Whence the Football Program?

[GP1]

Assuming that every sport uses their full scholarship allotment (except football where we know we are under), the athletic department is responsible for the following:

Are they full scholarships, or are they partial? I'm looking at the dollar amount, not the total unit number.

[skip-zip]

I will go out on a limb and say that we don't have the financial backing to do such a thing unless a wealthy alumnus/donor comes along to provide the backing needed.

Exactly. Although we're all frustrated, and want to vent to our fellow fans, we are likely wasting our time with discussions about his dismissal. I'm guessing that we could probably put that part of the discussion on hold until at least the end of the 2012 season.

[ZachTheZip]

Assuming that every sport uses their full scholarship allotment (except football where we know we are under), the athletic department is responsible for the following:

Are they full scholarships, or are they partial? I'm looking at the dollar amount, not the total unit number.

Partial scholarships add up to whole ones. One full scholarship or two half-scholarships should add up to the same amount. Some sports are "head count" sports where everyone gets a full scholarship and partials aren't allowed, while others are "equivalent" where you get a set amount and can divide it however you want. In the end the total equivalent scholarship numbers add up to the amount I listed, no matter how it is divided among athletes. 15 full-ride scholarships is the same as 30 half-scholarships. To figure out the money, you need to find out how much the total number of scholarships, whole and partial, add up to be and then multiply that by tuition. The problem comes from in-state and out-of-state tuition rates which are vastly different. I took the average, and multiplied by the number of scholarships got $2.7 million. Football scholarships costs just over $900k. But none of that included room and board, meal plans, or book purchases.

[GoZips]

I will go out on a limb and say that we don't have the financial backing to do such a thing unless a wealthy alumnus/donor comes along to provide the backing needed.

Exactly. Although we're all frustrated, and want to vent to our fellow fans, we are likely wasting our time with discussions about his dismissal. I'm guessing that we could probably put that part of the discussion on hold until at least the end of the 2012 season.

STRONGLY DISAGREE.

We need to keep this on the front burner putting a lot of heat on Porenza and Wistrcill.

Complaciancy is our worst enemy. The message needs to be loud and often.

Tom Wistrcill needs to feel the heat. So long as his job is secure he wont act.

This must be fixed immediately if not sooner. Kick Ianello to the curb.

[GP1]

Assuming that every sport uses their full scholarship allotment (except football where we know we are under), the athletic department is responsible for the following:

Are they full scholarships, or are they partial? I'm looking at the dollar amount, not the total unit number.

Football scholarships costs just over $900k. But none of that included room and board, meal plans, or book purchases.

Without calculating room and board, meals and books, the real costs aren't being calculated. Please go back and rework the numbers. I'd like this project completed by close of business today.

[GP1]

Tom Wistrcill needs to feel the heat. So long as his job is secure he wont act.

I'd like to think he feels the heat regardless of what the fans think. When leadership of a sports organization listens to the fans, they turn into the Browns. We don't need that.

[Captain Kangaroo]

Point is... TW will be judged FIRST on football, THEN on everything else. Thats just how things go in collegiate athletics. Football is the cashcow where most of the money is spent and comes in and his grading is based accordingly. Right now, I'd give TW a C overall... Had the football hire gone better and resulted in at least a mediocre team that showed improvement, I'd give him a B-... but a C is the best I can give him right now...

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

TW was born on third base in men's basketball, men's soccer and also academics. No propaganda I read on this board can convince me otherwise.

I'm sorry, but I give TW absolutely minimal credit for anything basketball-related. Keeping KD in Akron? The Coach has stated a million times he isn't going anywhere. Pay KD a fair salary and let him do his job...that's how you handle men's basketball. If he wants to impress me in men's basketball -- fill the arena. THAT is a challenge that a quality AD should accomplish with a perrenial 20-win, NCAA-caliber program dropped on his lap.

Soccer? Do you really think TW did anything extraordinary to keep Porter here? Maybe he signed the check that Proenza handed him, but that's about it. The soccer field improvements? TW should get some credit for that...but soccer is a machine that has a small but zealous following. A following who's happy to open it's wallet and toss money at the Program.

Academics?! Mack Rhodes cleaned up UA's athletic-academics after Brookhart's recruiting debacles. What you see now is the fruit of the labor Mack put in.

