Conference Re-Alignment?

[Dave in Green]

I believe the different state argument is very strong, especially considering the two states are Ohio and Michigan. I lived in the Detroit area for more than 20 years, and there was way, way less mention of Toledo on the Detroit TV stations than there is of Akron on Cleveland TV. Really, it's not even close. For the Detroit market, Toledo might as well be Columbus.

The University of Michigan is located within the Detroit TV market, and no college conference that Toledo might join could ever put a dent in UM's stranglehold on Detroit TV college sports coverage.

On the other hand, there is an opportunity for an Ohio university to establish itself as the top sports power physically within the geography of the Cleveland-Akron TV market, and become a clear second to tOSU in Cleveland-Akron TV sports coverage.

To achieve that, an area university would need to belong to a higher-profile conference than the MAC or Horizon League, bring big-name college teams into the market, and win on a consistent basis. UA might be able to accomplish that in the Big East, but likely not in any lesser conference.

Would UA sports teams consistently winning in the Big East cause a huge number of people living inside the Cleveland city limits to suddenly become major Zips fans? No.

Would that cause increased general interest in UA across the entire Cleveland-Akron TV market and create some new fans? Yes.

[johnnyzip84]

@DiG

Holy Toledo! I surrender on this point. Apparently my partial surrender in the last post was ignored. This is unconditional surrender.

Now I'll address the crux of the discussion. I'll grant you that there is an OPPORTUNITY for increased UA sports interest/coverage across the Cleveland-Akron media market following a successful run of years in a higher tier conference such as the Big East. The question, of course, is whether the Big East feels it would be worth going out on a limb to invite UA based on an as-yet-completely-unproven connection between Zip athletics and the nation's 18th largest media market.

[g-mann17]

@DiG

Holy Toledo! I surrender on this point. Apparently my partial surrender in the last post was ignored. This is unconditional surrender.

Now I'll address the crux of the discussion. I'll grant you that there is an OPPORTUNITY for increased UA sports interest/coverage across the Cleveland-Akron media market following a successful run of years in a higher tier conference such as the Big East. The question, of course, is whether the Big East feels it would be worth going out on a limb to invite UA based on an as-yet-completely-unproven connection between Zip athletics and the nation's 18th largest media market.

People in Cincinnati were OSU honks until the Bearcats joined the Big East and went on a run. The Bearcats wete not particulsly strong in any sport when they joined.

[NewZipsFan]

People in Cincinnati were OSU honks until the Bearcats joined the Big East and went on a run. The Bearcats wete not particulsly strong in any sport when they joined.

Did anyone else notice/find it odd that in that CUSA thread there didn't seem to be ANY mention of our new coaching staff? Forget the fact that it was natiional sports news for several weeks - any middle of the road college football fan knows about it. You'd think that CUSA fans who are actually discussing the Zips would not be living under rocks - but hey, maybe they are. Just another reason in my opinion not to join that useless conference.

I don't think we need to make two conference moves. Within the next couple of years, not only will the conference realignment situation be shaking out and any changes to the current natiional championship formula be either decided or close to a decision; but Akron will have a winning record at the very least and will be a part of the discussion on the national landscape.

[johnnyzip84]

People in Cincinnati were OSU honks until the Bearcats joined the Big East and went on a run. The Bearcats wete not particulsly strong in any sport when they joined.

This would be an infinitely stronger point if we were discussing Cleveland State and if they had an FBS football program.

Don't get me wrong. I am a long-time believer than UA has been and remains a sleeping giant in collegiate sports. We've seen signs of an awakening for sure. I just don't buy the Cleveland TV market argument at the current. Can that change? I'm skeptical. That doesn't mean I think this prevents UA from taking on a much larger athletic profile, either within the MAC (through domination of it) or elsewhere.

[Dave in Green]

@johnnyzip84, total surrender accepted.

Now that we've nuked Toledo, I promise to focus only on the Cleveland-Akron market.

