Whence the Football Program?

[GP1]

Pray tell....why was Al Golden so good in the MAC and what offense did he run???What offense did Joe Novak run at Northern Illinois when they dominated the league?? What offense did Haywood use at Miami to win the league title last year (after a 1-11 record the previous year…so it could not be that he had superior talent at each postion).One would have to be a complete idiot and ignore facts to say that you can't win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

If you want to talk facts, let's talk facts.Joe Novak was an old guy who never won a MAC Championship with all of that great talent he had because of his offense. I remember a little 6-6 Zips team spreading it out against his team and winning the league. I also remember his offense not being able to move the ball effectively against an average Zips team late in the game. They had an NFL running back and were so predictable we were able to stop them.Miami runs a type of spread offense. They ran one last season as well. Miami wasn't overflowing with talent last year. They had some talent and used it wisely. There is a fine line between good and average in the MAC. Miami is finding themselves on the average side this season.Al Golden...Please use this site and tell me the number of conference championships he won. Golden used his pro offense to lay an egg in the final two games last season against OU and Miami (both of whom run a type of spread). Maybe we can get this offense to take us 5-3 in the MAC and not win the league. I'm interested in being the best team in the worst league in the country. It can be done. Getting good in the MAC isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. The Zips make it hard and almost everyone else finds it pretty easy to have some good years.One would have to go all the way back to 2003 to find a league champion that didn't run some form of spread offense.One would have to be a complete idiot to ignore facts to say you can win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

[Zip Watcher]

If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.Put up a message in big block letters:FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!(Sponsored by Zips FootballFans Who Are Tired of Losing)Something like that would at least get more people talking.

I might have around $1200.00 to contribute to that idea next fall.

Is there no Food Bank or Women & Children's Shelter in Stark County?

[Doug Snyder]

Pray tell....why was Al Golden so good in the MAC and what offense did he run???What offense did Joe Novak run at Northern Illinois when they dominated the league?? What offense did Haywood use at Miami to win the league title last year (after a 1-11 record the previous year…so it could not be that he had superior talent at each postion).One would have to be a complete idiot and ignore facts to say that you can't win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

If you want to talk facts, let's talk facts.Joe Novak was an old guy who never won a MAC Championship with all of that great talent he had because of his offense. I remember a little 6-6 Zips team spreading it out against his team and winning the league. I also remember his offense not being able to move the ball effectively against an average Zips team late in the game. They had an NFL running back and were so predictable we were able to stop them.Miami runs a type of spread offense. They ran one last season as well. Miami wasn't overflowing with talent last year. They had some talent and used it wisely. There is a fine line between good and average in the MAC. Miami is finding themselves on the average side this season.Al Golden...Please use this site and tell me the number of conference championships he won. Golden used his pro offense to lay an egg in the final two games last season against OU and Miami (both of whom run a type of spread). Maybe we can get this offense to take us 5-3 in the MAC and not win the league. I'm interested in being the best team in the worst league in the country. It can be done. Getting good in the MAC isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. The Zips make it hard and almost everyone else finds it pretty easy to have some good years.One would have to go all the way back to 2003 to find a league champion that didn't run some form of spread offense.One would have to be a complete idiot to ignore facts to say you can win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

"Haywood's offense is run-first and features considerable play-action looks in the passing game. Defensively, the idea is to stop the run first."http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=5924001....Did not know they ran a play-action in the spread....well they say you learn something new every day. I have this day covered!!!So....you can go all the way back to 2010 to find a team that won the MAC with a pro-offenseI am a Miami grad so I keep up a liitle on the Redhawks. He ran the same offense as Charlie Weis."Through Haywood's four seasons as the offensive coordinator and running backs coach at Notre Dame (2005-08), the Fighting Irish have averaged nearly 27 points per game. He took over the majority of Notre Dame's offensive play calling in 2008 and the result was an additional 103 yards per game over the previous season."http://zipsnation.org/forums//index.php?Is this another one of your "trust me" moments?? In case you have not noticed....I seldom do. Who was that wise old man that said "trust....but verify"??