To-date, Zips athletics-wise, TW should get credit for "managing-the-game." He hasn't screwed up men's basketball or men's soccer. There's certainly something to be said for that fact. If he was Dennis Helsel Jr., he'd be gone already. But until football begins winning, and InfoCision begins rocking, he's failing his core class. The class he was hired to pass.

Was TW "born on 3rd base" with football? No. He was born at the plate, down 9 runs in the 8th inning, with 2 outs and the bases empty. But as GP1 said earlier, "He's swinging at pitches being tossed into right field." That's unbelievably tough for a Zips football fan to watch.

[jupitertoo]

Ianello needs to go...

I hate to bring this up again, but I just read an article about Big East expansion. You know what schools they talked about? UCF, Temple, Navy, Army, Air Force and here's the real kicker....SMU. Now I'm not trying to be a homer but as a school, facilities, academics, and winning we are better than all of them except maybe Temple. But you know what, our football program will keep us in the MAC until it ultimately dissolves forcing us to drop back to FCS and play garbage teams like VMI and YSU every week. Now I don't see us putting 300 million into a program to watch it play against glorified high schools, but Ianello will make that happen. Now let me ask, how many schools will deal with a coach that can only win 2 games...in two years? You think OSU, Cincy, or even Can't would deal with that? Remember Rod Marinelli got fired in Detroit after 1 0-16 season? Eric Mangini got fired in Cleveland after 2 seasons and you know how many games he won 10!! are you kidding? we're giving a guy this much time after only being able to win 2 games and showing absolutely no improvement. He couldn't even beat EMU and Garnder Webb!!!

Yes, you're coming across as a homer, and a wildly uninformed one as well. Each of the schools you mention has better academics and is at least on par with Akron for facilities. And when did Akron put $300 million into football? The football stadium was $62mm, plus the fieldhouse (which is shared among sports) was $15ish, excluding the student recreation facilities.

[jupitertoo]

Ianello needs to go...

I hate to bring this up again, but I just read an article about Big East expansion. You know what schools they talked about? UCF, Temple, Navy, Army, Air Force and here's the real kicker....SMU. Now I'm not trying to be a homer but as a school, facilities, academics, and winning we are better than all of them except maybe Temple. But you know what, our football program will keep us in the MAC until it ultimately dissolves forcing us to drop back to FCS and play garbage teams like VMI and YSU every week. Now I don't see us putting 300 million into a program to watch it play against glorified high schools, but Ianello will make that happen. Now let me ask, how many schools will deal with a coach that can only win 2 games...in two years? You think OSU, Cincy, or even Can't would deal with that? Remember Rod Marinelli got fired in Detroit after 1 0-16 season? Eric Mangini got fired in Cleveland after 2 seasons and you know how many games he won 10!! are you kidding? we're giving a guy this much time after only being able to win 2 games and showing absolutely no improvement. He couldn't even beat EMU and Garnder Webb!!!

Yes, you're coming across as a homer, and a wildly uninformed one at that. Each of the schools you mention has significantly better academics and is at least on par with Akron for facilities. And when did Akron put $300 million into football? The football stadium was $62mm, plus the fieldhouse (which is shared among sports) was $15ish, excluding the student recreation facilities. You do realize, don't you, that SMU brings with it the Dallas metroplex and was a national power before getting spanked by the NCAA in the 1980s?

[Hilltopper]

I am willing to see what happens until its time to announce our next recruiting class. Someone else brought up Al Goldens first few years at Temple, where they were losing at an alarming rate on the field. The real story there was that Golden was doing a great job of recruiting some real D-1 talent. If I-coach whiffs with next years incoming class it will be a disaster. I would have preferred that we had hired a proven lower division coach, but if I-coach can pull off a good class, there might be some hope. If not, I will be here everyday calling for his ouster.

[skip-zip]

I will go out on a limb and say that we don't have the financial backing to do such a thing unless a wealthy alumnus/donor comes along to provide the backing needed.

Exactly. Although we're all frustrated, and want to vent to our fellow fans, we are likely wasting our time with discussions about his dismissal. I'm guessing that we could probably put that part of the discussion on hold until at least the end of the 2012 season.

STRONGLY DISAGREE.

We need to keep this on the front burner putting a lot of heat on Porenza and Wistrcill.

Complaciancy is our worst enemy. The message needs to be loud and often.

