"Just" Getting to the Tournament

[ksu sucks]

Why are some people so convinced that making a run in an NCAA tournament is somehow the starting point of the only path to a perennial top-notch program?

If anyone said that, they're 100% wrong. Tournament victories are the result of building a strong program. It's the end result, not the starting point. However, if you can win tournament games and hold on to your head coach, you have a very good chance to sustain success.

First of all, it doesn't happen very often, especially from our league.

There are structural reasons for that. I've mentioned funding multiple times. But I don't see what that has to do with Akron. Our coaching situation is unique.

Secondly, the odds are tremendously against each individual team making a significant run. Every single year, about 30 lower seeds enter the tournament with that dream, and every year 29 or 30 of them leave the tournament without accomplishing it. Multiply that by a few decades, and the odds that YOUR team will be the one that has the magical run is pretty remote, and grows even more improbable when you don't have yearly appearances.

It seems like I'm arguing with two strains of thought in this thread. One of them is getting impatient with losing in the tourney, and the other seems to be suggesting that winning in the tournament is long shot and we should quit worrying about it. Consider me the "middle ground".

Thirdly, I'd like to challenge anyone to convince us that George Mason, or even Ken+ State, OU or Cleveland State have become noted success stories since their tournament runs.

As DrZ very astutely pointed out, what happened to their coaches after their tournament success? If we make a sweet 16 run next season, do you think Dambrot leaves? I'm not sure, but the fact that it's even debatable means we have a very unique situation. I'm as hopeful as anyone that this program takes advantage of it

[LZIp]

I'm starting to think the alumni are looking at this program one way, and non alumni another (with exceptions). Just an observation.

Elaborate.

[Zip_ME87]

Why do I think complaining and giving specifics is more productive than just complaining? Is that a serious question?

Complaining about specifics is still complaining.

[cjapsu]

Making it to the NCAA tourney is an accomplishment in itself. If we did it with an at-large bid, that'd be equally, if not more impressive than winning the AQ bid.

That said, its been the team's goal for some time to make a run in the tourney... and I would not expect them to strive for any less than that. Are we proud of what we've done? Yes. Are we satisfied? No. Thats the difference between where we are and where we want to be.

Your reply is exactly the sort of "response gauge" I had in mind when I started the topic. There's a lot of "faux negativity" around here (that is, comments that I don't necessarily see as negative being portrayed as such by other commentators) that leads me to be believe that it's okay not to be satisfied with the season's results (although I do think you'd be a fool to not be proud of these guy!!).

I loved every minute of the MAC tournament and looked forward to all our regular season games. I admit, I think I got a bit of false hope after seeing the team respond to AA's suspension in the MACC and thought we had a legitimate chance against VCU but I'm still extremely proud of the team and being able to hang another banner in the JAR next season.

[akronzips71]

What I don't think has been mentioned is that KD has built teams for the purpose of winning the MAC.

Because winning the MAC is the ONLY way to get to the Dance or NIT for MAC teams.

So if you look at recruiting, especially the last couple of years, he has gone for height above all else (no pun intended). NO team in the MAC has a 7 footer backed up by a 6'11".

Our wings are tall. All 6'8' or 6'7".

We recruited Reggie and Jake for their height and ability to shoot outside, NOT as slashing athletic small forwards.

Our PGs have lately been guys who can bring the ball up and defend, they are NOT DJ Cooper types who sink 30 footers and score 2000 points in a career. And in general we don't face Earl Monroe in the MAC, so we don't need to be built to defend that. Our big can usually neutralize MAC quality guards.

So the point I am making is that I think our teams have been build to beat the people we need to beat, namely the MAC.

IF KD had been looking to build a tournament team, he might have looked at different players. And it is at least possible that THOSE players might not have matched up well against MAC teams.

I note that the only MAC team that we have not matched up well against lately is Buffalo. DIG can analyze why they got up 20 on us, then beat us in the second game, and why every time we face them we are seriously worried. It just seems that the way our teams have been built, they are not a good match against Buffalo.

So that raises the question, what do you want Coach to do? Build a team that can beat OOC high majors, but lose in the MAC? OK, I know we want both, but which is the model you follow.

Remember, NASCAR cars are different than Indy cars, and each car is tuned for the specific track and driver and weather conditions. But we can not hire and fire players in the middle of the season, or before each game.

So just food for thought.