[Doug Snyder]

Al Golden...Please use this site and tell me the number of conference championships he won. Golden used his pro offense to lay an egg in the final two games last season against OU and Miami (both of whom run a type of spread). Maybe we can get this offense to take us 5-3 in the MAC and not win the league. I'm interested in being the best team in the worst league in the country. It can be done. Getting good in the MAC isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. The Zips make it hard and almost everyone else finds it pretty easy to have some good years.

One would have to go all the way back to 2003 to find a league champion that didn't run some form of spread offense.

One would have to be a complete idiot to ignore facts to say you can win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

Both wrong. Miami uses a pro-style (or did) and OU runs a variation of the Veer/Option. They RUN the ball. Look up Solich's history.

You are starting to post like Zach.

[johnnyzip84]

Of course there are many versions of the Spread. A "Spread Option", similar to the one EMU just used to beat the Zips, is basically what OU runs most of the time.

[ZachTheZip]

Al Golden (Ianello has openly confessed to following his model) never won the MAC East. In fact, to this day Temple has never beaten a MAC team with a winning record. Is that the level we're striving for?

[K92]

Of course there are many versions of the Spread. A "Spread Option", similar to the one EMU just used to beat the Zips, is basically what OU runs most of the time.

You are absolutely right. There are many spread offenses that emphasize the run and if you establish the run in the spread, play action still works. That became the problem with JD's offense. The running game was an afterthought.

Some of you guys have to remember the spread the Lions used to run. I think it was called the RUN and shoot.

[GP1]

Al Golden...Please use this site and tell me the number of conference championships he won. Golden used his pro offense to lay an egg in the final two games last season against OU and Miami (both of whom run a type of spread). Maybe we can get this offense to take us 5-3 in the MAC and not win the league. I'm interested in being the best team in the worst league in the country. It can be done. Getting good in the MAC isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. The Zips make it hard and almost everyone else finds it pretty easy to have some good years.

One would have to go all the way back to 2003 to find a league champion that didn't run some form of spread offense.

One would have to be a complete idiot to ignore facts to say you can win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

Both wrong. Miami uses a pro-style (or did) and OU runs a variation of the Veer/Option. They RUN the ball. Look up Solich's history.

You are starting to post like Zach.

You're starting to get out of control. Let me help.

The modern day spread offense is not what a lot of people think the spread "run and gun" offenses of the past were when teams threw on every down. I hated those offenses because a team couldn't run the ball when they needed to. Modern offenses spread the field out and running is an important part of that offense. The zone read running play is a base component in the spread offense. Shotgun, single back and single TE when needed defines the modern spread. The old spread offenses had zero back and zero TE.

One of the best versions of the modern spread we have seen in recent years is the Brian Kelly spread offenses he ran at CMU and Cincinnati. This offense is similar to those offenses run at places like WVU and Northwestern. This offense takes a limited number of talented players, which is why teams like Northwestern and WVU use them, and place them at points on the field where they can isolate them against weak points on the defense. The offensive line blocking is heavy zone to the initial point of attack with backside blocking allowing for a cutback. Sometimes, the cutback is designed into a play creating a misdirection without pulling a guard on a trap. Like old option offenses, some players are left unaccounted for and it is up to the RB to decide on his running direction...a perfect offense of an offensive line that might be subpar.

The QB in the modern spread needs to be able to run, but not a lot. One might say, "just enough". The old spread, the QB was a totem pole waiting to get sacked and would get sacked in the modern game. A pro offense still presents the defense with the totem pole. Sorry CK, but Dan L. at CMU was the best spread QB this league has ever seen and he has the rings to prove it. He could pass and run well. They spread the field and nobody knew where the ball was going to go. We have a QB on our team who excelled in this type of offense in high school. Too bad we won't get to see how he does with it now.

In addition, I understand what Solich does at OU. It isn't the same offense he ran at Nebraska. These new types of option offenses are much more exciting and dynamic than they were 20 years ago when I was in school. They are a type of spread option. Navy is probably a better example. 20 years ago, teams who ran tripple option used two TEs and three backs in the backfield. Navy now uses one with flankers. The flankers widen the defense spreading it out and opening the options for the QB. Navy also has a very elaborate line scheme that a team can use when they have an offensive line, all of whom probably scored in the top 2% of the country on the SAT. I don't care for this type of option because if a team falls behind, the passing game just isn't there to come back....In that respect, it is little different than it was 20 years ago.