The connection between Zips athletics and the nation's 18th largest media market is not unproven. It exists by definition and in fact. Akron is obviously part of the Cleveland-Akron TV market. Akron is smaller than Cleveland and a little further away from the Cleveland-based TV stations, so it doesn't get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as Cleveland. Akron will never get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as those who live in Akron would like.

However, Akron does get some coverage, and Zips athletics does get some coverage. The question is not whether Zips athletics can get any coverage but how much the coverage could be increased. That would depend on the prestige of the conference the Zips are in and the quality of their performance against big-name schools. Any conference would be making a gamble if they brought in a team from a lesser conference without a great record against big-name schools.

If Akron was a little further away from Cleveland and if Akron had its own TV stations, it would be a separate market but a much smaller one. I suspect there are people on the staff of the Big East and other BCS conferences who are pretty good at crunching numbers and weighing the pros and cons of bigger fish in smaller markets vs. smaller fish in bigger markets. With the right nurturing, smaller fish can grow into bigger fish.

I'd love to be in the room if Dr. Proenza was presenting his Vision 2020 strategic plan to representatives of the Big East or other higher-level conference with Jim Tressel, Terry Bowden, Keith Dambrot and Caleb Porter sitting behind him.

[johnnyzip84]

The connection between Zips athletics and the nation's 18th largest media market is not unproven. It exists by definition and is fact. Akron is obviously part of the Cleveland-Akron TV market. Akron is smaller than Cleveland and a little further away from the Cleveland-based TV stations, so it doesn't get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as Cleveland. Akron will never get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as those who live in Akron would like.

However, Akron does get some coverage, and Zips athletics does get some coverage. The question is not whether Zips athletics can get any coverage but how much the coverage could be increased. That would depend on the prestige of the conference the Zips are in and the quality of their performance against big-name schools. Any conference would be making a gamble if they brought in a team from a lesser conference without a great record against big-name schools.

If Akron was a little further away from Cleveland and if Akron had its own TV stations, it would be a separate market but a much smaller one. I suspect there are people on the staff of the Big East and other BCS conferences who are pretty good at crunching numbers and weighing the pros and cons of bigger fish in smaller markets vs. smaller fish in bigger markets. With the right nurturing, smaller fish can grow into bigger fish.

I'd love to be in the room if Dr. Proenza was presenting his Vision 2020 strategic plan to representatives of the Big East or other higher-level conference with Jim Tressel, Terry Bowden, Keith Dambrot and Caleb Porter sitting behind him.

First of all, I've seen you chastise people on here for mixing fact with opinion and vice versa, so you have a lot of nerve with the opening few lines in quotes.

You wrote the beginning of a novel here, but you failed to address the biggest issue regarding TV markets as related to conference affiliation. C-USA/MWC, the Big East or whoever isn't overly concerned about Zip media coverage in Cleveland (that's left up to us at ZNO). It's the potential TV ratings for televised games that matter period, since this is what has a bearing on conference TV contract negotiations.

What we're lacking (both of us) in this discussion is hard data to illustrate exactly how the viewers of Zip TV sports events are distributed throughout the NE Ohio region. Until I see that, the connection between Zip sports and the Cleveland TV market remains unproven for me.

[wadszip]

@johnnyzip84, total surrender accepted.

Now that we've nuked Toledo, I promise to focus only on the Cleveland-Akron market.

The connection between Zips athletics and the nation's 18th largest media market is not unproven. It exists by definition and in fact. Akron is obviously part of the Cleveland-Akron TV market. Akron is smaller than Cleveland and a little further away from the Cleveland-based TV stations, so it doesn't get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as Cleveland. Akron will never get as much coverage in the Cleveland-Akron TV market as those who live in Akron would like.

However, Akron does get some coverage, and Zips athletics does get some coverage. The question is not whether Zips athletics can get any coverage but how much the coverage could be increased. That would depend on the prestige of the conference the Zips are in and the quality of their performance against big-name schools. Any conference would be making a gamble if they brought in a team from a lesser conference without a great record against big-name schools.

