will likely be Tulsa and Michigan.

[Zip_ME87]

Take away the football team and everything else wilts.

Good night.

How do athletic programs such as Gonzaga's and Cleveland State's survive?

[ZachTheZip]

Take away the football team and everything else wilts.

Good night.

How do athletic programs such as Gonzaga's and Cleveland State's survive?

Gonzaga has built a big enough fan base that they survive off of donations. CSU leeches from Butler's success via NCAA payouts.

[Captain Kangaroo]

CSU leeches from Butler's success via NCAA payouts.

Yeah...that Waters guy can't coach for a lick, and that NCAA Tourney win in 2009 was a total fluke. CSU is a remora on Butler's belly.

Are you for real? You can't possibly believe the stuff you write.

[ZachTheZip]

Are you for real? You can't possibly believe the stuff you write.

I was being sarcastic about CSU. A significant amount of their athletic income comes from renting out the Wolstein Center for events.

[Zip Watcher]

Take away the football team and everything else wilts.

Good night.

How do athletic programs such as Gonzaga's and Cleveland State's survive?

Maybe because they don't have a 6 or 7 figure red number in their budget labeled "Net Football Profits?"

[Valpo Zip]

A couple points which may be relevant to the discussion. I am a completely half-assed college BB fan, and I enjoy the pro game WAY more than college BB. I watch even the premier college BB teams on the tube and have a hard time getting past their lack of skill, their lack of size, the silly length of the clock shot, just the whole package doesn't grab me. I went to all of one game at the JAR this year. It was the Can't game, and once I got past my general lack of interest in college BB, I couldn't believe how unathletic and just boring the Zips were. Is this a team close to anything other than mediocrity?

Here are the things I think of when it comes to Zips BB:

1) Guys, it's dead nuts winter. Cold, and the thought of walking from the car to the JAR in the winter to watch the Zips is like 60 to zero, right now baby.

2) The teams on the home schedule are generally, well, crap. Very, very uninteresting schedule. Pay me to attend and I might consider some of those games.

3) Who am I going to watch once I get there? McNeese and his funky shot that is streaky as hell? His mediocre ball handling? Humpty and his frenetic but pointless motion? Zeke, who doesn't yet have the strength to hold onto the ball in the post? The McKnights, who appear to fade into the background when the pressure is on?

Honestly, I had much more fun at dinner and in conversation with the people we went to the game with than I did watching KD and the gang. If the basic question is whether the Zips are anywhere close to putting a compelling product on the floor, my answer would be hell no.

STZ:

I can say the same exact things about our football program. You can say that you prefer the pro game and that the zips players are all too small, too slow and not very skilled. Why do you still watch Zips football? At least the basketball team competes for its conference title every year.

Others:

None of our athletic teams supports itself (let alone support other sports). Football generates the largest chunk of income but also spends the largest chunk of the budget. In fact, last time i looked at numbers, football had the biggest deficit margin of all sports.

Edit: just saw ZW's post about red numbers. Sorry about the redundancy.

[vmd9]

Are you for real? You can't possibly believe the stuff you write.

I was being sarcastic about CSU. A significant amount of their athletic income comes from renting out the Wolstein Center for events.

Like I've been saying a million times...why aren't there any damn concerts at InfoCision Stadium! haha, we could bring in a ton of money, but we just have that place sitting empty. While the best concerts UA can come up with are Nora Jones and TSO at EJ? and some marching band at the stadium? what a waste.....

[Zip Watcher]

Now we have a $61M football stadium and a 3-9 football team that plays in it. In football, Akron has played for and won 1 MAC championship with a 5-3 conference record. In basketball, with no new facilities, we've competed in the MAC Tourney Championship game 4 years in a row. Yes, we've only won 1, but we've been there 4 years in a row. Yes, basketball needs to improve, but to do so, the University and alumni need to commit to it.

+1 , we need to find a way to bring the hoops (men's & women's) team facilities up to par with what we've done w/ FB and are in the process of doing in Futbol. Money doesn't grow on trees. But we have dug a nice hole to address the woeful FB facilities ... somehow, someway, the hoops teams facilities need the same attention .. and it will be at a FRACTION of the cost of the FB investment.