[johnnyzip84]

What I don't think has been mentioned is that KD has built teams for the purpose of winning the MAC.

Because winning the MAC is the ONLY way to get to the Dance or NIT for MAC teams.

So if you look at recruiting, especially the last couple of years, he has gone for height above all else (no pun intended). NO team in the MAC has a 7 footer backed up by a 6'11".

Our wings are tall. All 6'8' or 6'7".

We recruited Reggie and Jake for their height and ability to shoot outside, NOT as slashing athletic small forwards.

Our PGs have lately been guys who can bring the ball up and defend, they are NOT DJ Cooper types who sink 30 footers and score 2000 points in a career. And in general we don't face Earl Monroe in the MAC, so we don't need to be built to defend that. Our big can usually neutralize MAC quality guards.

So the point I am making is that I think our teams have been build to beat the people we need to beat, namely the MAC.

IF KD had been looking to build a tournament team, he might have looked at different players. And it is at least possible that THOSE players might not have matched up well against MAC teams.

I note that the only MAC team that we have not matched up well against lately is Buffalo. DIG can analyze why they got up 20 on us, then beat us in the second game, and why every time we face them we are seriously worried. It just seems that the way our teams have been built, they are not a good match against Buffalo.

So that raises the question, what do you want Coach to do? Build a team that can beat OOC high majors, but lose in the MAC? OK, I know we want both, but which is the model you follow.

Good points, az71. It's a proven cliche that guards win games at this time of the year. If we could land ONE point guard who is talented enough to control tempo, distribute and provide a scoring threat (like Cooper at OU, Huffman at K.E.N.T., Boykins at EMU, etc) the Zips could very well take that "next step". Until then, we're not likely to see much more than playing for MAC championships regardless of how awesome Tree is (and he is!).

ps. I think I may have heard you talk to Joe Dunn a few times this season on 1350 am. Was that you?

[akronzips71]

Good points, az71. It's a proven cliche that guards win games at this time of the year. If we could land ONE point guard who is talented enough to control tempo, distribute and provide a scoring threat (like Cooper at OU, Huffman at K.E.N.T., Boykins at EMU, etc) the Zips could very well take that "next step". Until then, we're not likely to see much more than playing for MAC championships regardless of how awesome Tree is (and he is!).

ps. I think I may have heard you talk to Joe Dunn a few times this season on 1350 am. Was that you?

Not unless JD was broadcasting from New York!

[johnnyzip84]

Not unless JD was broadcasting from New York!

Interesting. There is someone near NYC who listen's to 1350 am on iHeart radio. He is a Yankees fan (knew you liked the G-Men). I obviously made a bad assumption

[akronzips71]

Interesting. There is someone near NYC who listen's to 1350 am on iHeart radio. He is a Yankees fan (knew you liked the G-Men). I obviously made a bad assumption

Giants fan for life.

Do not like Baseball, although I did go to the 1963 World Series. I didn't know yet that I don't like baseball.

[Dave in Green]

@akronzips71, high-major teams almost always beat MAC teams. Coach Dambrot's vision of building a high-major-type team at UA would serve a dual purpose of making the Zips dominant in the MAC and able to play toe-to-toe with high-major teams. What's happened is that our frontcourt is closer to high-major than our backcourt, which is good but not great. The Zips need Tree-quality guards to complete the package. It's hard as heck for a mid-major like Akron that's never won an NCAA tournament game to recruit high-major players at every position. In my opinion Coach Dambrot is doing a pretty amazing job of bringing in higher and higher level recruits considering what he's been given by UA to work with. Adding an all-star PG to the equation would allow the Zips to have a real chance at running the table in the MAC and winning NCAA tournament games. So far there is nothing to indicate that a high-level PG is considering UA.

[Dr Z]

If we could land ONE point guard who is talented enough to control tempo, distribute and provide a scoring threat (like Cooper at OU, Huffman at K.E.N.T., Boykins at EMU, etc) the Zips could very well take that "next step". Until then, we're not likely to see much more than playing for MAC championships regardless of how awesome Tree is (and he is!).

Bingo! I couldn't agree more.

Adding an all-star PG to the equation would allow the Zips to have a real chance at running the table in the MAC and winning NCAA tournament games. So far there is nothing to indicate that a high-level PG is considering UA.

And double bingo.

[johnnyzip84]

Giants fan for life.

Do not like Baseball, although I did go to the 1963 World Series. I didn't know yet that I don't like baseball.