Tom Wistrcill needs to feel the heat. So long as his job is secure he wont act.

This must be fixed immediately if not sooner. Kick Ianello to the curb.

GoZips,

I know. I know. Every great rebellious movement started with just a few people.

Even if there is enough fan outcry for his firing, what are the chances TW gives up on his own decision that quickly? And to a much, much greater extent, as UAzipsMan suggests, what are the chances that the board would support his decision, and pay out a million dollars of public money to complete his contract while hiring another coach at a similar salary?

It's understandable that any Zips fan would have reasons to support his immediate dismissal. But, what are the chances right now that a couple dozen of us would persuade any action? It might have a minimal impact in a couple of years, but the likelihood of TW and the board coming together on this kind of action anytime soon is pretty remote.

[UAZipster0305]

I am willing to see what happens until its time to announce our next recruiting class. Someone else brought up Al Goldens first few years at Temple, where they were losing at an alarming rate on the field. The real story there was that Golden was doing a great job of recruiting some real D-1 talent. If I-coach whiffs with next years incoming class it will be a disaster. I would have preferred that we had hired a proven lower division coach, but if I-coach can pull off a good class, there might be some hope. If not, I will be here everyday calling for his ouster.

The recruitment of Chisholm last year has given me a glint of hope. Unfortunately, one outstanding player per class isn't going to cut it.

[skip-zip]

I am willing to see what happens until its time to announce our next recruiting class. Someone else brought up Al Goldens first few years at Temple, where they were losing at an alarming rate on the field. The real story there was that Golden was doing a great job of recruiting some real D-1 talent. If I-coach whiffs with next years incoming class it will be a disaster. I would have preferred that we had hired a proven lower division coach, but if I-coach can pull off a good class, there might be some hope. If not, I will be here everyday calling for his ouster.

The recruitment of Chisholm last year has given me a glint of hope. Unfortunately, one outstanding player per class isn't going to cut it.

I hope you're right about Chisholm. He's a guy who could possibly be a difference maker. Wagner is already one of those kinds of players.

But here's the problem, as you point out. A couple of guys like that isn't enough. What do you need to be successful? Maybe a minimum of 6-8 guys like that? Maybe 10 or more?

It's obvious that we are lacking talent. My fear is that, even if RI can get that kind of talent in the coming years, how long will it take before we have enough to be competitive? It's simply not looking like it's possible that it can happen soon enough to make me happy.

The only hope we have right now is that the core players are young. But, we still need at least a handful of those guys to emerge as difference makers if we have any hope of winning even a fair amount of games in the next couple of years.

[UAZipster0305]

I am willing to see what happens until its time to announce our next recruiting class. Someone else brought up Al Goldens first few years at Temple, where they were losing at an alarming rate on the field. The real story there was that Golden was doing a great job of recruiting some real D-1 talent. If I-coach whiffs with next years incoming class it will be a disaster. I would have preferred that we had hired a proven lower division coach, but if I-coach can pull off a good class, there might be some hope. If not, I will be here everyday calling for his ouster.

The recruitment of Chisholm last year has given me a glint of hope. Unfortunately, one outstanding player per class isn't going to cut it.

I hope you're right about Chisholm. He's a guy who could possibly be a difference maker. Wagner is already one of those kinds of players.

But here's the problem, as you point out. A couple of guys like that isn't enough. What do you need to be successful? Maybe a minimum of 6-8 guys like that? Maybe 10 or more?

It's obvious that we are lacking talent. My fear is that, even if RI can get that kind of talent in the coming years, how long will it take before we have enough to be competitive? It's simply not looking like it's possible that it can happen soon enough to make me happy.

The only hope we have right now is that the core players are young. But, we still need at least a handful of those guys to emerge as difference makers if we have any hope of winning even a fair amount of games in the next couple of years.

And just because we have that kind of talent doesn't mean it results in a team effort or wins. That takes coaching.

[GP1]

But here's the problem, as you point out. A couple of guys like that isn't enough. What do you need to be successful? Maybe a minimum of 6-8 guys like that? Maybe 10 or more?

Good points. Positions in need of really good players are:

1. QB

2. One good WR

3. Left tackle on offense

4. A guy like Chisholm

5. Stud defensive end

6. One really good LB

7. One really good corner

I know you guys hate when I bring up Wake Forest, but here it goes again. They are a low level ACC team that won a lot and went to a BCS game with a group similar to this. The rest of the talent on the team was average at best, but they won.