When I was at the basketball golf outing, during the Q & A session a guy asked KD (a set up, "softball" question of the year, with added $40million dollar exaggeration) -- "How do you feel about the football program getting a $100million dollar stadium, when you are playing in an old arena. And all you've done is win 20 games year-in-year-out, and you're coming off an NCAA Tourney berth?"

Dambrot's reply is irrelevant. To me, what is relevant, is the basketball vs. football mentality that the guy exuded. The fact that he's baiting KD to bash the Zips football program was beyond shameful.

And did KD take the bait? Not so much.

Memo to "Basketball Guy":

* The football team is the only program that can draw 30,000 people to a game. Basketball's best draw is 5,500.

* The football team is the only program that can net $700,000 by playing an away game at Penn State

* The football team sacrifices it's coach's record by playing a lot of essentially unwinnable BCS-level road games, to get cash for the Zips Athletic Department.

* The Zips football program played in a total dump of a stadium for the past 25 years

* Most importantly - Infocision Stadium is Zips Basketball Guy's only ticket out of this God-forsaken MAC Conference. Without it, you're watching home-home series with the Eastern Michigan's of the world for the rest of your life.

Basketball Guy here. I don't have tons of detail or stats to back this up .. so I'm hoping that ZachTheKid has this handy or D.I.G can corroborate.

1. I agree with every point you make above except the last one. No question about the draw, the BCS money games on the road, or the FB facilities of years past. Everyone agrees with you here.

2. But it's selective to just list these things out. It's one thing if the FB team is bringing in 700k to the department and paying for itself. This is what happens in places like tOSU and Texas. It's NOT what's happening here, is it? Is the FB team operating in the black? Breaking even? {help me out here Zach .. I know you've posted this over at the bbs somewhat recently}

3. I'm ignoring the capital improvements end of it, because I think the strategy of the U is sound on this one. But until the FB team brings in enough coin due to filling up the Info and sacrificing themselves at the altar of the BCS that it even covers it's own operating expenditures, let's not pretend that FB is some sugar daddy for the rest of the Athletic Department, because it's not. It's been chasing it's own budget in a losing battle thus far.

4. At a minimum, I think the programs are on equal ground. Neither is hugely profitable, and neither should be abandoned for the benefit of the other. But one has been markedly more successful in competition over the past six years, while seeing little or no capital investment to further its improvements.

5. If there were no FB @ UA, the Zips wouldn't be in the MAC, as a matter of conference charter. It's perfectly reasonable to presume that had the Zips stayed FCS in the 80's, they'd be in the Horizon with their old OVC rival, YSU. Certainly not a step down, IMO.

This post isn't a rant against Zip_ME87, who is my buddy. But his post brought to the surface a complaint that's always bugged me.

Basketball guy needs to quit directing his anger at Zips football, and find another scapegoat...villain...whatever you want to call it...for the basketball program's shortcomings.

I don't really see any basketball guys directing anger at Zips Football. Most of us are Football guy by proxy also .. and just want a little attention paid to the backend of the program to help keep momentum going. I think you might be overstating the energy level.

And FB guy needs to not be so defensive and pretend there's some nirvana going on over at the Info and FB program which makes it the only program worthy of investment and time. ALL the Zips facilities sucked before Thomas & Proenza arrived. FB wasn't the only one. I understand that Rifle's still do .. and I'm sure they lose less money than every other sport in the department. Stating these facts doesn't mean any of us want the Info torn down for bricks for a new hoops arena, does it?

It is proven that a 20-win, MAC Champion Zips men's hoops team will draw, on-average, 3,000 fans. That ain't football's fault.

Who's blaming FB? It is also proven that a defending MAC Champion Zips FB team can't draw flies .. so what? Whose fault was that?

Blame Dambrot, who considered this season a "rebuilding year" even though he only lost 1 player from an NCAA Tourney qualifier, and brought in a highly-touted 7-footer to replace him on the roster.

Blame the soft schedule, that excited absolutely no one.

