Middle Tennessee Game

[Captain Kangaroo]

Some big road wins would be great. Some NCAA wins would be great. But it's never, never, never going to matter.

Big road wins against BCS schools...wins in the NCAA tourney...these will never, never, never matter?

Tell that to Coach Dambrot. I want to see if he agrees with you.

[Hilltopper]

I think what you're saying in the first part of this post is what bothers me the most. Most of the argument against what I'm saying right now seems to center around the national perception of our program. What I'm trying to say is - that doesn't matter, and it will never matter.

Look at our soccer program. They've been very strong for a long time now. They have a national championship for crying out loud. Shouldn't they, in the soccer community, have a strong "national perception"? Well look at the draw they got and tell me how that worked out for them.

Some big road wins would be great. Some NCAA wins would be great. But it's never, never, never going to matter. Except for rare exceptions, we're a one-bid league in basketball. What if we weren't guaranteed that one team, do you think the NCAA would take any MAC teams most years? No way. Hell we got screwed out of the NIT one year.

It sucks, but it's reality. What I'm trying to say is that winning our conference is still a great accomplishment. Did anyone hear Dambrot on 1350 yesterday? He talked about how they have great respect for their conference, and winning the MAC was still the #1 goal. If you support the program, then that's what you should support too.

Excellent post LOZ. The soccer analogy is right on the money. I don't follow the Zips because I think they are going to win a national championship. I follow them because they are my team. I am proud to wear my "Blue and Gold colored glasses". The Zips don't owe me anything.

[legendofzippy]

Big road wins against BCS schools...wins in the NCAA tourney...these will never, never, never matter?

Tell that to Coach Dambrot. I want to see if he agrees with you.

My point is that it won't matter with regard to the national perception of the program. We should celebrate those as big wins, but they're not more than that. Again, it sucks, but it's the life of a mid-major.

[GP1]

Big road wins against BCS schools...wins in the NCAA tourney...these will never, never, never matter?

Tell that to Coach Dambrot. I want to see if he agrees with you.

Worrying about national perception is one of those things that I find difficult to do being a Zips fan. In fact, I could care less. I understand that an ncaa win and bcs wins bring some positive perception to the program. How much and for how long? I guess that depends on how many there are, how far apart they are spread and other factors going on around them.

I mostly worry about sustained success. All of the other bling will happen if we have sustained success. We beat MSU two years ago. Are we in a better position today than two years ago?...We'll find out the results to that question at the end of the year.

For me, it's always the App State question. Is App State better because they beat Michigan in 2007. I've posted this before. The answer is a resounding NO. They have become progressively less successful since that day. They are now sitting at 3-8 for the season. Bling wins are pretty, but if the foundation isn't under them, they are worthless. If a BCS win was the foundation for the future of App State football, that foundation was sand.

Our foundation is strong: good preparation, good recruiting, good game day execution, good game planning, good effort. What is my biggest worry about Zips MBB? I've been posting for years. The lack of player development. It has always been an area KD has struggled with and I don't think that is unfair criticism at this point. Good players don't take big leaps in ability under him. Specifically, a player almost never takes a big leap between his freshman and sophomore years. We are seeing that now with our point guard situation. Big time players and big time coaches make the leap between year one and two a large leap. I understand the AA argument, but even if he was on the team, we would have still needed better production out of the #2 PG.

[skip-zip]

Some big road wins would be great. Some NCAA wins would be great. But it's never, never, never going to matter. Except for rare exceptions, we're a one-bid league in basketball.

This is an interesting statement,, because you pretty much answer your own question.

We're a one-bid league right now because nobody has recently produced the big wins to change that.

If Akron had beaten both MTSU and St. Mary's, we'd have an infinitely better chance of making a case for an at-large bid if the rest of the season goes well. You can't dispute that.

[Captain Kangaroo]

For me, it's always the App State question. Is App State better because they beat Michigan in 2007. I've posted this before. The answer is a resounding NO.

Appalachian State is far better off than had they not beaten Michigan. They now have a part of college football history. Every year when such an upset looms, people talk about the Appalachian State win over Michigan. They will for decades to come. Who cares if they are 3-8 right now, they got Raquel Welch in her prime. Everyone else got Oprah. If I got Raquel in her prime, and I'm with Oprah now, I am way ahead of every other FCS Chubby-Chaser.

Is Valparaiso better today because they made it to the Sweet 16? Who cares. They are a part of college basketball history. Two decades later they still show Bryce Drew's shot. And they will for another couple decades. That shot has done more to raise awareness of their University than all their Horizon League wins combined.