If Akron was a little further away from Cleveland and if Akron had its own TV stations, it would be a separate market but a much smaller one. I suspect there are people on the staff of the Big East and other BCS conferences who are pretty good at crunching numbers and weighing the pros and cons of bigger fish in smaller markets vs. smaller fish in bigger markets. With the right nurturing, smaller fish can grow into bigger fish.

I'd love to be in the room if Dr. Proenza was presenting his Vision 2020 strategic plan to representatives of the Big East or other higher-level conference with Jim Tressel, Terry Bowden, Keith Dambrot and Caleb Porter sitting behind him.

I agree 100 percent with everything you've posted. Well stated.

I'll add that even if Akron would never be fully accepted by the Cleveland area as No. 2 behind Ohio State (which we'll never know unless Akron does join the Big East), it still has a rather large population within the bigger Cleveland-Akron market.

The Akron MSA (Summit and Portage counties) has 700,000 people, while the Canton-Massillon MSA has 400,000. Combined, that's 1.1 million people (almost exactly the same population of the No. 51 market Buffalo.) Really, even without Cleveland, Akron-Canton would still be a borderline top 50 market.

Of course the university will sell the Big East on the Cleveland-Akron market as a whole, but Akron is lucky in a sense that it A. Sits in the geographical mid-point of the market. B. Nearly 40 percent of the 2.8 million people in the market live in Akron-Canton (where the Zips can easily claim No. 2 status behind OSU).

Edit: BTW, just another thing for everybody to realize. There is technically no such thing as the "Cleveland" market. The correct name is the "Cleveland-Akron" TV market.

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

[Captain Kangaroo]

@ JohnnyZip84 - How you doin' today? Ready for the weekend?

[johnnyzip84]

@ JohnnyZip84 - How you doin' today? Ready for the weekend?

Doin' fine and I am more than ready for what should be an exciting weekend

[johnnyzip84]

The Akron MSA (Summit and Portage counties) has 700,000 people, while the Canton-Massillon MSA has 400,000. Combined, that's 1.1 million people (almost exactly the same population of the No. 51 market Buffalo.) Really, even without Cleveland, Akron-Canton would still be a borderline top 50 market.

Edit: BTW, just another thing for everybody to realize. There is technically no such thing as the "Cleveland" market. The correct name is the "Cleveland-Akron" TV market.

http://www.stationindex.com/tv/tv-markets

I think the above point in bold is valid and is enough of a reason for another conference to consider the Zips for expansion.

When I use the term Cleveland market, what I am getting at is what percentage of TV's within say 20 miles of downtown Cleveland would be tuned in to a Zips TV game. If you're going to tout the Cleveland-Akron market to a prospective conference, you'd certainly be expected to show that TV's outside of the aggregate Akron/Canton MSA will contribute significantly to the overall ratings.

[scottditzen]

I'm sure that the people in charge can and would make a convincing sales pitch. Well produced, televised Akron games will attract the same percentage of viewers in Cleveland as they will in Canton.

I think the above point in bold is valid and is enough of a reason for another conference to consider the Zips for expansion.

When I use the term Cleveland market, what I am getting at is what percentage of TV's within say 20 miles of downtown Cleveland would be tuned in to a Zips TV game. If you're going to tout the Cleveland-Akron market to a prospective conference, you'd certainly be expected to show that TV's outside of the aggregate Akron/Canton MSA will contribute significantly to the overall ratings.

[wadszip]

I think the above point in bold is valid and is enough of a reason for another conference to consider the Zips for expansion.

When I use the term Cleveland market, what I am getting at is what percentage of TV's within say 20 miles of downtown Cleveland would be tuned in to a Zips TV game. If you're going to tout the Cleveland-Akron market to a prospective conference, you'd certainly be expected to show that TV's outside of the aggregate Akron/Canton MSA will contribute significantly to the overall ratings.