Blame the lack of eye-catching wins over marquee teams (Florida State was long, long ago)

Blame the team that won 24 games, yet got waxed by pretty much every decent team they competed against.

Blame our lethargic approach to home games (remember when we NEVER lost at the JAR?)

Blame the lack of a "star," must-see player.

Blame the JAR team shop, who doesn't sell Zips Basketball replica jerseys (we wouldn't want little kids wearing such things to games, or around town, would we?)

Blame the $3.00 hotdogs and understaffed concession lines (even with our weak crowds)

Blame the lethargic blue hairs that seem to prefer staying home and watching "The Golden Girls" reruns to watching Zips hoops

Blame the University for never successfully formulating, and following through with, a plan to get students to the games

Blame the tragedy that is The Tommy Evans Lounge (what did poor Tommy ever do to get his name associated with it...whatever it was, it must have been really awful)

Blame Marketing for lack of interesting promotions (boy, weren't halftimes a hoot this season?)

Dambrot promised a brutal off-season for his returning players, in an attempt to toughen them up for 2010-11. It will be interesting to see if Winstrcill matches that change-of-approach with the other aspects of the basketball program such as Marketing and Promotions.

There is a laundry list of basketball-related things proven to coma-tize Joe Akron. I don't want to see them again.

If I do see them again, don't blame the football program.

The basketball team just came off another successful season. Just as success and interest in the Zips ought not be measured by the number of emails in Terry Pluto's inbox .. then so do I think it shouldn't be measured soley by butts in the seats.

There's not a singular metric for this. Why chose one and start assessing blame?

Who's to blame for another successful season of Zips Hoops? Another appearance in a post season tournament, and a 4th CONSECUTIVE appearance on Saturday night @ the Q? I think the hard work and dedication of the coaches, players & staff is a good first place to point the finger.

ZipME's post merely illustrates that there is a need for similar improvements in the BB facilities (I'd argue mostly for the team rooms / training / video ... etc) as there has been made to FB. I think it's a bit of a defensive reaction by Football Guy to equate that to: "Basketball Guy blames FB for not getting to the Sweet 16 this year."

And as a final note of clarification - I attended 7 football games this year, and 20+ basketball games. And 7 soccer matches. Between season tickets and donations, UA is into my pocket for about $3,000 this past athletics season. I love Dambrot. I also love Zips football, and tailgating.

No one questions your dedication, nor should they. I'd classify myself as Basketball guy and I'm in more for FB than BB support at the moment .. so that probably means I'm a little to blame on the facilities problem. Facts of 2009, I'm afraid.

If we want to fill seats, we needs to work together, not point fingers.

I agree entirely?! ..

Big changes are needed. No one should be happy with a 1/2 empty JAR.

And I would argue no one should be upset with the successful product put on the floor and in the classroom this season by KD & JK. We're in the midst of a great hoops run here, and now the ladies are getting in on the action. Mostly I want Zips student athletes to be successful and have a good experience at UA. Seems to me that the hoops program is winning on those fronts. I for one am damned proud of our hoops teams, as much as ever.

B)

Go Zips!!!

[Zip_ME87]

ZipME's post merely illustrates that there is a need for similar improvements in the BB facilities (I'd argue mostly for the team rooms / training / video ... etc) as there has been made to FB. I think it's a bit of a defensive reaction by Football Guy to equate that to: "Basketball Guy blames FB for not getting to the Sweet 16 this year."

Thanks ZW. That was the point I meant to make. I actually felt bad after seeing the unintended reactions to my post because I am a Zips fan. For me the Zips are #1, be it basketball (women's and men's), soccer, football, or any other sport in which UA teams compete. My best memories of all sporting events I've ever attended were at the 2005 Motor City Bowl, the 2009 NCAA Tourney in Portland, and the 2009 College Cup in Cary, NC. (Although I must admit beating Michigan 5-1 in Ann Arbor and hearing the Rowdies chant "Brutus hates you" at the Suckeyes goalkeeper while the Zips trounced them during the regular season are up there, too. Ahhh, if the Zips could just pull off that upset at Ohio Stadium in 2011.)

Go Zips!!!