Do K.e.n.t fans relish their trip to the Elite 8? Or do they relish their MAC championships? Which is the better memory? When Antonio Gates brags to his team mates about his college basketball career, does he brag about beating Eastern Michigan, or Pitt?

The list goes on.

[Captain Kangaroo]

We're a one-bid league right now because nobody has recently produced the big wins to change that.

If Akron had beaten both MTSU and St. Mary's, we'd have an infinitely better chance of making a case for an at-large bid if the rest of the season goes well. You can't dispute that.

I like succinct, accurate posts.

[legendofzippy]

Worrying about national perception is one of those things that I find difficult to do being a Zips fan. In fact, I could care less. I understand that an ncaa win and bcs wins bring some positive perception to the program. How much and for how long? I guess that depends on how many there are, how far apart they are spread and other factors going on around them.

I mostly worry about sustained success. All of the other bling will happen if we have sustained success. We beat MSU two years ago. Are we in a better position today than two years ago?...We'll find out the results to that question at the end of the year.

For me, it's always the App State question. Is App State better because they beat Michigan in 2007. I've posted this before. The answer is a resounding NO. They have become progressively less successful since that day. They are now sitting at 3-8 for the season. Bling wins are pretty, but if the foundation isn't under them, they are worthless. If a BCS win was the foundation for the future of App State football, that foundation was sand.

Our foundation is strong: good preparation, good recruiting, good game day execution, good game planning, good effort. What is my biggest worry about Zips MBB? I've been posting for years. The lack of player development. It has always been an area KD has struggled with and I don't think that is unfair criticism at this point. Good players don't take big leaps in ability under him. Specifically, a player almost never takes a big leap between his freshman and sophomore years. We are seeing that now with our point guard situation. Big time players and big time coaches make the leap between year one and two a large leap. I understand the AA argument, but even if he was on the team, we would have still needed better production out of the #2 PG.

Agreed. Yes, App State is an interesting one. That one will be remembered for a long time, but what did it really do for long-term success? Why would someone they're recruiting today be influenced by a win 6 years ago? The runs Can't and Valpo made were impressive - but ask the average 20 year old across the nation about those wins and enjoy the blank stares.

Let's go very recent. Belmont just upset UNC. They're 3-1, UNC is 2-1. Guess which team is ranked in both polls, and guess which falls under "others receiving votes". Small schools beat big schools in college basketball all the time, and it gets lost in the news cycle almost immediately. Earning respect is almost impossible for small schools. Gonzaga has been very good for a very long time, and they were ridiculed for the #1 seed (that they deserved) last season. Someone mentioned UK losing in the first round of the NIT... what did that lead to? Perhaps the greatest recruiting class ever. It's not a level playing field.

We'll get one of those wins eventually and we'll enjoy the heck out of it. Within 48 hours (or less) it will be gone from the national headlines. Watch any championship post-game show and see how long it is before the "can they repeat?" question comes up.

The success we're enjoying right now is good enough for me. Keep getting to that championship, keep bringing in good recruits, and I'm happy. Think right now if our football team was in the situation. Good lord we'd lose our minds.

[UAZipster0305]

The problem is, UA has outgrown the MAC for MSoccer, MBBall, and Track and soon to be WBBall and WTennis. The MAC SOS severely cripples our NCAAT prospects. We need to get out of the MAC ASAP.

Whereas power programs in the big conferences can use the OOC as a preseason and grow the strength, conditioning, and performance of their teams by beating up on weaker programs in preparation for the stronger conference season, Zips MSoccer and MBBall has to come hot out of the gate and win early in the season against equal or better matched opponents. When this doesn't happen, as fans we are disappointed because we know what it means in terms of NCAAT prospects and national perception, which are often crippled at the beginning of the season. Even when ripping through the MAC with nothing but W's, we are always met with the "you didn't play anyone" excuse at the national level. With MBBall, I always wonder how the NCAAT prospects and national perception would be different had we not lost to X and Y earlier in the season and who we are now clearly better than. This is the source of our frustration! The OOC is the most important part of our season because it sets the stage for the NCAAT. MSoccer and MBBall are talented enough to sleep walk through the MAC and be perfectly fine so long as they turn it on for the MACC.

OSU Football is having the exact same problem this year. The B10 is too weak to justify OSU as a National Championship participant when any two other programs are undefeated. OSU didn't lose in their OOC earlier in the season, but they can't fall back on the strength of the B10 to carry them at the national level anymore. These issues for OSU Football are exaggerated because the real playoff system for college football is currently only two teams. So, instead of getting a poor seed or no national respect, they just get shut out of the opportunity to play for the National Championship.