Mike Haywood ran a spread offense at Miami. I don't care where he coached before he was at Miami, he ran the modern spread at Miami. He used the offense to take a loser and quickly turn it into a winner with froshs and sophs. Pitt hired him to coach the spread at their school because they had seen enough with Wanny and his pro offense. I saw Miami play last year and I know what they run. In fact, they run the same thing this year.

I absolutely love the modern day spread offenses. Football is a much better game today than it was 20 years ago when I was in school. People who claim otherwise are the type of people who believe the 1950s were a great period in the world. This offense creates an excitement by creating a balance between running and passing that wasn't there 20 years ago. It allows for players to showcase their athletic ability instead of coaches squashing athletic ability by running the ball into the line every play because they believed that is how a team was physical. There are a lot of ways to be tough other than bashing your head against a wall.

The spread is more than just run first or pass first. It is an entire offensive philosophy different than pro style in the sets, blocking schemes and play calling rhythm. It allows bad teams to get good with lesser talent than other teams. It is truely a team philosophy that can allow even average players to reach their maximum potential. That's why, to this day, I just can't believe we are running a pro style offense. It goes back to the question I asked over the weekend. Am I the only person with a television set? Everyone runs it for a reason.

[jupitertoo]

Al Golden...Please use this site and tell me the number of conference championships he won. Golden used his pro offense to lay an egg in the final two games last season against OU and Miami (both of whom run a type of spread). Maybe we can get this offense to take us 5-3 in the MAC and not win the league. I'm interested in being the best team in the worst league in the country. It can be done. Getting good in the MAC isn't the hardest thing in the world to do. The Zips make it hard and almost everyone else finds it pretty easy to have some good years.

One would have to go all the way back to 2003 to find a league champion that didn't run some form of spread offense.

One would have to be a complete idiot to ignore facts to say you can win the MAC with a pro style base offense.

Both wrong. Miami uses a pro-style (or did) and OU runs a variation of the Veer/Option. They RUN the ball. Look up Solich's history.

You are starting to post like Zach.

Looking up Solich's history won't give you the correct answer. OU this year is running a variation of the spread.

[K92]

I think the offense we run has the potential to create some of the favorable matchups in space that we all want to see. The Weis offense is a complex multiple formation pro offense. They could come out and go spread from the get go if the coaching staff so desired. They should have the ability to be competent in a lot of different looks. When I watch the other teams that run this offense, they dont look much like the Zips version. Not to bad mouth Latina, but what does he know about running this offense? Seriously. I am starting to wonder.

[Doug Snyder]

@GP1

What to watch for on offense: More from the running game. It’s been years since Miami ran the ball effectively, and it certainly wasn’t anything to write home about last year finishing second-to-last in the nation averaging 70 yards per game (only Duke was worse). Haywood is a running backs coach by trade and wants to get the ground attack rolling led by a more physical line. Thomas Merriweather and Danny Green has fast, talented backs who’ll get their chances, while QB Zac Dysert

http://cfn.scout.com/2/981972.html#start

What you need to know: New offensive coordinator Peter Vaas, after coaching David Cutcliffe's attack at Duke, has his work cut out for him, but he has some good pieces to work with from an attack that was 12th in the MAC in total offense, last in scoring, and 101st in the nation in rushing and 101st in pass efficiency. Last year's attack was a mega-disappointment, and for good and bad all the key skill players are back. Vaas wants to push the ball down the field more with a vertical passing attack, and he has the speedsters to do it led by Chris Givens and Jamal Rogers. Three good backs will rotate to help out last year's poor running game, but they need room to move. The line wasn't bad last year, but it has to do some major revamping. And then there's the quarterback situation. Daniel Raudabaugh is back as his third year as the starter, but he has struggled to put points on the board. He'll be pushed by Zac Dysert

http://cfn.scout.com/2/866748.html

I guess any successful offense can be considered "Spread".