1. Riley Skinner at QB (Skinner rhymes with winner). He was a very good college QB who could run and pass AND pass on the run.

2. NFL WR Kenny Moore

3. I don't remember who their left tackle was so they were missing a little here but they had a solid front five.

4. They had 3 guys like Chisholm and they all played and were always fresh when they went in the game.

5. Don't remember the DE, but they had solid defenses because of #6 and #7 below.

6. NFL DB A. Smith (was also a great kick returner).

7. NFL stud Aaron Curry at LB

It doesn't take 11 good guys in a spread offense. They had a small number of good guys and spent every Saturday trying to find ways to get that small number the ball as much as possible. The spread allows a team to be creative. A pro offense offers little creativity.

On defense. They had two studs who could take out the other teams best WR and Curry could cover half the field by himself on running plays.

I don't expect the Zips to have seven guys as good as Wake did, but I do expect them to have seven guys who are good enough to win in the MAC. Right now, we have 1.5 of the guys we need in Chisholm and Wagner (I'm not so sold on Wagner). The rest are I-AA players. It's a long way between 1.5 and 7.

[skip-zip]

They had a small number of good guys and spent every Saturday trying to find ways to get that small number the ball as much as possible. The spread allows a team to be creative. A pro offense offers little creativity.

I know this has come up often. And I have never coached football, so I am no expert here.

But, isn't a pro style offense really dependent upon beating defenses straight up, with one on one matchups? If so, we don't have the horses to do that, and may not have them for several more years, IF we start recruiting some studs, which isn't likely.

Oh Boy.

[Dave in Green]

I will go out on a limb and say that we don't have the financial backing to do such a thing unless a wealthy alumnus/donor comes along to provide the backing needed.

Exactly. Although we're all frustrated, and want to vent to our fellow fans, we are likely wasting our time with discussions about his dismissal. I'm guessing that we could probably put that part of the discussion on hold until at least the end of the 2012 season.

STRONGLY DISAGREE.

We need to keep this on the front burner putting a lot of heat on Porenza and Wistrcill.

Complaciancy is our worst enemy. The message needs to be loud and often.

Tom Wistrcill needs to feel the heat. So long as his job is secure he wont act.

This must be fixed immediately if not sooner. Kick Ianello to the curb.

You're kidding, right? You don't honestly believe that a few dozen disgruntled fans repeating Ianello Must Go more often on ZN.O is going to put a lot of heat on Proenza and Wistrcill?

All that would do is make ZN.O harder to read for other fans here.

Proenza and Wistrcill are reminded much more powerfully of fan discontent by the dwindling size of the crowds at every home game.

If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.

Put up a message in big block letters:

FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!

(Sponsored by Zips Football

Fans Who Are Tired of Losing)

Something like that would at least get more people talking.

[GP1]

But, isn't a pro style offense really dependent upon beating defenses straight up, with one on one matchups?

It is about one on one, but it takes more studs to be good at the offense than it does with the spread. Schools like Alabama have a line of studs waiting to get in their school and on the field...They can run a pro offense because they have 11 studs...they have 11 more studs as back-up players. MAC schools don't get that volume of good players on any team so they have to be more creative and utilize what talent they have as best as they can. That is why the spread is so valuable at the MAC level. That's what made coaches like Urban Meyer and Brian Kelly so good in the MAC.

[UAZipster0305]

But, isn't a pro style offense really dependent upon beating defenses straight up, with one on one matchups?

It is about one on one, but it takes more studs to be good at the offense than it does with the spread. Schools like Alabama have a line of studs waiting to get in their school and on the field...They can run a pro offense because they have 11 studs...they have 11 more studs as back-up players. MAC schools don't get that volume of good players on any team so they have to be more creative and utilize what talent they have as best as they can. That is why the spread is so valuable at the MAC level. That's what made coaches like Urban Meyer and Brian Kelly so good in the MAC.

And what concerns me most about iCoach is that both Meyer and Kelly showed immediate progress in improving the program without first instating the Sherman's March to the Sea approach to handling the current roster. They didn't slash and burn. Why did iCoach feel the need? This policy was the first indication I had that iCoach was a disaster.