No doubt, and that's the challenge Akron will have to face (along with upgrading the basketball facility). I would counter, though, that while it may take some time for Clevelanders to begin following the Zips, the proximity from Cleveland to Akron (34 miles) is within a 45 minute drive for a large percentage of the population.

For example, East Carolina (in Greenville, S.C.) is part of the No. 39 Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson-Asheville TV market. Asheville is more than 60 miles away from Greenville, while Spartanburg and Anderson are both 30 miles away (roughly the same distace as Akron and Cleveland). I use East Carolina as an example because it is also a school that has legit arguments to joining the Big East. But point is, whatever school you look at is going to have some challenges uniting the entire market behind one team (that's not even to mention that Greenville is only 40 miles from Clemson).

If Akron can make a move up (and marginalizing Can't in the process), and the Zips grab control of the No. 2 spot in Akron-Canton, then if it say can only capture 20 percent of the market in Cleveland, you're still looking at huge number of fans.

[zippy5]

I think the (well one of the main reasons) reason Cleveland doesn't follow us is because they know we aren't really one of the big boys. Hopefully our Athletic Dept can put a solid case together to show that the Cleveland market would support us if we were to join the Big East and be taken seriously in the Cleve. I personally think they would, if, that's a big if, we were to join the Big East AND win. They don't care if we win in the MAC...but I think they would if we won in the BE.

[wadszip]

I'm sure that the people in charge can and would make a convincing sales pitch. Well produced, televised Akron games will attract the same percentage of viewers in Cleveland as they will in Canton.

I respectfully disagree. I was born and raised in Cuyahoga County, and now spend a lot of time in Stark County. The difference is night-and-day. Canton definitely is a pro-Akron area (a ton of alumni living there). That's not saying that Akron couldn't draw as many overall viewers in Cleveland than it could in Canton (just because of the size differential). But percentage-wise, Canton will likely always be more pro-Akron than Cleveland.

However, UA has really racketed up its student recruiting efforts in Cleveland (the Lakewood branch is only going to help that further). So, while gaining the Cleveland share of the market is always going to be Akron's biggest challenge, it's not an impossible feat. Like I said in the previous post, if UA can garner support from 20 percent of people in that area, you're still talking about close to 200,000 potential viewers.

[wadszip]

I think the (well one of the main reasons) reason Cleveland doesn't follow us is because they know we aren't really one of the big boys. Hopefully our Athletic Dept can put a solid case together to show that the Cleveland market would support us if we were to join the Big East and be taken seriously in the Cleve. I personally think they would, if, that's a big if, we were to join the Big East AND win. They don't care if we win in the MAC...but I think they would if we won in the BE.

I agree with that 100 percent, whether it's Akron or Can't. Luckily, we are so much further along than our enemy to the east in terms of being attractive to a bigger conference.

[johnnyzip84]

No doubt, and that's the challenge Akron will have to face (along with upgrading the basketball facility). I would counter, though, that while it may take some time for Clevelanders to begin following the Zips, the proximity from Cleveland to Akron (34 miles) is within a 45 minute drive for a large percentage of the population.

For example, East Carolina (in Greenville, S.C.) is part of the No. 39 Greenville-Spartanburg-Anderson-Asheville TV market. Asheville is more than 60 miles away from Greenville, while Spartanburg and Anderson are both 30 miles away (roughly the same distace as Akron and Cleveland). I use East Carolina as an example because it is also a school that has legit arguments to joining the Big East. But point is, whatever school you look at is going to have some challenges uniting the entire market behind one team (that's not even to mention that Greenville is only 40 miles from Clemson).

If Akron can make a move up (and marginalizing Can't in the process), and the Zips grab control of the No. 2 spot in Akron-Canton, then if it say can only capture 20 percent of the market in Cleveland, you're still looking at huge number of fans.

Once again, I'm not saying a portion of the "Cleveland market" can't eventually be swayed to follow the Zips on TV. I just feel it's a "leap of faith" argument (and a pretty big one at that) at this point. I certainly hope it happens some day (even 5-10% would be great).