And...I think the strongest piece of evidense against your claim is....He HIRED John Latina to be his OC at Pittsburgh. John Latina...OC at Akron running the pro set offense.

Done.

[ZachTheZip]

Listening to the new sports talk radio station, every on there all day has been talking about how the Browns are running an offense (West Coast) that doesn't play to their strengths and that the head coach is trying to force his players into positions that they don't quite fit. They said that a transition year is needed while the coach installs his preferred offense where playcalls and formations are a mix of the best plays for the type of players you have and some basic ones that you want to run in the future.

I thought it was an interesting parallel to what Ianello has done. Why can't we mix in some shotgun snaps or give Moore the option to run?

Of course, if we want to use an offense that plays best to our strengths then we should be running the wishbone.

[GP1]

I guess any successful offense can be considered "Spread".

And...I think the strongest piece of evidense against your claim is....He HIRED John Latina to be his OC at Pittsburgh. John Latina...OC at Akron running the pro set offense.

Done.

It's much more complicated than a successful offense being called a spread. Please see my description above. It could also be that spread offenses make teams successful.

Your strongest piece of evidence isn't really that strong. Coach I is going to have an OC run whatever offense he wants him to run. This can hurt a program if the OC is not skilled at calling plays for that offense. Most coaches Latina's age have coached many styles of play in their careers.

[GP1]

I thought it was an interesting parallel to what Ianello has done. Why can't we mix in some shotgun snaps or give Moore the option to run?

Because play calling is a rhythm. To change the rhythm changes the flow of the offense in a way that probably isn't good for the offense. It's the same reason the Wildcat really isn't working...it isn't fooling anyone and has become a series of wasted plays.

Before the Zips try anything more, they need to get good at what they are supposed to be good at, which is a pro style offense. Until then, anything else is a waste of plays.

[Hilltopper]

If you want to reinforce that, take up a collection and rent the closest billboard to the UA campus -- one they'll see every day as they drive into work.

Put up a message in big block letters:

FIRE COACH IANELLO NOW!

(Sponsored by Zips Football

Fans Who Are Tired of Losing)

Something like that would at least get more people talking.

I might have around $1200.00 to contribute to that idea next fall.

Is there no Food Bank or Women & Children's Shelter in Stark County?

At what point will you be willing to admit that we made a bad hire? Its good to be a loyal supporter of the program, but sometimes you just have to call a Spade, a Spade. You know that I am a 40+ year season ticket holder. I've seen the good, the bad and the ugly, but this is as bad as I've ever seen. We have the resources to be a much better football program than we are at the moment. Why did we have to hire a HC who needed training wheels.? His game day management has been horrible. Ianello was hired because of his reputation as a recruiter. When he sent a large portion of the previous coaches recruits packing I was concerned. Did Dambrot run off half the players already in the system when he got the HC job? You're a parent, would you want to send your kid to a program that had a reputation like that? I'm hoping with all hope that Ianello can right the ship, but if I don't start seeing some results, I will take my football $$$ elsewhere.

[Z.I.P.]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

[Hilltopper]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

Why do you think its necessary to bring your politics into this thread?

[Zip Watcher]

At what point will you be willing to admit that we made a bad hire?

When the individual hired has had ample opportunity to demonstrate his ability to implement the vision which he illustrated to TW, the search committee, and LP, resulting in his hire. And when the demonstration of that vision, with all the resources required to test it out, proves that it's the wrong vision for UA Football.

The team lost this week by one score .. was in the game through out, on the road. Execution continues to be a problem in the passing game, and there was an untimely red-zone turnover. They lost by 8. It's not time to shut down the program.

For me, 1 season and 4 or 5 games is not enough time. UA has been a mediocre (or worse) FB program for all but 2 years of it's time in FBS. Frankly, they're not that far from mediocre now. I believe it to be unreasonable to expect radical results and discharge staff after staff if they don't hit some magic success criteria held by the fans in the short run. We have the Browns to do that for us.