Since we're going off on a baseball tangent, I was born on July 6, 1961. Growing up in Pittsburgh, my dad was a HUGE Pirates fan. Bill Mazeroski hit his famous World Series winning home run against the Yankees on October 13, 1960. You're a lawyer, so you can deduce the rest of the story

[akronzips71]

Since we're going off on a baseball tangent, I was born on July 6, 1961. Growing up in Pittsburgh, my dad was a HUGE Pirates fan. Bill Mazeroski hit his famous World Series winning home run against the Yankees on October 13, 1960. You're a lawyer, so you can deduce the rest of the story

I am not a lawyer, but I don't need to be one to figure out that celebration.

I was crying when he hit that shot.

And I think it was the following year that Bobby Richardson caught that line drive that was on the way UP to end the Series. I was delivering newspapers and listening on the radio.

[RootforRoo44]

Maybe the U should start supporting its players and not abandoning them (Q) if they want to take that next step. Money is one thing, but having those in the university that don't support athletics is another.

[taxpayer]

Here is Akron/KD's challenges as I see it:

1. Add an offensive specialist to your staff or delegate if that talent is already on the bench.

2. League - competition is at best coming from 3 teams historically. Akron, Can't State & OU. Another problem associated with the

MAC is playing the majority of our schedule against smaller, inferior competition. That's not KD's fault it's the MAC's

fault. Zips get false sense of security playing inferior competition in mid size arena's with smaller crowds. When they go

to major arena's and teams courts it's a bigger adjustment than you think.

3. JAR - The Zips did their best to keep up with the Jone's with their new player lounges and weight room but let's be

serious here. The JAR is the worse arena in the MAC. By a large margin in fact. This year attendance was

encouraging and the players and athletic marketing department deserve credit for that. I've been in better high school gyms.

4. Budget - We can all "Think Bigger" all we want. Either Akron goes on a major fundraising campaign or what we see is what we get. Better conference, better RPI's, better players need a bigger budget. What comes first, a better facility

or access to better players. Playing in a nice facility can only help. Right now KD is out recruiting the MAC with a high school gym as a facility.

5. Priority - Better facility? Better OCC schedule? Short term has to be a better OCC schedule while designing and

financing a new facility.

6. Marketing - I understand the bobble heads and having some players speaking to students in dorms and clubs and asking

their fellow students to come and support this years team was one young marketing man's ideas. Give

him a raise and give him a 5 figure budget tomorrow. He produced immediate, tangible results.

This year showed what is possibile. To keep climbing means to increase UA's comittment to this program.

[LZIp]

Just getting to the tournament isnt enough. WINNING in the tournament will take not only our athletics, but our University and all of the enrollment goals we have to the next level.

Example A)

After Florida Gulf Coast knocked off Georgetown yesterday, hits to Florida Gulf Coast's "Campus Life" page was up 690% yesterday compared to the day before. Hits to Florida Gulf Coast's "Admissions" page was up 431% yesterday compared to the day before. Those are not typos, either.

[GP1]

Just getting to the tournament isnt enough. WINNING in the tournament will take not only our athletics, but our University and all of the enrollment goals we have to the next level.

Example A)

After Florida Gulf Coast knocked off Georgetown yesterday, hits to Florida Gulf Coast's "Campus Life" page was up 690% yesterday compared to the day before. Hits to Florida Gulf Coast's "Admissions" page was up 431% yesterday compared to the day before. Those are not typos, either.

My guess is getting enrollment up is a little more complicated than that.

[LZIp]

My guess is getting enrollment up is a little more complicated than that.

You think? If you dont think having successful athletics doesnt help increase enrollment, you are very naive.

More proof from the very own VCU: http://espn.go.com/blog/playbook/dollars/tag/_/name/vcu

Even more proof from George Mason: http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballn...f-the-court-too

Even more proof from Butler: http://www.butlersports.com/sports/m-baskb...eases/040111aab

I can go all day...

[cjapsu]

But does Akron enrollment go anywhere with a one-and-done in the tournament? We get national exposure but does the beatdown actually make people go "WTF - Akron sucks?" I would think any news is good news but maybe I'm wrong...

[LZIp]

But does Akron enrollment go anywhere with a one-and-done in the tournament? We get national exposure but does the beatdown actually make people go "WTF - Akron sucks?" I would think any news is good news but maybe I'm wrong...