[Zipgrad01]

I think what you're saying in the first part of this post is what bothers me the most. Most of the argument against what I'm saying right now seems to center around the national perception of our program. What I'm trying to say is - that doesn't matter, and it will never matter.

Look at our soccer program. They've been very strong for a long time now. They have a national championship for crying out loud. Shouldn't they, in the soccer community, have a strong "national perception"? Well look at the draw they got and tell me how that worked out for them.

Some big road wins would be great. Some NCAA wins would be great. But it's never, never, never going to matter. Except for rare exceptions, we're a one-bid league in basketball. What if we weren't guaranteed that one team, do you think the NCAA would take any MAC teams most years? No way. Hell we got screwed out of the NIT one year.

It sucks, but it's reality. What I'm trying to say is that winning our conference is still a great accomplishment. Did anyone hear Dambrot on 1350 yesterday? He talked about how they have great respect for their conference, and winning the MAC was still the #1 goal. If you support the program, then that's what you should support too.

I think you are off on the soccer programs national (or international) perception. People around the country know we are a powerhouse. People in Europe know we are a soccer powerhouse. We got shafted in the seeding because we are a no-name school.

Of course Dambrot is going to say that winning the MAC is their #1 goal. Right now it is the only way the Zips can make the NCAA tourney. Why? Because we lose all of our big non-conference games before the MAC schedule kicks in.

Right now I am not concerned with Akron's national perception. Right now I am concerned with Akron's perception in NE Ohio and Ohio in general. We need to win the hearts and minds of Joe Akron and the student body before we become Butler or Gonzaga and that is exactly who coach Dambrot wants us to become. We wont win Joe Akron or the student population until we start consistently beating name programs in our non-conference schedule and then have a little success in the tourney. The key is consistency. We always seem to poo-poo down our leg after we doing something really good (ala beat Mississippi State or get in the top 25). Every time we do something good we cant handle the success and then lose everyones interest in the mean time.

[Dave in Green]

It's pretty easy to sit in front of the computer and speculate about all kinds of things while enjoying your favorite beverage. I should know; I do it all the time. Speculating about how well Coach Dambrot develops players can be entertaining. We can pick out various examples and discuss for hours.

Zeke is a good example. He came to UA highly rated but underdeveloped, and it was expected that the Zips coaching staff would develop him into a star. Yet there was very little development from Zeke between his freshman and sophomore seasons. Why not? If Zeke had never addressed it himself, we'd still be speculating. But we know from Zeke's own mouth that he didn't have a passion for basketball. He was just going through the motions and coasting on his size and athletic ability to have fun blocking shots. Zeke has told us that he didn't really start developing his own passion for basketball until sometime in his junior season. He then made a major leap in development between his junior and senior seasons. Lesson? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

LBJ is another good example. He had a passion for basketball from an early age and wanted to be developed. He connected with Coach Dambrot in a youth basketball clinic and was put on the path to good development from the earliest stages, continuing on into high school. LBJ has developed into arguably the world's best basketball player. But he's never satisfied and continues to want to develop. Who does he turn to for development advice? We don't need to speculate because there are stories written every year about how LBJ still relies on Coach Dambrot to help his development. Lesson? A thirsty horse doesn't need to be led to water.

So toss the above observations into the hopper while speculating about whether or not Coach Dambrot has the ability to develop players who are willing to be developed, and whether or not it's realistic to believe that any coach can force development on a player who's not willing to put in the hard work required to develop.

[taxpayer]

Seriously, did most of you expect the Zips who lost 3 starters and a reliable contributor from last years team to travel across the country, play a top 40 team in their facility at 3am (Zip time) in the morning and come out winners? Seriously? I didn't foresee a victory but I didn't foresee a 20 point loss either.

Then the Zips hop on a plane, jet lagged practice for two days and hop another plane and unfortunately have our pg's shoot like they are blind, have Q turn it over 7, yes 7 times and have Tree unbelievably disappear. MTSU was just good enough that those factors had us lose again. I still believe the Zips can be a very good team if and that's a big IF they can stick together during this rough spot and work out their shortcomings during practice and the Malone game and then again in practice for 9 days after Thanksgiving prior to taking on CSU at their place. Last year's team had good internal leadership, this year's version needs the same.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, KD can push, prod & reason with the guys but it's up to the players to buy into practicing hard & developing an unselfish attitude. It has to develop quickly as C A N T, Toledo and oU seem to be ready to challenge us. The answers are in the locker room. I hope they come out.