We all want sustained success here. You want it, I want it, everyone on the board wants it, LP wants it, TW wants it .. and newsflash: RI & his staff want it. Building a durable, sustainable program that we can all be proud to call our own isn't happening in 18 months. Not here, not @ Temple, not anywhere. In my opinion, trying a quick fix would be the same as skim coating the concrete at the Rubber Bowl, selling naming rights, and calling it a new stadium. We didn't do that with the Big Dialer, and I don't think we should do it with the team. This needs some time.

A strength of the UA Administration, both in Buchtel Hall and the JAR is planning and execution. The strategic plans don't change with the winds. LP set forth a long term vision for UA that took time and diligence to execute. AD after AD here at UA has practiced similar restraint and efforts where it came to Athletics. Why push the panic button now?

Pulling support from the program at this juncture doesn't do much other than that .. pull support from the program. The majority of those who are funded by the program are our student athletes: the players. I get the frustration .. I read it here everyday .. I hear it .. it's fine to be frustrated. It's also fine and perfectly normal to not renew the tickets if you're not enjoying the Saturdays of football.

Burning your hard earned money up on a billboard that's not supportive of UA Football players is your business, have at it. I figure there's other places that cash can actually go to productive ends, be it at UA or elsewhere. Just my $0.02.

Go Zips!

[K92]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

Wow. Ann Richards. One of the original Lee sisters. This seems to tell another story about the quote.

[Captain Kangaroo]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

Wow. Ann Richards. One of the original Lee sisters. This seems to tell another story about the quote.

Next, you guys are going to tell me ZipsWin! didn't coin the phrase "Rearranging the Chairs on the Titanic?"

[Hilltopper]

At what point will you be willing to admit that we made a bad hire?

When the individual hired has had ample opportunity to demonstrate his ability to implement the vision which he illustrated to TW, the search committee, and LP, resulting in his hire. And when the demonstration of that vision, with all the resources required to test it out, proves that it's the wrong vision for UA Football.

So its an unlimited time frame?

The team lost this week by one score .. was in the game through out, on the road. Execution continues to be a problem in the passing game, and there was an untimely red-zone turnover. They lost by 8. It's not time to shut down the program.

Where did I say that its time to shut down the program after last weeks game

For me, 1 season and 4 or 5 games is not enough time. UA has been a mediocre (or worse) FB program for all but 2 years of it's time in FBS. Frankly, they're not that far from mediocre now. I believe it to be unreasonable to expect radical results and discharge staff after staff if they don't hit some magic success criteria held by the fans in the short run. We have the Browns to do that for us.

So now I'm responsible for the Browns problems?

We all want sustained success here. You want it, I want it, everyone on the board wants it, LP wants it, TW wants it .. and newsflash: RI & his staff want it. Building a durable, sustainable program that we can all be proud to call our own isn't happening in 18 months. Not here, not @ Temple, not anywhere. In my opinion, trying a quick fix would be the same as skim coating the concrete at the Rubber Bowl, selling naming rights, and calling it a new stadium. We didn't do that with the Big Dialer, and I don't think we should do it with the team. This needs some time.

Is it unreasonable to expect any progress? A good recruiting class will go a long way towards that.

A strength of the UA Administration, both in Buchtel Hall and the JAR is planning and execution. The strategic plans don't change with the winds. LP set forth a long term vision for UA that took time and diligence to execute. AD after AD here at UA has practiced similar restraint and efforts where it came to Athletics. Why push the panic button now?

Pulling support from the program at this juncture doesn't do much other than that .. pull support from the program. The majority of those who are funded by the program are our student athletes: the players. I get the frustration .. I read it hear everyday .. I hear it .. it's fine to be frustrated. It's also fine and perfectly normal to not renew the tickets if you're not enjoying the Saturdays of football.

Agreed

Burning your hard earned money up on a billboard that's not supportive of UA Football players is your business, have at it. I figure there's other places that cash can actually go to productive ends, be it at UA or elsewhere. Just my $0.02.

I guess I didn't use the correct smiley while taking a good natured shot at my Brother in law. I fixed the post to avoid confusion. I seriously doubt there will be any billboard demanding the firing of the coach.