[Doug Snyder]

But, isn't a pro style offense really dependent upon beating defenses straight up, with one on one matchups?

It is about one on one, but it takes more studs to be good at the offense than it does with the spread. Schools like Alabama have a line of studs waiting to get in their school and on the field...They can run a pro offense because they have 11 studs...they have 11 more studs as back-up players. MAC schools don't get that volume of good players on any team so they have to be more creative and utilize what talent they have as best as they can. That is why the spread is so valuable at the MAC level. That's what made coaches like Urban Meyer and Brian Kelly so good in the MAC.

Pray tell....why was Al Golden so good in the MAC and what offense did he run???What offense did Joe Novak run at Northern Illinois when they dominated the league?? What offense did Haywood use at Miami to win the league title last year (after a 1-11 record the previous year…so it could not be that he had superior talent at each postion).One would have to be a complete idiot and ignore facts to say that you can't win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

[UADavid]

I will go out on a limb and say that we don't have the financial backing to do such a thing unless a wealthy alumnus/donor comes along to provide the backing needed.

Exactly. Although we're all frustrated, and want to vent to our fellow fans, we are likely wasting our time with discussions about his dismissal. I'm guessing that we could probably put that part of the discussion on hold until at least the end of the 2012 season.

STRONGLY DISAGREE.We need to keep this on the front burner putting a lot of heat on Porenza and Wistrcill.Complaciancy is our worst enemy. The message needs to be loud and often.Tom Wistrcill needs to feel the heat. So long as his job is secure he wont act.This must be fixed immediately if not sooner. Kick Ianello to the curb.

You're kidding, right? You don't honestly believe that a few dozen disgruntled fans repeating Ianello Must Go more often on ZN.O is going to put a lot of heat on Proenza and Wistrcill?All that would do is make ZN.O harder to read for other fans here.Proenza and Wistrcill are reminded much more powerfully of fan discontent by the dwindling size of the crowds at every home game.If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.Put up a message in big block letters:FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!(Sponsored by Zips FootballFans Who Are Tired of Losing)Something like that would at least get more people talking.

+1 Between fire Ianello, attendance what if's and where to build an unfunded arena, ZN is becoming a tough read. What makes anyone believe the administration even looks at ZN. Youtube Tom disappeared and I've never seen him post any item on ZN.

[Hilltopper]

If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.Put up a message in big block letters:FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!(Sponsored by Zips FootballFans Who Are Tired of Losing)Something like that would at least get more people talking.

I might have around $1200.00 to contribute to that idea next fall.

[UADavid]

If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.Put up a message in big block letters:FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!(Sponsored by Zips FootballFans Who Are Tired of Losing)Something like that would at least get more people talking.

I might have around $1200.00 to contribute to that idea next fall.

That wouldn't be unused football season ticket money Hilltopper, would it?

[UADavid]

@DIG That billboard idea would likely gain the attention of local sports coverage and perhaps an ESPN mention.

[Doug Snyder]

But, isn't a pro style offense really dependent upon beating defenses straight up, with one on one matchups?

It is about one on one, but it takes more studs to be good at the offense than it does with the spread. Schools like Alabama have a line of studs waiting to get in their school and on the field...They can run a pro offense because they have 11 studs...they have 11 more studs as back-up players. MAC schools don't get that volume of good players on any team so they have to be more creative and utilize what talent they have as best as they can. That is why the spread is so valuable at the MAC level. That's what made coaches like Urban Meyer and Brian Kelly so good in the MAC.

And what concerns me most about iCoach is that both Meyer and Kelly showed immediate progress in improving the program without first instating the Sherman's March to the Sea approach to handling the current roster. They didn't slash and burn. Why did iCoach feel the need? This policy was the first indication I had that iCoach was a disaster.

There are 2 types of coaches. One is like Shula and will mold a style of play around the type of talent he has. The other is like Jimmy Johnson and Bill Parcells and they totally tear things down and rebuild. I think we would all prefer someone like Shula....but that is not what we have. Many of the "spread" guys will make sure they have a good QB available to run the spread before they take a position. And I do believe you can turn a program around quicker with the spread (if you have a QB). But it works better at lower levels because you exploit weaknesses in the defense...and there are more at lower levels. It is not a great offense inside the 20 as many of the options start to disappear. My preference is for a quick strike pro style with a mobile QB (think Jim Zorn at Seattle).