BTW, ECU is in Greenville, NORTH Carolina, well east of Raleigh. Its tiny market is a big reason why it's been left out of the Big East despite terrific fan support.

[wadszip]

Once again, I'm not saying a portion of the "Cleveland market" can't eventually be swayed to follow the Zips on TV. I just feel it's a "leap of faith" argument (and a pretty big one at that) at this point. I certainly hope it happens some day (even 5-10% would be great).

BTW, ECU is in Greenville, NORTH Carolina, well east of Raleigh. It's tiny market is a big reason why it's been left out of the Big East despite terrific fan support.

Thanks for the correction on ECU. I never looked up which Greenville it was located in, always assumed it was Greenville, S.C. That changes my stance on ECU being a major competitor to Akron for a potential spot in the Big East, though I should've realized the school is named "East" Carolina, and Greenville, S.C. is in western South Carolina.

We'll agree to disagree on Cleveland being a leap of faith. I think 5-10 percent would be the number right off the bat just from people being interested in "big-time" college football coming to the region. But moving that number further will be an interesting challenge.

[scottditzen]

To some it's a leap of faith that the Akron market will follow.

Aren't the Zips the THIRD most popular school in Akron, behind OSU and Notre Dame?

Who can find that stupid fan distribution map? Anyone?

Anyhow we're all speculating at this point. We simply don't know how Northeast Ohio will react to a successful 2.0 bigger conference version of Akron football because this is unprecedented territory. Maybe a barometer can be tv ratings for basketball when Akron or K-ent is in the ncaa tourney??

[wadszip]

To some it's a leap of faith that the Akron market will follow.

Aren't the Zips the THIRD most popular school in Akron, behind OSU and Notre Dame?

Who can find that stupid fan distribution map? Anyone?

Anyhow we're all speculating at this point. We simply don't know how Northeast Ohio will react to a successful 2.0 bigger conference version of Akron football because this is unprecedented territory. Maybe a barometer can be tv ratings for basketball when Akron or K-ent is in the ncaa tourney??

I imagine that is correct. Notre Dame has a huge following in every market with a large Catholic population.

With that being said, Ohio State fans in this area hate Notre Dame, and Notre Dame fans hate Ohio State. I've encountered very few people who root for both schools. However, most Ohio State fans don't seem to hate Akron (they just follow OSU more religiously .. same for Notre Dame). Maybe that would change if Akron becomes a direct competitor.

Overall, while Akron may be No. 3 in popularity, it's probably No. 1 in terms of the most likable school. There really doesn't seem to be much anti-UA venom in this area outside of the Can't supporters.

And, you can really argue that we don't know how Northeast Ohio will react to the InfoCision MAC version of the Zips because of how badly the school bombed with the hiring of Ianello.

[scottditzen]

^ How could one really dislike us?

We have a kangaroo as a mascot!!

p.s. pushing aside fears that this turns into an OSU thread, I completely agree that most OSU fans I know also root for Akron, just in a tepid way. I see the lack of a UA/OSU football rivalry to be a good thing in that regard. You want to win those types over, not beat them up in Lot 9...though it may be tempting sometimes.

[Dave in Green]

First of all, I've seen you chastise people on here for mixing fact with opinion and vice versa, so you have a lot of nerve with the opening few lines in quotes.

You wrote the beginning of a novel here, but you failed to address the biggest issue regarding TV markets as related to conference affiliation. C-USA/MWC, the Big East or whoever isn't overly concerned about Zip media coverage in Cleveland (that's left up to us at ZNO). It's the potential TV ratings for televised games that matter period, since this is what has a bearing on conference TV contract negotiations.

What we're lacking (both of us) in this discussion is hard data to illustrate exactly how the viewers of Zip TV sports events are distributed throughout the NE Ohio region. Until I see that, the connection between Zip sports and the Cleveland TV market remains unproven for me.