Go Zips!

Thats been my motto for over 40 years. I'm not going to change it anytime soon.

[Zip Watcher]

Not an ulimited time frame .. but more than Browns Fans' 16 games. It's still early.

Progress will be demonstrated in ways other than the win column before the wins stack up.

I think we need patience.

Go Zips!

[K92]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

Wow. Ann Richards. One of the original Lee sisters. This seems to tell another story about the quote.

Next, you guys are going to tell me ZipsWin! didn't coin the phrase "Rearranging the Chairs on the Titanic?"

No, I'm pretty sure he did.

[Hilltopper]

There's an old baseball saying -- "The guy was born on 3rd base, but acts like he hit a triple."

Actually Cap'n, some of the best baseball quotes come from politics! Can you believe, she wasn't talking about his son?

Wow. Ann Richards. One of the original Lee sisters. This seems to tell another story about the quote.

Next, you guys are going to tell me ZipsWin! didn't coin the phrase "Rearranging the Chairs on the Titanic?"

I thought it was "The deck chairs on the Titanic"

[Doug Snyder]

Like DiG, I am an analytical type of guy. I have often been accused of being over analytical. It is in my DNA.

Ianello was not my first choice as HC. But I did not have a chance to review all the candidates and meet and interview each. So...I will have to defer to the administration (more about them later). Now that we have Ianello, we must evaluate the situation differently. We can't just say "Bowden is available and we think he is better" because it would require starting over. And I understand that some coaches can turn things around quickly...but it usually takes a few years. So...at the end of year two I will ask this question... do we have a better chance of winning over the short term with Ianello or someone new and what might the ceiling be?? If the answer is close....I will have to consider the fact we will have to pay 1-2million to be able to take that new risk (and who knows if the new guy will be successful). And any prospective new coach may be a little gun shy because we showed no patience with this rebuild. So....for me, there is almost no way I would make a change before the end of year three. Then we can sit back and see where we are, how we got there and what the likely results will be for the near term. Each year the decision gets easier as Ianello has time to get his program in place and the cost to change declines dramatically.

I have seen improvement with the team this year. But I am disappointed in the defense, the offensive line and the mental errors. I am disappointed Price has not shown more. I am disappointed the Suel has not been healthy enough to play...I think he is our 2nd best player. But we are very young….and all the key skill players will be here for 2-3 more years. Although I am getting a little frustrated by the pace of growth, I do have the patience to see it through until the end of next year. Count me a supporter of Ianello (still)

Some have criticized the AD here and give him little to no credit. Before I started posting on this site I popped in and read what people were thinking. The first thing that struck me was that no AD was given any credit. Mack Rhoades was a bum (according to those here) and all his accomplishments were attributed to the previous AD or his staff. Now...we have some here crediting the same Mack Rhoades for accomplishments that are happening now. One thing I know for sure....someone is doing something right. Look at the accomplishments over the last 15 years. They did not just happen...committed and talented people made them happen. TW is given no credit for the soccer program. Well...they made the investments and kept Porter when everyone thought he would leave. Porter said after his signing that he "liked the direction of the sports programs" at Akron. Why should we assume that TW had NOTHING to do with that?? He found the 500k to spend on basketball upgrades. Speaking to Dambrot...he will tell you that the upgrades are very important in differentiating the Zips from the competition during recruiting. Where did he get the money?? Did ANYONE on ZNO pony up even a dime??? You may not like the fact that we publish 14k attendance when there is clearly not that many there. But he has been creative in getting paid attendance to meet the NCAA requirement while the football team is given a chance to grow and build real demand. For me...TW has done a very good job. But so did Rhoades and Thomas before him. But it really starts with Proenza. I have the utmost faith that he will do what is in the best interest for the University although his time horizon is a little longer than most on this site. Although I agree that TW will ultimately be judged by the success of the football program, I think most reasonable people will judge him on the whole job he does. Look at Laing Kennedy at Can't. He is respected by his peers and he could never turn around the football program. He tried many things including bringing back a famous coach…nothing worked. Turning around a football program is not easy. Count me a strong supporter of TW.