Thats a good question. It may help locally, because making the tournament gives us an edge over the locals (CSU, Can't State, etc). I dont see it helping in national recruiting or attracting out of state students, however.

[RACER]

kd is bringing in much better players now compared to even two years ago. except for zeke. johnson made first team all ohio. gladden turned down offers from Xavier, and wake forest to play at akron.I seriuously doubt if kd would have brought in a jc point guard; if he did not think he could play right away. we are the only b-ball school that has a coach that gives us a stable program.other mac coaches either get fired for losing,or leave if they have one good season.

[LZIp]

kd is bringing in much better players now compared to even two years ago. except for zeke. johnson made first team all ohio. gladden turned down offers from Xavier, and wake forest to play at akron.I seriuously doubt if kd would have brought in a jc point guard; if he did not think he could play right away. we are the only b-ball school that has a coach that gives us a stable program.other mac coaches either get fired for losing,or leave if they have one good season.

I agree with that.

[ZachTheZip]

Thats a good question. It may help locally, because making the tournament gives us an edge over the locals (CSU, Can't State, etc). I dont see it helping in national recruiting or attracting out of state students, however.

I think that's backwards.

it hurts most locally, because there's already a pre-existing bias that gets confirmed, but nationally it gets the university's name out to millions of people who otherwise would have never heard of it. It especially helps that we've been there three times in the last five years. Up that to making regular appearances and you become a nationally known university. prospective students already know who you are and aren't as quick to throw out material you send them because you're not just some random school from a place they've never heard of.

Recruiting for athletics is another story. Still, it might not happen as fast as we would like, but by establishing ourselves as a clearly dominant team in the MAC long-term, you can out-recruit other MAC teams competing with us that are on more temporary upswings. It takes a lot of luck to win an NCAA tournament game when you're consistently seeded 12 or worse, but you can't win any if you don't make it, and making it every year gives you a shot every year so that it will happen eventually.

[zippy5]

What I don't think has been mentioned is that KD has built teams for the purpose of winning the MAC.

Because winning the MAC is the ONLY way to get to the Dance or NIT for MAC teams.

So if you look at recruiting, especially the last couple of years, he has gone for height above all else (no pun intended). NO team in the MAC has a 7 footer backed up by a 6'11".

Our wings are tall. All 6'8' or 6'7".

We recruited Reggie and Jake for their height and ability to shoot outside, NOT as slashing athletic small forwards.

Our PGs have lately been guys who can bring the ball up and defend, they are NOT DJ Cooper types who sink 30 footers and score 2000 points in a career. And in general we don't face Earl Monroe in the MAC, so we don't need to be built to defend that. Our big can usually neutralize MAC quality guards.

So the point I am making is that I think our teams have been build to beat the people we need to beat, namely the MAC.

IF KD had been looking to build a tournament team, he might have looked at different players. And it is at least possible that THOSE players might not have matched up well against MAC teams.

I note that the only MAC team that we have not matched up well against lately is Buffalo. DIG can analyze why they got up 20 on us, then beat us in the second game, and why every time we face them we are seriously worried. It just seems that the way our teams have been built, they are not a good match against Buffalo.

So that raises the question, what do you want Coach to do? Build a team that can beat OOC high majors, but lose in the MAC? OK, I know we want both, but which is the model you follow.

Remember, NASCAR cars are different than Indy cars, and each car is tuned for the specific track and driver and weather conditions. But we can not hire and fire players in the middle of the season, or before each game.

So just food for thought.

Teams that can win in the tournament should and can chew up and spit out MAC teams. If we can build a team that wins in the tournament, we will surely beat the rest of the MAC as well. I think Thursday showed us that we're a little further from where we want to be than we thought, but I think we're still close. On one hand, we were (very) shorthanded. On the other hand, VCU is still a better team than us if we were at full strength. Bad matchup for us. We're getting there, just hope we keep making steps forward, and none backward.

[ksu sucks]

kd is bringing in much better players now compared to even two years ago. except for zeke. johnson made first team all ohio. gladden turned down offers from Xavier, and wake forest to play at akron.I seriuously doubt if kd would have brought in a jc point guard; if he did not think he could play right away. we are the only b-ball school that has a coach that gives us a stable program.other mac coaches either get fired for losing,or leave if they have one good season.

Yes. Isaiah Johnson also had an offer from Xavier. We are at the top of the MAC in terms of recruiting.