[ZipsBurgh]

Seriously, did most of you expect the Zips who lost 3 starters and a reliable contributor from last years team to travel across the country, play a top 40 team in their facility at 3am (Zip time) in the morning and come out winners? Seriously? I didn't foresee a victory but I didn't foresee a 20 point loss either.

Then the Zips hop on a plane, jet lagged practice for two days and hop another plane and unfortunately have our pg's shoot like they are blind, have Q turn it over 7, yes 7 times and have Tree unbelievably disappear. MTSU was just good enough that those factors had us lose again. I still believe the Zips can be a very good team if and that's a big IF they can stick together during this rough spot and work out their shortcomings during practice and the Malone game and then again in practice for 9 days after Thanksgiving prior to taking on CSU at their place. Last year's team had good internal leadership, this year's version needs the same.

You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink, KD can push, prod & reason with the guys but it's up to the players to buy into practicing hard & developing an unselfish attitude. It has to develop quickly as C A N T, Toledo and oU seem to be ready to challenge us. The answers are in the locker room. I hope they come out.

The travel was definitely tough, which worries me a little bit about the South Carolina game. Playing there 3 days after spending an extended period in Hawaii at Christmas will not be easy.

[Z.I.P.]

The travel was definitely tough, which worries me a little bit about the South Carolina game. Playing there 3 days after spending an extended period in Hawaii at Christmas will not be easy.

I understand they offered to play the game in Honolulu, and Keith chose to play the game in Columbia SC -- for more $$. Comments from insiders welcome?

[GP1]

Lesson? You can lead a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.

LBJ is another good example. He had a passion for basketball from an early age and wanted to be developed. He connected with Coach Dambrot in a youth basketball clinic and was put on the path to good development from the earliest stages, continuing on into high school. LBJ has developed into arguably the world's best basketball player. But he's never satisfied and continues to want to develop. Who does he turn to for development advice? We don't need to speculate because there are stories written every year about how LBJ still relies on Coach Dambrot to help his development. Lesson? A thirsty horse doesn't need to be led to water.

Or, you recruited the wrong horse. Zeke may not have been a natural, but there was ability there that never seemed to get developed to the fullest. Visit My Website It's was almost impossible for him not to play in the NBA.

The LBJ one is interesting. I credit the maker with his basketball ability. He has something about him that can't be taught. A true natural. LBJ is also a master with the media, with the exception of "The Decision". He always says all the right things and presents in a positive manner. I'm not saying he doesn't stay in touch with KD and they might talk basketball, but the amount of development would surely be in question.

[ZipsBurgh]

I understand they offered to play the game in Honolulu, and Keith chose to play the game in Columbia SC -- for more $$. Comments from insiders welcome?

SC being in Hawaii, too makes it a little better. It could still be a tough game, though. If the $$ is true I'm totally fine with it haha. Plus, the 4pm eastern start time is better for me than a Hawaiian time could be!

[GP1]

Agreed. Yes, App State is an interesting one. That one will be remembered for a long time, but what did it really do for long-term success? Why would someone they're recruiting today be influenced by a win 6 years ago? The runs Can't and Valpo made were impressive - but ask the average 20 year old across the nation about those wins and enjoy the blank stares.

Excellent point. A 12th grader doesn't care about something that happened six years ago when they were in 6th grade. The recruiting competition is for that person. Some of the seniors they have on their team, that is now going 3-7, may have been impressed, but what are they doing now. It's as bad as the guys I see at Wake games wearing their Orange Bowl shirt from eight years ago, or how ever long ago it was. Nobody cares anymore. We don't live in that kind of society.

The Zips basketball team was built on winning and bringing kids to UofA who want to win foremost. It certainly isn't the great weather, arena or any of the nonsense we are supposed to believe is important. Winning is important and cures a lot of problems. It's the strongest of foundations.

[GP1]

Appalachian State is far better off than had they not beaten Michigan. They now have a part of college football history. Every year when such an upset looms, people talk about the Appalachian State win over Michigan. They will for decades to come. Who cares if they are 3-8 right now, they got Raquel Welch in her prime. Everyone else got Oprah. If I got Raquel in her prime, and I'm with Oprah now, I am way ahead of every other FCS Chubby-Chaser.

Then why aren't they?

My guess is even Raquel Welch gets old. Show this photo to 90% of the posters on this board, they say, "Look at that piece of ass". Show the same photo to an 18 year old, they say, "Who's that lady in the clown mask?". Makes me think is one of my favorite Sopranos scenes. Paulie nails it right at the 2 minute mark Video.