Well, the opening few lines from my last post contain only factual statements. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I was saying.

To more specifically address your last question, potential TV ratings for televised games are based on fan interest, and fan interest is generated in part by media coverage. So local media coverage of a team does have interest to a conference because the conference knows that media coverage will tend to generate more interest in a team which will, in turn, generate more interest among more people in viewing that team, leading to higher TV ratings.

No one really knows what Cleveland-Akron TV market ratings would be if Zips sports teams performed well in a big-name conference against big-name competition because it's never been done. We know there would be some level of interest, but we're just speculating on what level that interest might be.

No major conference is going to take a totally blind leap of faith on admitting UA. They would study the crap out of all available data and make their best projections based on experience in similar markets. The 18th largest TV market is not a bad starting point. But there simply is no foolproof formula for projecting exactly how many viewers would tune in to watch the Zips playing in a major conference.

I fail to see where you and I are not in agreement on this.

[Blue & Gold]

This is an interesting conversation and lies at the root of my disdain for Cleveland. Technically it's the Cleveland-Akron market, but in practice, that is tragically laughable for anyone who wants to see Akron duly recognized and advanced.

For at least 20 years now, Cleveland has literally almost completely refused to even acknowledge the existence of Akron. The region was force fed almost daily updates on the progress of the construction of the new Cleveland Brown's Stadium. But what did we get for the opening of the Info? A 4-minute segment the night before opening day? That should have been an ongoing story.

Would the Cleveland tv media shine more light on Akron were we to join the Big East? That's a serious question, the answer to which our admittance to that conference just might hinge upon.

Sadly, it seems that if it's at all within Cleveland's media power, they'd do anything possible to actually see Akron's Vision 2020 thwarted, or at least have as few people know about it as possible.

How's that television coverage been for our big BracketBuster contest tomorrow? Oh, right, the "Cleveland-Akron Market" hasn't even been made aware that there's even a game being played.

Screw you, Cleveland.

[lance99]

This is an interesting conversation and lies at the root of my disdain for Cleveland. Technically it's the Cleveland-Akron market, but in practice, that is tragically laughable for anyone who wants to see Akron duly recognized and advanced.

For at least 20 years now, Cleveland has literally almost completely refused to even acknowledge the existence of Akron. The region was force fed almost daily updates on the progress of the construction of the new Cleveland Brown's Stadium. But what did we get for the opening of the Info? A 4-minute segment the night before opening day? That should have been an ongoing story.

Would the Cleveland tv media shine more light on Akron were we to join the Big East? That's a serious question, the answer to which our admittance to that conference just might hinge upon.

Sadly, it seems that if it's at all within Cleveland's media power, they'd do anything possible to actually see Akron's Vision 2020 thwarted, or at least have as few people know about it as possible.

How's that television coverage been for our big BracketBuster contest tomorrow? Oh, right, the "Cleveland-Akron Market" hasn't even been made aware that there's even a game being played.

Screw you, Cleveland.

Actually it is Cleveland-Akron-Lorain. However you are right. I would put big money on if Akron joins the Big East(unless it implodes), every station there would run down here to cover the Zips just to say "there a Cleveland team"

As a side note, Akron has been fighting this for years.

Do not believe me? They have been trying to bury Akron for a long time and won.

Cleveland as a market, wants nothing to do with Akron unless money is involved.

[johnnyzip84]

Well, the opening few lines from my last post contain only factual statements. Perhaps you misinterpreted what I was saying.

I fail to see where you and I are not in agreement on this.

It may be semantics, but I disagree that the connection between Zip athletics and the nation's #18 TV market has been proven and is merely a "fact". I've stated the reason here several times, but I'll repeat to be clear. It's the northern and highest populated part (roughly within 20 miles of downtown Cleveland) of this market that I feel has not been proven to be a significant market, as yet, for televised Zip sporting events.

That's way more time than I really wanted to spend on this. We've got a big day tomorrow. Go Zips!!!