One of the great myths of college athletics is you have to pander to the memories of old people. The reality is, you have to get young people to want to come to your school and young people are impressed by the present, not the past. They are impressed by winning. The more they win today, the less the old people care about the past.

[Dave in Green]

Or, you recruited the wrong horse.

I hope you're not implying that Coach Dambrot shouldn't have recruited Zeke.

Zeke may not have been a natural, but there was ability there that never seemed to get developed to the fullest.

That's what I said. Zeke was never developed to the fullest because he self-admittedly resisted being developed to the fullest until late in his college career

Visit My Website It's was almost impossible for him not to play in the NBA.

"Almost impossible" is a stretch. While 7-footers have an advantage in making the NBA, they don't get a free pass. Zeke still has a shot at the NBA. But he has to make up for his previous lack of focus on basketball that stunted his development. He has to prove to NBA teams that he's serious about developing his game to the best of his ability, which he hasn't done to date.

The LBJ one is interesting. I credit the maker with his basketball ability. He has something about him that can't be taught. A true natural. LBJ is also a master with the media, with the exception of "The Decision". He always says all the right things and presents in a positive manner. I'm not saying he doesn't stay in touch with KD and they might talk basketball, but the amount of development would surely be in question.

It's good to question everything, especially internet forum posts. In this case, I've seen way too much evidence to suggest that Coach Dambrot is one of the few people in the world who LBJ comes to for advice on improving his game to doubt that it's true.

[skip-zip]

Seriously, did most of you expect the Zips who lost 3 starters and a reliable contributor from last years team to travel across the country, play a top 40 team in their facility at 3am (Zip time) in the morning and come out winners? Seriously?

We're just tired of seeing our Zips squander every opportunity to record a big OOC win. And we've had plenty of them.

I don't understand this, or any of the other "do you expect the Zips to win every game?" reactions.

[Dave in Green]

#16 Florida, playing at home, beat up on MTSU tonight, 79-59.

[Dave in Green]

We're just tired of seeing our Zips squander every opportunity to record a big OOC win. And we've had plenty of them.

I don't understand this, or any of the other "do you expect the Zips to win every game?" reactions.

@skip-zip, I didn't see this when you posted it. How can you say in one post that you appreciate the Zips upsetting Mississippi State two years ago and then say here that the Zips squander every opportunity to record a big OOC win? You can't have it both ways.

[Zips Win!]

The problem is, UA has outgrown the MAC for MSoccer, MBBall, and Track and soon to be WBBall and WTennis. The MAC SOS severely cripples our NCAAT prospects. We need to get out of the MAC ASAP.

And on what planet is there another conference that the Zips can compete for championships in?

[GoZips]

The travel was definitely tough, which worries me a little bit about the South Carolina game. Playing there 3 days after spending an extended period in Hawaii at Christmas will not be easy.

I understand they offered to play the game in Honolulu, and Keith chose to play the game in Columbia SC -- for more $$. Comments from insiders welcome?

Z.I.P., I am surprised at your comment. You know full well that the University of Hawai'i was looking for a home game.

At no time was playing South Carolina even mentioned. The Zips game at South Carolina was brokered by ESPN after

negotiations to play at UH fell through. Reason as far as I know was money. ESPN offered the Zips the opportunity to play in

the Charleston Classic and a ESPN Tip Off game this year against St. Mary's. A much better deal for Akron than staying in

Hawai'i for a couple more days and playing the 'Bows.

Tip: Both Akron and South Carolina will suffer the same jet lag as the Zips fly straight to South Carolina with the Gamecocks.

[tomzip]

@skip-zip, I didn't see this when you posted it. How can you say in one post that you appreciate the Zips upsetting Mississippi State two years ago and then say here that the Zips squander every opportunity to record a big OOC win? You can't have it both ways.

The MSU game was a game that they took us lightly, the other OOC "Big" game was FSU in the NIT if I recall, again a team not wanting to be in the NIT played at a sub level. The teams that are prepared for Akron..St. Mary's, Oral Roberts, MTSU, Creighton.. beat us almost everytime, these are the games we have to start winning.

My thoughts on Zeke, his development was hurt when he lost our low post coach to OSU.

Last thoughts on KD, a friend of mine who isn't necessarily a Zips fan, but follows the game from high school to the pro's asked an interesting question....is he another "Marty Schottenheimer"? Gets us to the dance, but can never win the big one?...I had no answer except I hope not..One of these days we break through, was my thought